Preamble

The House met at half-past Two o'clock

PRAYERS

[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]

PRIVATE BUSINESS

BRITISH WATERWAYS BILL

Lords Amendments considered and agreed to.

LONDON TRANSPORT BILL

Bill read the Third time and passed.

BRISTOL CORPORATION BILL [Lords] (By Order)

Order for Second Reading read.

Bill to be read a Second time upon Tuesday next at Seven o'clock.

BRITISH ALUMINIUM (SALTBURN PIER) ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL

Bill considered to be read the Third time tomorrow.

PETITION

INDUSTRIAL RELATIONS BILL

Mr. Houghton: Mr. Speaker, I ask leave to present a Petition on behalf of the Trades Union Congress—[HON. MEMBERS:, "Hear, hear!"]—signed by all members of the General Council and over 500,000 workers throughout the land, all of whom are making a contribution to the economic strength and welfare of this country.
The Petition sheweth
That the Industrial Relations Bill will disrupt the orderly workings of industrial relations in Britain, prejudice the essential activities of democratically constituted trade unions, and deprive workpeople both collectively and individually of rights which are fundamental in a free society.
As I hope to catch your eye in the debate on the Third Reading later today, Mr. Speaker, I need not enlarge on the Petition of the T.U.C. against the Bill, except to quote the conclusion, which reads:
Wherefore your petitioners pray that the Industrial Relations Bill should be withdrawn"—

Hon. Members: Hear, hear! Where are the Tories?

Mr. Houghton: —which there is still time to do.
And your Petitioners, as in duty bound, will ever pray.

To lie upon the Table.

Oral Answers to Questions — AVIATION SUPPLY

Research and Development

Mr. Carter: asked the Minister of Aviation Supply if he will make a statement on future policy as it affects his departmental responsibilities in the field of research and development.

The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Aviation Supply (Mr. David Price): The Government's policy on research and development in the aerospace field continues to be directed to the effective fulfilment of military and civil needs. As announced in the White Paper on the Reorganisation of Central Government, the departmental organisation is currently being reviewed.

Mr. Carter: I thank the hon. Gentleman for that reply, but is he aware that as a result of the Government's chaotic policies regarding aviation, many thousands of workers in the Government's aviation research and development institutions are now in peril of losing their jobs? Will he take urgent steps to reassure these people and tell them that they are not to be thrown on the scrap-heap like the rest of the ¾ million workers already there as a result of Government policies?

Mr. Price: The hon. Gentleman is making a lot of assumptions which are in no way warranted. I remind him that in the current financial year, 1970–71, on our Department's account about £258 million will have been spent on research and development in this field.

Concorde

Mr. Sheldon: asked the Minister of Aviation Supply if he will now make a further statement on the Concorde project.

Mr. Mather: asked the Minister of Aviation Supply if he will make a further statement on the Concorde project.

Mr. Carter: asked the Minister of Aviation Supply if he will make a statement on the latest stage of development and progress of the Concorde project.

Mr. Marten: asked the Minister of Aviation Supply if he will make a statement on progress with the Concorde.

Mr. Cronin: asked the Minister of Aviation Supply if he will make a further statement on the future of the Concorde supersonic aircraft.

Mr. Wall: asked the Minister of Aviation Supply if he will make a further statement on the progress of the Concorde programme.

The Minister of Aviation Supply (Mr. Frederick Corfield): I had planned to meet M. Clamant, the French Minister of Transport, on 29th March to review the progress of the project but, at his request, the meeting has been postponed until 22nd April. In the meantime, I have nothing to add to my hon. Friend's reply to the hon. Member for Ashton-under-Lyne (Mr. Sheldon) on 3rd March. —[Vol. 812, c. 1695–7.]

Mr. Sheldon: Has the postponement anything to do with the Rolls-Royce situation, and, further, has it anything to do with the possible escalating of the costs of the engine under the receiver? Will the right hon. Gentleman accept that one of the worst things that can happen is for the decision on the Concorde to be delayed and delayed while at the same time moneys are being spent, trickling into this project? Finally, what further components or materials are being ordered at this moment, pending the final decision?

Mr. Corfield: On the first two supplementary questions, there is absolutely no evidence for the underlying suggestions. The third is another question and I cannot give details at present.

Mr. Mather: I thank my right hon. Friend for this reply. Is he aware of the increasing number of redundancies at the Weybridge division of B.A.C. in my constituency, amounting to an extra 500 last week, and the urgent need to get this project off the ground? Having flown across the Atlantic twice in a Jumbo jet, I am firmly convinced that this aircraft, the Concorde, has a great future.

Mr. Corfield: I accept the latter part of that question. I appreciate that there


are certain difficulties, but this is a partnership, and we have to operate with our French partners.

Mr. Carter: Would the right hon. Gentleman assure us that the future of Concorde will be based on nothing but economic grounds, and that Britain's application to join the E.E.C. will play no part in future determination of policy over Concorde?

Mr. Corfield: Clearly the whole purpose of these talks is to examine the economic base in the light of the number of orders which seem likely, and on that basis we can make an estimate of a proper price.

Mr. Marten: Would my right hon. Friend not answer the specific question about Concorde not being part of the bargaining in the Common Market? Also, is B.O.A.C. keen to have it?

Mr. Corfield: It is certainly not part of the bargaining with regard to the Common Market. B.O.A.C. has made it clear that it is anxious to operate the aircraft, and we are in close consultation with the firms to see how best this can be done.

Mr. Cronin: Would the right hon. Gentleman confirm that the minor defect in the Concorde's air intake at supersonic speeds is likely to be corrected shortly, and that he also expects an early termination of his negotiations with B.O.A.C., these being the two principal difficulties in the way of reaching a conclusion?

Mr. Corfield: On the first part of that question, this is indeed a minor problem as I understand it, and I do not think that it will take a long time to rectify. On the second part, the B.O.A.C. attitude is very important, and we shall wish to have a firm undertaking from it as soon as possible.

Mr. Wall: Does my right hon. Friend think that the meeting which he expects in April will enable him to reach a final decision on a production model of Concorde? What is being done to clear Concorde for operations over the United States?

Mr. Corfield: There has never been any question that the United States was likely to permit supersonic flight over

land. The problem of using United States airports is another problem, and on this we are in close consultation with the American Government, through our embassy.

Mr. Bishop: Has the right hon. Gentleman had any consultations with the manufacturers regarding price? Does he realise that interference by the Government on this matter, or at least their observations on the matter, could affect the possibility of airlines ordering, and, of course, the future of the industry, of the project and of those engaged in the industry?

Mr. Corfield: Of course I have had consultations with both Rolls-Royce and B.A.C. about prices. The finance will have to be found by the Government, and it is right that we should do so.

Mr. McLaren: Has not the time come when B.O.A.C. should be directed, in the national interest, to place a number of firm orders for Concorde?

Mr. Corfield: No, Sir, I would not accept that for a moment.

Mr. Wilkinson: asked the Minister of Aviaton Supply whether he will make a further statement on when he expects to be able to authorise funding of production Concorde aircraft for airline service.

Mr. Geoffrey Finsberg: asked the Minister of Aviation Supply whether he is yet able to state when production orders for the next four Concordes will be placed; and if definite performance guarantees can now be given for airlines holding options.

Mr. David Price: I have nothing to add to the answers I gave to my hon. Friend on 3rd March.—[Vol. 812, c. 1698.]

Mr. Wilkinson: Does not my hon. Friend agree that the time is fast drawing nigh when we must come to a decision on this matter, as his right hon. Friend has assured the House that B.O.A.C. is anxious to operate this aircraft? Is it for reasons of unit price that B.O.A.C. cannot yet make up its mind, or is it a matter of economic operational considerations?

Mr. Price: I do not think that the latter supplementary question has anything to do with the Question.

Mr. Grylls: asked the Minister of Aviation Supply what estimate has been made by his Department of the total number of workers currently employed in this country on research and development and production work on Concorde, including suppliers and sub-contractors; and what estimate has been made of the likely numbers employed in a typical production year.

Mr. David Price: About 25,000 people are at present estimated to be employed in a number of firms on the Concorde project, about 20,000 on development and some 5,000 on production. This is expected to increase to a maximum of about 35,000 as the production programme builds up.

Mr. Grylls: Is my hon. Friend aware that in the industry it has been estimated that in a production year, in the South-East of England, including my constituency, some 12,500 people will be employed and that including subcontractors and induced employment, there will be 21,500 employed in the South-East, including my constituency? Does he not agree that this emphasises the vast importance of giving the go-ahead to Concorde, not only in the national interest, but in the interests of continued employment among my constituents?

Mr. Price: I assure my hon. Friend that we are fully aware of the importance of Concorde to many parts of the country.

Mr. Adley: Will my hon. Friend again look at the urgent need to assist B.A.C. with marketing arrangements in every way possible, because, while not wishing to criticise the Corporation, many of us feel that it could do with extra encouragement?

Mr. Price: I assure my hon. Friend that my right hon. Friend and I will give B.A.C. every encouragement necessary to do its important job.

Mr. Greville Janner: Is the hon. Gentleman aware of the importance of Concorde to areas such as Leicester, which live largely on their light engineering industries, and the effect which the collapse of Rolls-Royce has already had on the area? In those circumstances, can he give some assurance to the people in my constituency employed in light

engineering not only that Concorde will not be cancelled but that these areas, which survived even the depression of the 1930s tolerably well, will not be riddled with unemployment in a few months' time?

Mr. Price: I assure the hon. Gentleman that I am well aware of the facts of life as he has put them to the House, but I cannot say anything beyond what was said by my right hon. Friend earlier.

Mr. Barnett: asked the Minister of Aviation Supply what estimate he has now made of the final research and development costs of Concorde; how much he now hopes to recoup from eventual sales; and if he will make a statement.

Mr. David Price: I have nothing to add to the replies given to similar questions on 9th December and 3rd March. —[Vol. 808, c. 396–7; Vol. 812, c. 1701–2.]

Mr. Barnett: That is a disgraceful reply. Outside the House the figures are being freely discussed. The Minister must be aware that there are many who think, while recognising that Concorde could never be an economically viable proposition on the basis of an individual line—[Interruption.] The Minister will be aware—[HON. MEMBERS: "Question."] The Minister is aware—[HON. MEMBERS: "Question."]. Judging from his answers, the Minister is not aware of anything, but—

Mr. Speaker: The hon. Gentleman must not make observations like that. Will he put it in an interogatory form?

Mr. Barnett: Will the Minister and the Minister for the Environment recognise that many people outside the House appreciate that Concorde can never be economically viable on the basis of the whole cost, but might well be economically viable on the basis of the costs yet to be paid? Will he therefore recognise that there are many who would be prepared to accept the whole project? He should therefore specifically tell the House, and especially my hon. Friend the Member for Ashton-under-Lyne (Mr. Sheldon), what further commitments have been made—[HON. MEMBERS: "Question."]. This is expenditure involving


the taxpayers' money and authorising production costs.

Mr. Price: The hon. Gentleman's second supplementary question does not arise from the Question. I have nothing to add to what I have said about development costs. The hon. Gentleman is perfectly free to speculate with his hon. Friends as much as he likes, but that does not mean that his speculations are accurate.

Mr. Adley: Would not my hon. Friend agree that one of the most beneficial results likely to come from the Concorde is that airlines flying on the North Atlantic route will be able to charge a surcharge for supersonic travel, thus enabling them to realise one of their fondest dreams, which is to put up the fares on the North Atlantic routes, which at present absorb so much of the costs and at the same time provide so little of their profits?

Mr. Price: That is an interesting speculation on my hon. Friend's part, but nothing to do with development costs.

Mr. Sheldon: Will the hon. Gentleman now answer the question which has twice been put to him? Have production materials and components been authorised arising from this decision? What money is being allocated from the House without the House being informed about it?

Mr. Price: No further allocations have been authorised beyond the replies my right hon. Friend and I have given to the same question on previous occasions.

Rolls-Royce Limited

Mr. Sheldon: asked the Minister of Aviation Supply if he will now make a further statement on Rolls-Royce.

Dr. Gilbert: asked the Minister of Aviation Supply if he will make a further statement on Rolls-Royce.

Mr. Barnett: asked the Minister of Aviation Supply if he will now make a further statement on Rolls-Royce.

Mr. Raphael Tuck: asked the Minister of Aviation Supply if he will make a further statement on the progress of

negotiations regarding Rolls-Royce Limited.

Mr. Corfield: No, Sir. I have at present nothing to add to the answer I gave to my hon. Friend the Member for Derbyshire, South-East (Mr. Rost) on 19th March.—[Vol. 813, c. 405.]

Mr. Sheldon: Is it the Government's intention that a senior Minister should go to Washington to ensure—

Mr. Marten: He has gone.

Mr. Sheldon: He has gone, has he? Would the right hon. Gentleman say whether it is the intention of the Minister who has gone to Washington to seek an indemnity from the United States Government for any withdrawal by Lockheed from the present contract which may be entered into? What inducement is being offered to British airlines to purchase the TRISTAR.

Mr. Corfield: The answer to the first part of that questions forms part of a later answer, but my hon. Friend the Minister of State for Defence and my right hon. and learned Friend the Attorney-General have left to take part in the negotiations.

Mr. Sheldon: When did they go?

Mr. Corfield: One hour ago. What was the second part?

Mr. Sheldon: About indemnity—

Mr. Speaker: Order. We cannot have this backwards and forwards discussion. Dr. Gilbert.

Dr. Gilbert: Would the Minister first of all answer by hon. Friend's supplementary—

Mr. Sheldon: On a point of order Mr. Speaker. It is clear that the Minister has not followed by question and was only asking for clarification.

Mr. Speaker: One tries to get on with questions and allow as many supplementaries as possible. There will be three or four more supplementaries and I have not the slightest doubt that the answer asked for will be given in the course of those—as I think is already about to happen.

Dr. Gilbert: Further to that, what attempts, if any, were made in the recent


negotiations for the sale of the patents of Rolls-Royce to ascertain whether any other interested buyers were in the market for them, so that the Receiver got the highest possible price in the interests of the unsecured creditors? Can the right hon. Gentleman update the information which he gave me in his undated letter of March, in which he said that the unsecured creditors were owed something over £50 million for supplies? Has he any more precise figure?

Mr. Corfield: On the last point, I have not. No pressure is being put on any British airline with regard to the choice of equipment which it buys. The patents are an integral part of the functions of Rolls-Royce (1971) Limited.

Mr. Barnett: Would the right hon. Gentleman care to deny the report that the compensation is not as high as the amount which he told the House? If the main reason for the liquidation was the contract for the RB211, and if there is a chance, as appears from reports, that the Government are prepared to renegotiate, perhaps giving up to £90 million, why has he allowed the Receiver to break up the company and at the same time jeopardise the interests of the workers and the sub-contractors, rather than wait for the outcome of negotiations?

Mr. Corfield: There has been no breaking up of the company. I can certainly deny the report referred to by the hon. Gentleman.

Mr. Raphael Tuck: As it transpires that the financial penalty for late delivery of the engines for the TriStar was much less than supposed because of the ceiling on the financial liability, and the contract included an escalation clause allowing Rolls-Royce to increase the price of the engines, what has the right hon. Gentleman to say in reply to the American feeling, referred to in The Times of 19th March, that it is doubtful whether the Receiver should have been put in, and, secondly, that the British Government have been at best less than frank and at worst positively misleading in not admitting the presence of this favourable clause in the contract?

Mr. Corfield: That really is a fabrication. It was for the board of Rolls-Royce to make the decision, and it was on the advice tendered to it as to the

possible costs of delay that it took it. There is no question that we could have begun to make the sort of contract which may now be possible if that had not happened.

Mr. Rost: Is my right hon. Friend aware that the Government's energetic negotiations to get the RB211 contract moving again are being received with great satisfaction, in South-East Derbyshire particularly? Will he confirm that discussions with Lockheed and the American Government have also included discussion with regard to possible American defence contracts with Lockheed and the RB211?

Mr. Corfield: I thank my hon. Friend for the first part of his supplementary question, but cannot comment on the second.

Mr. Benn: Could the right hon. Gentleman publish the contract signed between Rolls-Royce and Lockheed in 1968 so that the House itself may judge whether the charges made about the contract have any validity?

Mr. Corfield: I will consider that but I have made it clear that one must be guided by the legal advice one obtains at the time.

Mr. Scott-Hopkins: asked the Minister of Aviation Supply what is the cost to public funds of purchasing the aero and marine engine divisions of the Rolls-Royce Company from the official receiver.

Mr. Corfield: The price to be paid for the assets we are acquiring will be a matter for negotiations between Rolls-Royce (1971) Ltd. and the receiver. These negotiations will be based upon a fair price between the receiver and a willing buyer but until they are concluded it will not be possible to say what the cost to public funds will be.

Mr. Scott-Hopkins: Can my right hon. Friend indicate how soon the negotiations will be concluded? Is he aware that the longer they drag on, the more difficult it is for the board of Rolls-Royce (1971) Limited to get going and the more uncertainty is created for unsecured and secured creditors of the old Rolls-Royce board? Will he do his utmost to expedite the matter?

Mr. Corfield: I appreciate the anxieties, but Rolls-Royce (1971) Limited will be able to start operations within a matter of, I hope, weeks—certainly not months. This will be possible before the final price is settled. A very large number and variety of assets are involved, and the process is, I am afraid, bound to take some time.

Mr. Walter Johnson: Will the right hon. Gentleman ask the Receiver or the new Rolls-Royce company to make an early announcement about workers' shares and industrial injury provisions which are outstanding with the old company?

Mr. Corfield: I can go no further than I have said already—that these are matters of considerable difficulty which are still being considered. The final answer can be found only when we know the fate of the RB211 negotiations.

Mr. Wilkinson: asked the Minister of Aviation Supply whether he will make a further statement on the present financial position of aero-engine component manufacturers for Rolls-Royce.

Mr. Dalyell: asked the Minister of Aviation Supply if he will make a statement on the progress of his continuing study of the problems of sub-contractors to Rolls-Royce.

Dr. Gilbert: asked the Minister of Aviation Supply what estimate he has made of the number of employees of firms engaged as sub-contractors or suppliers to Rolls-Royce who have been declared redundant or placed on short-time working since 4th February, 1971, as a result of the Rolls-Royce insolvency.

Mr. Corfield: On redundancies or short-time working, no precise estimate can be given, but I understand that the Department of Employment has been notified of redundancies involving some 7,500 employees at sub-contractors or suppliers to Rolls-Royce, of whom 3,600 have already been dismissed. Approximately 8,000 employees of such firms are on short-time at present. Beyond this, I have nothing to add to what I said in the debate on 11th March.

Mr. Wilkinson: Can my right hon. Friend assure us that the Receiver will

give priority to indemnifying those companies which have suffered grievous loss on contracts specifically for Her Majesty's Government in terms of military work—non-RB211 work—as this amounts to a very large sum of money?

Mr. Corfield: My hon. Friend will appreciate that the Receiver is governed by the Companies Act.

Mr. Dalyell: Without wishing prematurely to press the hon. Gentleman on a mission which all of us will welcome, may I ask him whether he can put at rest the minds of those sub-contractors who are concerned about the attachment in American law of the RB211 engines by the Pacific Airmotive Corporation of California?

Mr. Corfield: I do not know how this directly affects the sub-contractors. At the moment, the engines are being released to Lockheed and there is no interference with their use.

Mr. Dalyell: Not to the sub-contractors?

Mr. Corfield: I should not have thought so.

Dr. Gilbert: The right hon. Gentleman said, understandably, that he could not give any guarantee that there would be no more redundancies even if the RB211 programme were proceeded with. Can he say whether we are intended to infer that some further redundancies may be expected, and, if so, at what volume and at what time? Secondly, are any other Rolls-Royce programmes in danger at this stage? Lastly, can he say why he is not able to give with any precision a figure of the sum owed to unsecured creditors, even at this stage, several months after liquidation? Are the books of Rolls-Royce still in such a shambles?

Mr. Corfield: The original figure was approximately accurate to the nearest £1 million, to which I gave it. The answer to the hon. Gentleman's second question is "No". The only one slightly in a difficult position is the M45—and that is simply because negotiations were in progress with the German Government about financing when the Receiver was appointed. Those negotiations are going on.

Mr. Scott-Hopkins: Will my right hon. Friend realise that many sub-contractors


are in a difficult position? I accept that of course, the Receiver cannot act outside the Companies Act, but cannot the Government find some method by which help may be given to those sub-contractors who are engaged in defence contracts through the old Rolls-Royce company?

Mr. Corfield: As far as I can foresee at the moment, the only help that can be given is an assurance that these contracts can continue and that there is every opportunity of the sub-contractors being able to continue to trade. I can only add that, so far as I know, there are not likely to be further major redundancies, but I am not prepared to guarantee that.

Mr. Benn: Would the right hon. Gentleman say something about the carbon fibres, because there has been anxiety among the staff engaged at Huck-nail and redundancies have been declared at Rolls-Royce Composite Materials in Bristol?

Mr. Corfield: There is a later Question specifically on that matter.

Mr. Whitehead: asked the Minister of Aviation Supply what conversations, between Ministers and the receiver appointed in connection with Rolls-Royce or his representatives, took place between 4th February, 1971, and 8th March, 1971; and whether possible redundancy schemes were discussed.

Mr. Corfield: I have nothing to add to what I said on this subject in the debate on 11th March.—[Vol. 813, c. 617.]

Mr. Whitehead: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that, quite apart from the redundancies which have already been effective at Rolls-Royce, a number of redundancy notices were given out in the Derby engine division and then subsequently withdrawn? Is he further aware that, apart from that, many people in the division have received letters asking whether they will take cuts in grade and salary? In the light of that, is he still prepared to say that in these matters neither the Government nor the board of Rolls-Royce (1971) Ltd. guide the Receiver in any way?

Mr. Corfield: The situation is quite simply that in certain cases redundancies

have been declared by the Receiver but a change of personnel has been requested by the board of Rolls-Royce (1971) Ltd. because it clearly wanted to retain some of these people in preference to others.

Mr. Speaker: Mr. Finsberg.

Mr. Finsberg: No. 26, Sir.

Mr. Speaker: I was calling the hon. Member to ask a supplementary question to No. 27.

Mr. Finsberg: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. With great respect, you went from No. 24 to No. 27.

Mr. Speaker: I did, because the hon. Member's Question No. 26 had already been answered with Question No. 10.

Mr. Onslow: Further to that point of order. I believe I saw my hon. Friend rise in an effort to catch your eye when No. 10 was called.

Mr. Speaker: If the hon. Gentleman saw that, he saw something which I did not see, and I think that I was looking more closely than he.

Mr. Whitehead: asked the Minister of Aviation Supply what is to be the future of carbon fibre research under Rolls-Royce (1971) Limited; and if he will make a statement.

Mr. Corfield: Rolls-Royce (1971) Limited proposes to continue carbon fibre research work.

Mr. Whitehead: While thanking the Minister for that assurance, may I ask him whether he is aware that the declaration of redundancies extending to most of the research team, and also the team at Littleover, near Derby, severely damaged the confidence of this team in the future of the project? Could he tell the House why these redundancies were declared when the 211 project in particular was still being negotiated?

Mr. Corfield: I am afraid there was some misunderstanding in regard to the future of the carbon fibre plant at Hucknall. I would point out that the Question is about research and this is a production unit which the board of Rolls-Royce (1971) Limited had decided not to take over.

Mr. Warren: Would my right hon. Friend confirm recent reports that substantial stocks of carbon fibre have disappeared from the Hucknall plant together with the machines to produce this material, bearing in mind particularly that Rolls-Royce has recently achieved a break-through in the construction of carbon fibre blades to meet the specifications required by the Americans?

Mr. Corfield: I will certainly investigate the report to which my hon. Friend refers. I do not think that the question of the manufacture of blades is specifically connected with the Hucknall facilities.

RB211 Engine

Mr. Scott-Hopkins: asked the Minister of Aviation Supply what progress he has made in the negotiations with Lockheed of the United States of America to continue the development and production by Rolls-Royce (1971) of the RB211; and if he will make a statement.

Mr. Cronin: asked the Minister of Aviation Supply if he will make a further statement on the negotiations for the supply of the Rolls-Royce RB211 engine for the Lockheed Tristar.

Mr. Raphael Tuck: asked the Minister of Aviation Supply if he will make a further statement on the progress of negotiations regarding the RB211.

Mr. McMaster: asked the Minister of Aviation Supply what progress has been made by Rolls-Royce (1971) Limited in its efforts to renegotiate the RB211 contract with Lockheed: and if he will make a statement.

Mr. Corfield: Lockheed has rejected the proposals put to it in London earlier this month, which I reported to the House on 8th March, but negotiations are continuing urgently following the visit to Lockheed last week of senior representatives of Her Majesty's Government and Rolls-Royce (1971) Limited. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Defence and my right hon. and learned Friend the Attorney-General are leaving today to join in the negotiations.

Mr. Scott-Hopkins: As most supplementary questions on this subject have been anticipated on previous Questions, I congratulate my right hon. Friend on the progress which is being made. I assure him that most of the House and the country wish the negotiators out there the greatest success. I congratulate him and the Government on sending such a high-level delegation out there at the right time to continue and. I hope, conclude the negotiations with Lockheed. I also congratulate the Government if it is true that they have advanced the offer from £60 million to £90 million.

Mr. Corfield: I am sure that my hon. Friend and the House will accept that it would not be right to discuss the terms of any negotiations going on at present, but I accept the earlier part of his comments.

Mr. Cronin: It is difficult for the right hon. Gentleman to say much at this delicate stage of these negotiations, but would he confirm that the three main points of the negotiations are the guarantee of spares by Her Majesty's Government, the guarantee of British investment and the establishment of satisfactory production costs with Lockheed? Will he undertake to give a statement on the negotiations at the earliest possible moment?

Mr. Corfield: The answer to both parts of the supplementary question is, "Yes".

Mr. Raphael Tuck: Since this engine is vital and the symbol of our whole technological development in the air, may I ask the right hon. Gentleman to double and redouble his efforts not to let it go?

Mr. Corfield: We are making every effort to obtain an acceptable and sensible contract, but I do not fully accept the first part of the hon. Gentleman's supplementary question.

Mr. McMaster: In view of the large sums of money required to develop advanced aircraft and the high degree of risk, has my right hon. Friend made any representations to the Government of the United States that they and Her Majesty's Government can help by guarantee or direct subsidy to keep this project in existence in order to keep the design teams together and prevent heavy


unemployment in the aircraft companies and the repercussions throughout industry?

Mr. Corfield: I must ask my hon. Friend not to speculate on the negotiations. Clearly, there are difficulties in asking the United States Government to subsidise a rival to the General Electric and Pratt and Whitney engines.

Mr. William Rodgers: There are problems of speculation about the negotiations, and we do not want the right hon. Gentleman to speculate. We welcome the journey to Washington. Can he tell the House first what the next stage of the negotiations will be so that we shall not learn the terms from the newspapers, as we did last time?

Mr. Corfield: It is always my endeavour to inform the House first, but the hon. Gentleman appreciates that there are occasions when other people make statements to the Press and when it is necessary for any statement by the Government to coincide with them. But of course it is my intention to tell the House first.

Mr. Warren: Will my right hon. Friend confirm the excellent progress made in the design and production sectors of Rolls-Royce over the last few weeks and, therefore, through the negotiators, invite the airlines, which are the ultimate customers, to come and see this work at Derby?

Mr. Corfield: The airlines have been involved to some extent with the negotiations with our own team but I will bear my hon. Friend's suggestion in mind.

Mr. Dalyell: asked the Minister of Aviation Supply what is his latest technical assessment of the RB211 engine.

Mr. Corfield: I have nothing to add to my reply of 3rd March to the hon. Member.—[Vol. 812, c. 1684–5.]

Mr. Dalyell: What technical assessment can the Receiver make? Can the hon. Gentleman explain the answer which the Under-Secretary gave on Monday to my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow, Craigton (Mr. Millan) when he said that in these matters the Government had no control over the Receiver?

Mr. Corfield: That is perfectly true. The Government do not have control over the Receiver in this matter.

Mr. Dalyell: Then how can they negotiate?

Mr. Corfield: Of course we can negotiate.

Mr. Dalyell: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. We wanted the Under-Secretary to answer that Question, not the Minister.

Mr. Speaker: That is not a matter for me.

Harrier Aircraft (Marine Use)

Mr. Wall: asked the Minister of Aviation Supply what preparations or alterations to Harrier aircraft are being made for the operation of these aircraft at sea.

Mr. David Price: Those R.A.F. Harriers which will take part in the further trials from an aircraft carrier announced in Cmnd. 4592 will have a number of minor modifications to enable them to carry out deck operations safely.

Mr. Wall: As. the current versions of the Harrier are not suitable for prolonged operations at sea and as the R.A.F. cannot supply cover out of range of land bases for the merchant fleet or the Royal Navy, should not properly designed Harriers for operation at sea be put in hand as rapidly as possible?

Mr. Price: This is a matter for my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Defence.

B.E.A. (Aircraft Requirement)

Mr. Michael McNair-Wilson: asked the Minister of Aviation Supply what representations have been made to him by British European Airways about its requirement for either a short take-off and landing or a vertical take-off and landing civil airliner for service after 1975; and what reply he has given.

Mr. David Price: None, Sir.

Mr. McNair-Wilson: Since we now know that the American Civil Aeronautics Board is putting VSTOL operation into service to gain service experience,


is it not time that the Government brought B.E.A. and the British airframe manufacturers into co-operation to produce a prototype VSTOL aircraft so that we too can gain this vital operating experience which will be crucial if we go into production with this aircraft, as we surely shall?

Mr. Price: I can assure my hon. Friend that B.E.A. has been closely associated with my right hon. Friend's Department in studies both of VTOL and STOL.

Mr. Bishop: Is the hon. Gentleman aware of the widespread concern over the need for a comprehensive policy on VSTOL which will bring in not only those concerned with the project but also local authorities, airport authorities on both sides of the Channel, air safety bodies and so on, because there seems to be no co-ordinated policy on the progress being made on this project?

Mr. Price: As the hon. Gentleman knows, pretty detailed studies were done on a pilot survey of inter-city VTOL, and this has been one of the factors. Studies are carrying on across the whole area. It is a little too early to say there is an absolutely clear lead as to the precise parameters of the type of aircraft we are going for.

Mr. Onslow: Would my hon. Friend agree that, since there is considerable technical conflict between the requirements of VTOL and STOL and since it is evident that STOL could be achieved more cheaply and more quickly, it would be an advantage if his Ministry could make a declaration of policy in favour of the production of STOL as soon as possible?

Mr. Price: It had been my right hon. Friend's hope that he would by now be able to make a statement on this, but in view of the problems of Rolls-Royce I am afraid it has been put back somewhat in the time-scale.

Mr. Rankin: Would the Minister agree that if transport facilities in the North of Scotland are to be properly developed then a STOL aircraft is absolutely essential?

Mr. Price: I would not feel confident to make a declaration on what is the priority for the North of Scotland. I think the whole House would agree that

if we can get a sensible specificaton for STOL and take in the whole of the ground planning and noise factors, then we can see a considerable future for it. Further than that I cannot go.

Jet Engines (Noise)

Mr. Michael McNair-Wilson: asked the Minister of Aviation Supply whether he will make a further statement about research work currently being undertaken by Government establishments into quietening jet engines.

Mr. David Price: The National Gas Turbine Establishment is studying major sources of noise so as to improve both existing and new engines. Expenditure is currently about £140,000 a year.

Mr. McNair-Wilson: Would my hon. Friend not agree that aircraft noise has become a major urban source of environmental pollution and, in view of the large sums of money we have discussed in this House on the possibility of building a third London airport, would not this money be better spent trying to invent "hush kits" for existing jet engines and ensuring we have engines which can be retrofitted into existing airliners?

Mr. Price: I answered the Question my hon. Friend put to me. I should add that outside our own establishments about £1 million a year is being spent on extra-mural research projects. As to retrofit, current studies suggest that the scope for quietening existing engines may not be as great as previously thought and the cost is very high. As he knows, the question has been discussed internationally and no decision is likely for some time.

Oral Answers to Questions — ENVIRONMENT

Greater London Council (Boundaries)

Mr. Leonard: asked the Secretary of State for the Environment what plans he has to propose changes in the boundary of the Greater London Council area.

The Secretary of State for the Environment (Mr. Peter Walker): As I said in my reply to my hon. Friend the Member for Esher (Mr. Mather) on 19th March, I have no plans to change these boundaries, and I do not consider this the


time to reopen the question of the extent of Greater London. This issue was settled by Parliament after full debate, and the present boundaries have been in operation for less than six years.

Mr. Leonard: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that that answer will be received with great satisfaction and relief in the Greater London area despite the recent statement by Mr. Desmond Plummer?

Mr. Walker: I am delighted that any replies of mine should have created that great relief.

Mr. Maddan: Will my right hon. Friend consider with his other right hon. Friends the question of the continuance of I.L.E.A. now that a pattern has been set up in other metropolitan areas of the country where the boroughs control education?

Mr. Walker: This is a matter much better directed to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Education.

Oral Answers to Questions — HOUSE OF COMMONS

European Economic Community

Mr. Marten: asked the Lord President of the Council whether it is the policy of Her Majesty's Government that each of the regulations which will become effective if Great Britain joins the Common Market should be debated in Parliament.

The Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Mr. William Whitelaw): No, Sir; but I can assure the House that if the negotiations succeed, adequate opportunity will be provided for Parliament to debate the implications of the Instrument of Accession.

Mr. Marten: Is this not a reversal of the sovereign right of this Parliament to debate orders and regulations which affect us? Could my right hon. Friend say that if we do sign the Treaty of Rome, we would then be able to debate or pray against orders and regulations made in Brussels?

Mr. Whitelaw: As I understand it, at the moment many of the Community regulations would be perfectly easy for

us to accede to in our normal legislative processes.

Mr. Shore: The Leader of the House must know that an enormous body of continental law is now expressed in regulations. Would he consider publishing these regulations so that people in this country and in Parliament can know how large an adjustment will have to be made to our own domestic law to bring it into line with alien continental law?

Mr. Whitelaw: I would not go as far as the right hon. Gentleman says, but I will certainly look into the points he makes.

National Health Service (Select Committee)

Mr. Pavitt: asked the Lord President of the Council if he will move to appoint a Select Committee for the National Health Service.

Mr. William Whitelaw: I do not contemplate doing so at the present time.

Mr. Pavitt: Would the Lord President reconsider that? Is he aware that we spend on the National Health Service £2,000 million a year and that it affects general practice, hospitals, nurses, and many others, and that there is not often on the Floor of the House opportunity to discuss this service? Does he not agree that it deserves priority for detailed study and examination by Parliament so that we can know best what action to take and when, and to that end would he reconsider his answer, and seek to move quickly for the establishment of a Select Committee on the National Health Service?

Mr. Whitelaw: I certainly recognise the importance of all that the hon. Member says, but in the Green Paper which I published last November I set out proposals for Select Committees at the present time. I think the hon. Gentleman will probably appreciate that the Employment and Social Services Sub-Committee of the Expenditure Committee can certainly examine the National Health Service from the expenditure point of view. I would like to proceed in that way at the present time, but I do not rule out the sort of Committee which the hon. Member suggests in the long term. But not, I think, at the present time.

Members (Salaries and Pensions)

Mr. Arthur Lewis: asked the Lord President of the Council whether he will seek to ensure that retired Members of Parliament and their widows will be enabled to draw pensions or annuities on the same basis as those to be paid to the former Speaker King and Mrs. King.

Mr. Whitelaw: The pension arrangements of all Members of Parliament, including that of Mr. Speaker, will be within the scope of the forthcoming review of Members' remuneration. The House has, however, shown, Mr. Speaker, that it recognises the unique responsibilities of your office.

Mr. Lewis: Will the Minister see to it that this suggestion, which would be an admirable one, is put before the Review Body, because this would receive the unanimous support of all hon. Members?

Mr. Whitelaw: I am very grateful to the hon. Member for what he says. I will certainly put it before the Review Body, but, just as a matter of interesting historical fact, the amount of the Speaker's pension remained unaltered from 1832 to 1965. In 1832 it was £4,000 a year; in 1965 it was £4,000 a year.

Mr. Arthur Lewis: asked the Lord President of the Council if he will appoint a secretariat to the Committee on Members' salaries and conditions of service, whose duty it will be to collect and prepare written and documentary evidence from Members of Parliament and others; and whether he will state to whom Members should write to submit their written evidence pending the submission of oral evidence.

Mr. Whitelaw: As my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Employment informed the House on 2nd November, the new Review Bodies will have at their disposal, and working to their directions, a Secretariat provided by the Office of Manpower Economics.
For the rest of the Question, I would again refer the hon. Member to the replies which I gave to him and to my hon. Friend the Member for Worcestershire, South (Sir G. Nabarro) on 20th January. —[Vol. 809, c. 283, 1066–8.]

Mr. Lewis: I thank the right hon. Gentleman for the first part of his reply,

but is he aware that the second part has been passed on over the past two years? Will the Minister not try to get some expedition in this matter and give us an opportunity of at least having an investigation into the question without having to wait two years before the committee is appointed? Can he give us some idea when the committee is to be appointed, and the name of the chairman, and to whom we can give information upon which the committee may form a judgment?

Mr. Whitelaw: I am as anxious as anyone in this House that the Review Body should be appointed as soon as possible, and I am working my hardest to that end.

Mr. William Hamilton: asked the Lord President of the Council what representations he has received concerning the pensions of retired Members of Parliament, and especially those who retired prior to 1964.

Mr. Whitelaw: Representations concerning the rates of pension benefits have been received from several ex-Members of the House and from the Trustees of the Members' Contributory Pension Fund. These are receiving urgent attention.

Mr. Hamilton: Does the right hon. Gentleman recognise that of the Members who retired in 1964 and, therefore, do not get the same generous benefits which other Members do, some are suffering from considerable hardship, and that it had been hoped that this House would take some immediate action without waiting for the Review Body to consider the matter?

Mr. Whitelaw: I certainly agree with the hon. Gentleman and I will do my very best to that end.

Catering Staff

Mr. Loughlin: asked the Lord President of the Council if he will arrange for the payment of an additional bonus based upon hours worked in excess of a norm for the period January, 1971, to such period to be determined in the light of future demand made upon them, to catering staff who are working excessively long hours owing to the demands of the House.

Dr. Bennett: I have been asked to reply.
All catering staff who are on duty after 10.30 p.m. are already paid at overtime rates.

Mr. Loughlin: Whilst appreciating that the catering staff get overtime for the very long hours they work, may I ask whether the hon. Gentleman will admit that since January of this year there have been demands far in excess of the normal made upon the catering workers—and, indeed, on other members of the staff of this House? Would it not be a good idea, and a token of appreciation on our part, if the Catering Department would consider giving the catering staff an additional bonus—it would, I think, meet with the approval of both sides of the House —for the way they have looked after us during this period, which has been abnormal?

Dr. Bennett: There is nothing that I and other members of the Catering Committee would like more than to be able to do that. The only difficulty is that, in spite of the fact that we are paying up to £1,000 a week more in wages currently for these excessive weeks' working, we are unable to go further because we are still losing money—

Mr. Loughlin: We are always losing money.

Dr. Bennett: Not at the rate we are now. Before Christmas it was a matter of hundreds a week but now it is thousands; and because of the almost bankrupt condition it is difficult to find where the money should come from. At the same time I feel sure that the whole House would like me to congratulate the staff who look after us so well, and that I will gladly do. I think a bonus for those who went right through the night and this morning is not out of place. There were not many of them, and they worked terribly hard and well.

Mr. Loughlin: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the reply, I beg to give notice that I will seek to raise the matter on the Adjournment at the earliest possible date.

Sixpences

Mr. Geoffrey Finsberg: asked the Lord President of the Council if he will

ensure that sufficient sixpences are being supplied to all bars, refreshment rooms and tea rooms within the Palace of Westminster so that this coin may freely circulate.

Dr. Bennett: I have been asked to reply.
Yes.

Mr. Finsberg: Is my hon. Friend aware that sixpences are hardly ever given out in change? [HON. MEMBERS: "Reading!"] I am reading the same sort of thing as the hon. Member for Fife, West (Mr. William Hamilton) does; it is in black type. Would my hon. Friend assure the House that at least his Department is not trying, like the joint stock banks, to kill off the sixpence?

Dr. Bennett: I think my department has very little in common with the joint stock banks.

Mr. Lipton: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that there is nothing we can get for sixpence in the Refreshment Rooms, so that this Question is purely hypothetical? Would he tell me what we can get for sixpence under his present leadership?

Dr. Bennett: I will certainly make inquiries.

Staff (Night Transport)

Mr. Mawby: asked the Lord President of the Council which officers or servants of the House are furnished with transport to their homes when the House sits after midnight.

Mr. Whitelaw: When the House rises between 11.30 p.m. and 5 a.m. a car service is provided for all officers and staff of the House, including the staff of the Refreshment Department, who have been on duty. This service is provided only within the London area, and is to the nearest point to their homes normally served by public transport.

Mr. Mawby: Is my right hon. Friend aware that this is the very least we can do for servants who have served us well? Do they not deserve a special vote of thanks for the tremendous difficulties they put up with in last night's escapade?

Mr. Whitelaw: I entirely agree with all my hon. Friend says.

Members (Accommodation)

Mr. William Hamilton: asked the Lord President of the Council what plans are in hand for the improvement of working conditions for Members of Parliament.

Mr. Whitelaw: I assume the hon. Member has principally in mind the question of Members' accommodation. Major improvements must inevitably await the new parliamentary building in Bridge Street, planned for completion in 1978, but the new accommodation over the Tea Room should at least provide office space for about a hundred more Members by October next year.

Mr. Hamilton: Does the right hon. Gentleman recognise that some Members of this House are working in conditions far worse than those in many factories in this country, and that, in fact, if factory workers had to work under our conditions they would be out on strike tomorrow—subject to the Industrial Relations Bill? Will he inject some sense of urgency into this matter to see what further provision can be made without waiting till 1978, or whatever the date is, for the provision of the new building?

Mr. Whitelaw: I would not wish to follow the hon. Member in the first part of his remarks, but I entirely agree with him that it is important for us to provide accommodation as soon as we can. He will appreciate that the accommodation over the Tea Room is to be provided and will be ready by October of next year.

Staff (Late Sittings)

Rear-Admiral Morgan-Giles: asked the Lord President of the Council approximately how many staff in each of the following categories are employed in the House of Commons at midnight on the occasions when the House is still sitting, namely, doorkeepers, police, engineers, lift attendants, refreshment department attendants, and others.

Mr. Whitelaw: The following staff are employed in the House of Commons at midnight when the House is sitting:
Twenty-two doorkeepers,
Twenty-six police,
Fifteen engineers,
Two lift attendants,
Twenty-five refreshment department staff and Fifty-seven others, including Clerks, Library Clerks, Serjeants, and HANSARD Reporters.

Rear-Admiral Morgan-Giles: Do not these very large numbers bring two thoughts to mind—first, that we are extremely grateful to our efficient and cheerful staff, as has already been said; and, second, that performances such as the Opposition's unsuccessful stratagem last night serve only to make an absolute nonsense of Parliament?

Mr. Whitelaw: In answer to the first part of the supplementary question, I entirely agree with my hon. and gallant Friend that we are all, wherever we sit in the House, greatly indebted to our staff for the long hours they work for us and for what they do for us.
As to the second part of the question. I have always said quite simply that every hon. Member is entirely responsible for the consequences of his own actions.

FACTORY, SOUTH NORMANTON (EXPLOSION)

Mr. Skinner: (by Private Notice) asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he will make a statement on the explosion yesterday at a South Normanton factory which resulted in the death of four people.

The Minister of State, Home Office (Mr. Richard Sharpies): My right hon. Friend was notified yesterday afternoon that an accident had occurred at the factory of Explosives and Chemical Products Ltd., South Normanton, Derbyshire, involving a machine used in the production of blasting explosives. As a result of the explosion three people, a man and two women, were killed immediately and a fourth person, a woman, subsequently died from the injuries which she had received. One of H.M. Inspectors of Explosives went at once to the scene of the accident to undertake enquiries into its cause.
I should like to take this opportunity of expressing my deep sympathy with the relatives of those who have died.

Mr. Skinner: Is the Minister of State aware that I and I am sure the whole House will wish to be associated with the expression of sympathy which he has extended to the relatives of those who have died in this tragic incident?
Is the hon. Gentleman aware that there is a need for a thorough-going public


inquiry into the circumstances of this accident, because eight years ago to the very day a similar explosion occurred in the self-same factory which fatally injured two people? Is the hon. Gentleman further aware that the whole neighbourhood is very anxious that steps be taken to ensure that there is not a third incident of this nature?

Mr. Sharples: The inspector has full powers under the Act to carry out his duties and the report which he produces will be published. I will ensure that a copy of it goes to the hon. Gentleman.

HOUSE PURCHASE (LOCAL AUTHORITY MORTGAGES)

The Minister for Housing and Construction (Mr. Julian Amery): With permission, I will make a statement about the level of local authority mortgage lending for house purchase in 1971–72.
As the House knows, the Government attach a very high priority to the extension of home ownership. In pursuit of this aim, I am engaged in talks with the building societies which undertake the great bulk of mortgage lending. Their facilities are already very comprehensive, but I am considering with them how these could be improved. There are, however, important areas of mortgage demand which may not be wholly met under normal building society practice. Here, local authorities, with their special knowledge of local conditions and individual needs, can make a contribution yielding social dividends out of all proportion to the capital involved.
The previous Administration sought to limit local authority mortgage lending by putting a series of money ceilings on the finance available. At one point, indeed, in 1969–70, their ceiling for England and Wales sank as low as £30 million.
I have concluded that the extension of home ownership will best be served by abolishing the money ceilings. At the same time, I am asking the local authorities to limit their lending to categories of borrowers who might not qualify for a building society loan or who are otherwise in need.
The principal categories will be:
Homeless people.
People living in overcrowded conditions, or conditions otherwise detrimental to health.
People displaced by slum clearance or, indeed, other development.
People who want to buy older and smaller homes unlikely to attract a commercial mortgage advance.
People high on the local authority's waiting list.
Existing tenants of the local authority.
Members of self-build groups.
People who wish to buy larger property with a view to letting a part of it in areas where there is overcrowding.
People who want to buy a house in or around a development area or in an overspill receiving area.
I would also consider proposals by local authorities to lend to other categories of people whose needs in the area concerned seem of broadly the same priority.
My officials have discussed these proposals with the local authority associations which, I am advised, regard them as a considerable step forward. They see no difficulty in arranging with my Department to keep a running check on the capital expenditure involved. Special arrangements are under discussion with the Greater London Council since it and the London borough councils lend within the same area.
My right hon. Friends the Secretaries of State for Scotland and Wales have authorised me to say that they are proposing to proceed on similar lines.

Mr. Crosland: The Secretary of State announced on 3rd November a comprehensive new housing policy. This is only one very small and partial glimpse in that Pandora's box.
Is the Minister aware that we certainly welcome this statement if it leads to a real increase in local authority lending? It is fully in line with Labour policy. Indeed, it was exactly a year ago that the Labour Government raised to £155 million the ceiling on local authority lending.
I have three specific questions for the Minister. First, will this lead to an increase in lending, or is it window dressing? In other words, how far have the


local authorities got towards the present ceiling of £155 million?
Second, to what extent does the Minister expect that this will lead to an increase in housing building?
Third, is the Minister aware that the real cause for worry at the moment is the decline in local authority building, a decline strongly encouraged by the Secretary of State's admonitions to Tory Councils, a decline which this statement will do nothing to reverse, and a decline which the threatened movement to so-called fair rents will certainly intensify? When will the House have a statement on the full implications of the Government's housing policy?

Mr. Amery: I have had occasion previously to refer to the statements of the right hon. Member for Coventry, East (Mr. Crossman), and I do not propose to do so today. In reply to the right hon. Gentleman's claim that this is in harmony with Labour policy, I can only say that the policy adumbrated by the right hon. Member for Coventry, East was dropped in 1967 by Lord Greenwood and that the Labour Government transferred support from the idea of rationing by category to rationing by ceiling.
The right hon. Gentleman asked me three specific questions which I will do my best to answer. He asked me, first, whether this will lead to an increase in lending. I should be surprised if it did not lead to a dramatic, perhaps spectacular, increase in local authority lending. [An HON. MEMBER: "Give us a figure."] What we are doing is not trying to limit by a ceiling but to limit according to the needs of people. I hope that I have dealt with that point sufficiently. This is the most important of all. The House will find that when we come to measure the outturn—it will not be very long before we do so—we shall be facing perhaps the greatest overall increase in mortgage lending by local authorities in all our history.
The right hon. Gentleman asked whether this would lead to an increase in house building. The main purpose is to provide home ownership for those who cannot tap the building society market. So a good deal of this money will go into the buying of existing properties. There is no harm in that. This will

provide relets for council houses and new accommodation for others.
Local authority building seems out of context with what I have been talking about. However, I shall always be glad to receive representations from the right hon. Gentleman. What we are doing is the most spectacular attempt to help local authorities to encourage home ownership which has been made since the war.

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: Is my right hon. Friend aware that his reversal of the previous Government's policy of limitation, which caused so much unnecessary hardship in London in particular, and the greater encouragement which he is giving to home ownership, results from this Government attaching greater importance to home ownership than did the previous Government or to better financial and economic management, or to a bit of both?

Mr. Amery: I am grateful for my right hon. Friend's intervention. I think it is a bit of both. But I should also stress that we are trying to bring home ownership within the reach of those in need who otherwise may not have the means.

Mr. David Steel: Will the right hon. Gentleman say whether in his talks with the building societies he has encouraged or will encourage them to advance 90 to 95 per cent. loans to young married couples for property other than new houses, which has been the real problem in the past?
In view of the grave imbalance between public and private ownership of post-war housing in Scotland, will the right hon. Gentleman, or the Secretary of State for Scotland, impress on the local authorities in Scotland the need to give mortgages on older properties there?

Mr. Amery: The hon. Gentleman has asked about my talks with the building societies. My statement today is confined to local authority lending. I hope that the hon. Gentleman will be grateful for the large mercies which we have advanced. I will make a statement about the building societies when I have concluded my discussions with them. I should be grateful if the hon. Gentleman would put his question to the Secretary of State for Scotland, not to me.

Mr. Julius Silverman: Whilst broadly welcoming the Minister's statement today, will not this be quite meaningless unless local authorities use the powers vested in them?
Will the Minister tell us how many local authorities at the present time are not lending up to their quotas? To my knowledge there are quite a large number not doing so. Also, what steps will the Minister take to ensure that local authorities use their powers and lend the money to those who need it?

Mr. Amery: One of the reasons which led me to the decision which I have just announced was that under the system inherited from the previous Government Liverpool, Sheffield, Leeds and several London boroughs had to stop lending money in the autumn of last year because there was no money left for them to lend.

Mr. Allason: Will my right hon. Friend give widespread publicity to the advantage of home ownership in order that a very large number of people can avail themselves of his generous scheme?

Mr. Amery: My hon. Friend is right to stress the point that possession of an asset like a home is a great advantage for anyone who sees an opportunity or is faced with a misfortune. We should encourage this as much as we can.

Mr. Blenkinsop: Will the Minister give special attention to the position of the development areas because of the need for wider choice of homes in those areas? Will he consider withdrawing the special categories from those areas because of the general need to encourage building?

Mr. Amery: I should stress that the right hon. Member for Coventry, East (Mr. Crossman) tried to limit categories. I have tried not only to give certain categories which will be eligible but to say that I will also consider other categories where equivalent priority can be established.

Mr. Tebbit: Does my right hon. Friend accept, first, that the mean and carping reception given to his statement by right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite is probably not because they do not want to encourage home ownership but because they are tired and dispirited after traipsing through the Lobbies last night?
Secondly, will my right hon. Friend give an estimate of how much expenditure from public funds we can expect from this new proposal?

Mr. Amery: I agree with my hon. Friend about the failure of right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite to keep the red flag flying this morning. This was noted by hon. Members on both sides of the House.
I cannot give any estimate of the cost, because what we have done is to lift the ceiling. However, I should be extremely surprised if it did not involve a very substantial increase on any limit set by the previous Government.

Mr. Buchan: Does the Minister agree that whatever this proposal may do for England it is of no relevance to the Scottish situation? is it not time that we had an answer from the Secretary of State for Scotland on this matter? In Scotland it will be seen as replacing a financial ceiling with a tragic human ceiling, because the first three categories which he mentioned—the homeless, the overcrowded, and those high on the list for council houses—are precisely the people who can afford it least, and this will not serve as an excuse for the Scottish Office to fall back even further in the housing programme. I hope that the Minister will tell his right hon. Friend that.

Mr. Amery: It is not for me to speak about Scottish matters; but, with my right hon. Friend's permission, I should think that what I have just said would be very much welcomed by the homeless in Glasgow. Perhaps the hon. Gentleman would care to put down a Question to my right hon. Friend.

Sir H. Legge-Bourke: I warmly welcome my right hon. Friend's statement today. Will he bear in mind that many people, because of the comparatively low basic rate of remuneration which they draw compared with their actual earnings, be they agricultural workers or road haulage drivers, are very often prevented from getting a building society loan or mortgage? Will my right hon. Friend therefore consider suggesting to the local authorities that it is these categories of worker which might particularly be eligible for this help?

Mr. Amery: Yes. I think that my hon. Friend will follow from what I said in my statement that, apart from the categories which I have defined, I am ready to receive representations from local authorities about particular classes of people which would also qualify for the same kind of priority. They would vary from area to area and might be the kind of people to whom my hon. Friend was referring.

Mr. Simon Mahon: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that those who come from areas like Merseyside always appreciate and welcome anything which makes the housing situation in such places a bit easier? I have never objected to people buying their own homes. I agree with it in principle and I always have. I do not remember my party differing from me in any way on that issue.
Does the Minister agree that it has always been hard to purchase houses? Therefore we welcome what he is doing. But if the principle is good for some is it not also good for the war disabled, the disabled and the chronic sick?

Mr. Amery: I am prepared to review all categories of this kind, if they are proposed to me by the local authorities, and I welcome what the hon. Member has said. I was very glad to hear him say that he has no objection to the extension of home ownership. Perhaps the difference between his party and ours is that we welcome it, as well as having no objection to it.

Mr. Hugh Jenkins: Is it not regrettable that the Minister did not mention newly married couples as one of his categories? Is this not a very great need? What action does he propose to take to meet the needs of these couples, which cannot be met in many other ways? Is it not also true that in May, when we recapture control of many local authorities, we shall start spending the money? Will the right hon. Gentleman undertake that when that happens he will not seek to put any ceiling on it?

Mr. Amery: The hon. Member is on to a very good point when he mentions newly married couples, and I am well aware of their need. Of course, many of them would be able to meet their

need through the building societies. Others would come into the categories which I have mentioned. I do not wish to make newly married couples a category in themselves. I know many who are quite well off and do not need to qualify for this special provision. Of course I shall not be influenced by the political colour of a local authority. In helping it to extend home ownership I will do everything I can to help.

Mr. Crosland: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that through the introduction of the option mortgage scheme, through the encouragement of local authority mortgage lending and through the introduction of 100 per cent. mortgages, the Labour Party did more than any previous Government to encourage private home ownership? Is he also aware that under the Labour Government for the first time in British history 50 per cent. of our houses were owner-occupied?

Mr. Amery: It would be difficult to pervert the truth more totally than the right hon. Gentleman has just done.

Several Hon. Members: rose—

Mr. Speaker: Order. We appear to be entering the area of debate rather than the search for information. I must protect the business of the day.

Dr. Dickson Mabon: On a point of order. If it is in order for the Minister for Housing and Construction to answer on behalf of other Ministers and to say that he is making a statement on behalf of other Ministers, is it in order for that same Minister then to refer fair questions which are put to him to other Ministers to be answered at some other time? Is this not a complete abuse of the procedure of the House? Is it not unfair that we should be left in this state of dissatisfaction? Why does the Secretary of State hide behind the Minister in this?

Mr. Speaker: It may be right or wrong, it may be fair or unfair, but it is not a matter for the Chair. Ministers must take responsibility for their own answers.

Mr. Freeson: Further to that point of order. Reverting to your remark, Mr. Speaker, that this should be a time for seeking after information, could I draw your attention to the fact that one specific


question seeking information was not answered? Perhaps the Minister would like to take the opportunity—

Mr. Speaker: Order. I was encouraged when I was elected to try to avoid what one of my predecessors, using a rather strong epithet which I have never used, called "fraudulent" points of order. The content of a Minister's answer has nothing to do with the Chair; whether or not he has answered, or what he has said is not for me. If the House changes its Standing Orders and makes it a matter for me, then I would be very ready to comment, but at the moment I have no power to do so.

Mr. Freeson: Further to that point of order—

Hon. Members: Sit down.

Mr. Freeson: I am addressing Mr. Speaker. You did use rather strong language just now, Mr. Speaker. You are entitled to do so, but may I draw your attention to the fact that I was not a sking—

Sir H. Legge-Bourke: Arrogant.

Mr. Freeson: —for a bogus point to be settled. I was asking not for an answer to be queried but for the answer to a question which was not given to us at all.

Mr. Speaker: I certainly do not want to be unauly unfair or strict with the hon. Member. I am in the hands of the House on this. The Chair can only be as strong as the House will allow it to be, but I have had it impressed upon me again and again that I must try to stop points of order which are not points of order—[HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] When hon. Members on one side applaud that statement, I hope they would applaud equally strongly a similar comment on a point of order coming from their own side of the House. This is a matter in which the whole House is interested. One

must try to get on with the business according to the rules of order.

Several Hon Members: rose—

Mr. Buchan: On a point of order and genuinely seeking your guidance, Mr. Speaker. This has now become a general practice. This is not a particular point on a particular question nor the particular Minister who has answered today. But it has now become the general practice that statements have been made with which the Secretary of State for Scotland has been associated. When we have asked questions about them, we have been told that they should be referred to the Secretary of State, who by definition of the statement is not coming before the House to make the statement. How, then, are we to be protected in this way? Perhaps the Leader of the House may wish to answer this rather than you, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker: The hon. Member is on a real point, but it is not for me to attempt to answer it. This is a matter for representations—

Mr. Buchan: For the Leader of the House.

Mr. Speaker: No, it is a matter for representations, I think, through the usual channels, to see whether the wishes of the House can be met in this matter. It is not a question of order for me at a time when we have a very important debate in front of us.

BILL PRESENTED

WELSH WATER CORPORATION

Mr. James Scott-Hopkins presented a Bill to establish a water corporation for Wales with power to take over and develop the water resources of Wales and to sell water; and for purposes connected therewith: And the same was read the First time; and ordered to be read a Second time upon Friday 2nd April and to be printed [Bill 137].

Orders of the Day — INDUSTRIAL RELATIONS BILL

[6TH ALLOTTED DAY]

Order for Third Reading read.—[Queen's Consent, on behalf of the Crown, signified.]

Mr. Speaker: Before I call the Secretary of State, I must tell the House that I have had requests to speak from a great many hon. Members. Therefore, I hope that there will be a certain amount of self-restraint in the length of speeches. Being greatly daring, perhaps I might hope that the Front Benches will also take some part in this process of self-restraint.

3.56 p.m.

The Secretary of State for Employment (Mr. Robert Carr): I beg to move, That the Bill be now read the Third time.
By tonight, the House of Commons will have put its seal on the first comprehensive Industrial Relations Bill in British history, and so at last in this sector of national life Britain will be on an equal footing with all other advanced industrialised states, from socialist Sweden on the one hand to capitalist Canada and the United States on the other. So at last in this sector the British trade union leader and the British industrial worker will be on an equal footing with the union leaders and industrial workers in other countries in seeking their fair share of a growing national prosperity and hoping to catch up with the losses which, relatively to the workers and the union leaders in other countries, they have been suffering in recent years.
Anyone looking objectively at the position in this country can be in no doubt about the need for action in this field or about the fact that action is the wish of the majority of the British electorate. The fanatical and, as it has sometimes seemed, almost mindless opposition to the Bill—

Mr. Stanley Orme: Thank you very much.

Mr. Joseph Ashton: It is a mindless Bill.

Mr. Carr: —has been the act of a totally unrepresentative minority, cer-

tainly a minority of the country, and probably a minority among Labour Party voters.
It has been reported that last night the Leader of the Opposition, in exhorting his supporters to action, quoted the Agincourt speech:
And gentlemen in England, now a-bed Shall think themselves accurs'd they were not here…
About half the Parliamentary Labour Party were in bed. Whether they think themselves accursed or blessed is another matter, and only they can say. In contrast, my hon. Friends were not in bed. They have been here day in and day out, night in and night out, and in thanking them for their unfailing support I am sure they know that they have been supporting the wish of the British people and have been acting in the true interests of the nation.
A point which I hope may not be controversial: I am sure that no Minister conducting a Bill could ever have been better supported by his Ministerial colleagues than I have been by my hon. and learned Friend the Solicitor-General and my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State to my Department.
I will recapitulate briefly on the need for this legislation and what is in the Bill now that it has reached this stage. The British tradition in industrial relations has been one of national bargaining between national employers' leaders and national trade union leaders, and in this field we have a record in which we led the world and of which we can be proud. As a result, compared with other countries we have suffered for many years from relatively few major national strikes. It is these major and national strikes which clock up the large losses of working days, and our strike record measured in that way has been for a long period relatively good compared with that of many other countries. It has, of course, been worse than some. It has been worse than, for example, the Scandinavian countries, Western Germany and Holland. On the other hand, it has been much better than many others, such as Canada, the United States, Australia and one or two in Europe.

Mr. John Prescott: Countries which have these laws.

Mr. Carr: Our failure has not been in this sphere of national bargaining and in the breakdown of industrial relations, leading to the national strikes which give cause to these large losses—losses directly attributable to strikes—that are recorded. That is not where our failure has been. Our failure has been in the informal system of local bargaining at company and plant level which has grown up alongside the formal national system and which, particularly in the last 20 years, has grown considerably in importance as an activity, as an expression of shop floor interest and increasing shop floor power, and in the sense that it has contributed, compared with the national negotiations, to substantially increasing proportions of the pay and other benefits of the ordinary industrial worker in British industry.
It is here, in this informal system of company and plant bargaining, that the breakdown in the British system has occurred, so that compared with other countries we have had a large number of strikes. For many years about 95 per
cent. of all our strikes have been unofficial in the sense that they have been, if not actually contrary to union orders, at least started without any union authority.

Mr. Orme: To begin with.

Mr. Carr: I said that they started without union authority, which is a very important point indeed. Most have been unconstitutional in the sense that they have been contrary to agreed procedures.
This type of strike may usually be small in scale. It may also usually be short in duration. It may not, therefore, directly produce the millions of man days lost clocked up in the strike figures recorded in that way. But this type of strike is peculiarly disruptive and damaging in a modern economy with a growing intensification of capital investment and a growing interdependence of one sector of industry on another—supplier to assembler to customer—and where stability of production is increasingly important; "important" is an understatement.
That diagnosis was agreed by the Donovan Commission, which said that the problem was peculiar to this country. It also said that the problem was both

serious and urgent. That was in 1968, nearly three years ago. Since the Donovan Report was published the position has got much worse. Indeed, it is this escalation which is one of the most serious aspects of the problem with which we have to deal and which makes action imperative.
This is clearly seen if one looks, as the Donovan Commission looked, at the record of the number of strikes throughout British employment outside the coal-mining industry which, for various reasons, has been a special case and where, thank goodness, the trend has been in the opposite and right direction.

Mr. Orme: On a voluntary basis.

Mr. Carr: The Donovan Commission pointed out that to obtain the trend of what was happening one needed to look at the picture outside coalmining. If one does that one finds that in the 1950s we averaged just under 600 strikes a year, and that seemed bad enough. There was not all that much variation in the number of strikes from year to year. However, the average for the 1960s was not 600 but 1,600 and the escalation became particularly bad as the decade drew to an end.
Thus, in 1968 there were over 2,000 strikes. In 1969 there was almost 3,000. In 1970 there were nearly 4,000. This has been the degree of escalation and, in face of this and in face of the fact that this type of action is peculiarly damaging to a modern economy, no Government with any sense of responsibility could let things slide and take no action.
The Labour Government recognised this fact. The Deputy Leader of the Opposition, when Chancellor of the Exchequer, made the position very clear in his Budget speech on 15th April, 1969, when he said:
Moreover, no observer of the British economy can doubt that the present climate of industrial relations is a serious obstacle to the attainment of our economic objectives and that the improvement of that climate should be a major aim of policy.
He went on:
In particular, we need to facilitate"—
[Interruption.] This is what the then Chancellor said—

Mr. William Hamilton: Make your own speech.

Mr. Carr: He said:
In particular we need to facilitate the smooth working of the process of collective bargaining in industry and to help to prevent the occurrence of unnecessary and damaging disputes, of which we have seen all too much recently and which are totally incompatible with our economic objectives."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 15th April, 1969; Vol. 781, c. 1005–6.]
That was the Deputy Leader of the Opposition—

Mr. Charles Loughlin: This is supposed to be a Third Reading debate.

Mr. Carr: I have quoted what was said in 1969 by—

Mr. Loughlin: On a point of order. I think it is true to say that on Third Reading one's remarks must be restricted to what is in the Bill and that one is not entitled to range over as wide an area as one might cover on Second Reading. Will you please see that the right hon. Gentleman's attention is drawn to this fact, Mr. Speaker?

Mr. Speaker: Throughout the discussion of this Bill the Chair has tried to be reasonably lenient. What is sauce for the goose is, of course, sauce for the gander. I hope, however, that hon. and right hon. Gentlemen on both sides will bear in mind that this is a Third Reading debate.

Mr. Loughlin: Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. I think that is a very dangerous Ruling—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."]—if I may say so with due respect to you. It is axiomatic that in a Third Reading debate one can deal only with that which is in the Bill. I ask you to rule accordingly.

Mr. Speaker: It is for the Chair to interpret the rules of order reasonably. I prefer that right hon. and hon. Members stick to what is in the Bill.

Mr. Kenneth Lewis: Despite the protestations of right hon. and hon. Members opposite in relation to what my right hon. Friend has just said, is it not noteworthy that the ex-Chancellor of the Exchequer, the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Stechford (Mr. Roy Jenkins), has been significant by his lack of support in opposition

to the Bill and by his lukewarm activities in the Division Lobbies last night and at other times?

Mr. Carr: I thank my hon. Friend for his remarks and the House will judge their force. I assure you, Mr. Speaker, and the House that I believe it essential in dealing with what is in the Bill to judge it in the context of what has to be done. That is all I am doing.
The point I am making is simply that the Labour Government believed that legislative action was necessary. They decided to define a policy, but events and figures showed manifestly that it failed. They believed that legislative action was necessary and urgent in 1969. I believe the facts show that it was even more urgent when we came to power in 1970. That is the genesis of the need for these measures. The Labour Government believed that legislation was an essential part of the remedy—so do we. Certainly no opponents of what is in the Bill offered any credible alternative but merely destructive criticism.
What is this legislation meant to do and what is it not meant to do? In view of some of the criticism levelled at it it may be more important to make clear what it does not do and what it is not meant to do and to destroy some of the misconceptions about it. That may be the best way to make clear what the Bill's real purpose is and what its effect will be.
First of all, it is not intended to seek to cure all the problems I have outlined by direct action of the law and, least of all, by punitive action in dealing with individual "offenders". It does not attempt to do that—to attempt it would be madness. We reject that type of solution absolutely, and it has no part in what is in the Bill.
Secondly, it is not intended to replace, in spite of all that has been said, nor does it replace, the voluntary system of British industrial relations by a legalistic system. Voluntary action is the main way in which we shall be able to solve our problems. But the history of recent years shows that voluntary action un-supported by legislative action to create new pressures and incentives for a constructive approach has no chance of success. Therefore, we regard the Bill as, and we are sure that it will prove itself to


be, an indispensable support for constructive voluntary action by managements and trade unions alike.

Mr. T. L. Iremonger: rose—

Mr. Carr: I would rather not give way in view of Mr. Speaker's request for brevity.
Again, the Bill is not meant to interfere with good existing arrangements in industry. In spite of the bad and deteriorating situation to which I have drawn attention—and it is very serious in some important sectors and, unfortunately large sectors of industry—let us not forget that in much of British industry and, thank goodness, in the majority of British firms relations are good and constructive and the Bill will not interfere with those areas. It will not impose disruptive change where change is not needed.

Mr. Orme: Yes, it will.

Mr. Carr: Where agreements are kept, for example, there need be no argument because of the Bill about making them legally binding. All we are concerned about is that agreements should be kept, not that they should be legally binding as such. Agreements must be good and they must be kept. Where that is so the legislation will not make any difference. So I say to all those managements, to all those trade union leaders at national and official level, and to all those shop stewards—and, thank goodness, they are in the majority too—in factories where relations are good the Bill will not cause them any difficulty.
The new procedures—for example, the new machinery for settling recognition disputes and for providing procedure agreements where they are not existent or are defective—are not for general imposition but for dealing with disputes. They are for protecting the drop-outs of the voluntary system, not for replacing that voluntary system. Where the voluntary system works as we all want it to work these procedures will not be necessary. They are there only for dealing with failures. Nevertheless, it would be foolish to stick our heads in the sand and pretend that the failures do not exist or that they are not serious and causing damage.
The Bill is not meant to settle industrial disputes in courts of law. Perhaps one of the big omissions in our debates has been any real attention to the importance which the Bill gives to conciliation. It gives conciliation a major part to play. When the Bill becomes law conciliation will have a bigger part to play in the country's industrial relations than ever before. There will be a considerable increase in the staff available to provide conciliation, both in my Department and in such institutions as the C.I.R.
Before the national industrial courts and industrial tribunals can even hear a case they are under a duty to ensure that the parties have had made available to them opportunities for conciliation. Before industrial tribunals can hear an unfair dismissal case conciliation officers have to try to reach a voluntary settlement. Before the procedures to which I referred a moment ago for dealing with recognition disputes can be used the Secretary of State is under a duty to attempt conciliation. When these cases have got to the C.I.R., the C.I.R. is put under a duty to try to reach a voluntary agreement between the parties.
Above all, the Bill's purpose is to provide pressures and incentives for constructive voluntary action. We seek to do this in five broad ways. First, the legislation provides a new comprehensive system of rules for managements, trade unions and individuals. It lays down for the first time what in the judgment of the community, expressed through this House, is unfair and what is fair in the conduct of industrial relations and in dealing with industrial disputes. Though we may differ—and, of course, these have to be subjective judgments—in our definitions of what are fair and what are unfair industrial practices, we ought not to differ in the concept of laying down for the benefit of industry and the community standards of what is fair or unfair in the conduct of industrial relations and in the procedures for solving industrial disputes.
Second, the Bill provides special procedures and machinery for dealing with certain intractable causes of disputes, such as disputes about recognition and lack of proper procedural agreements, and so on.
Third, the Bill provides special procedures for protecting the public interest


in disputes of major national importance. It provides for the possibility of a cooling off period in such a dispute where there seems to be reasonable cause to suppose that a further period for negotiation might avoid the dispute and the damage to the country which would flow from it. The second emergency procedure of that kind is the possibility of a secret ballot. Where the dispute is serious and the livelihood of the majority of workers in the industry concerned is endangered and where there is evidence of difference of opinion amongst the workers concerned there should be provision for a secret ballot to be held. One wonders whether the country and the workers might not have been better off if, for example, that provision had been on the Statute Book during the recent Post Office dispute.
Fourth, the Bill gives its provision for a code of practice which will lay down guidelines and standards which we believe can help to raise the average level of the conduct of human relations a lot nearer to the best. Let us remember that where the conduct of human relations in British industry is at its best, it is good by any international standard that one can find.
Fifth, the Bill lays down important new rights for individual workers throughout employment. The Bill is being misrepresented as a threat to the individual worker. It is being said that the Bill makes it dangerous even to grumble about conditions of work. That is utter nonsense. First, the ordinary mass of workers is absolutely protected under the Bill. No court can order them to work or not to work. The Bill bears only on those who induce unfair industrial action, and "inducing" means far more than grumbling. "Inducing" involves the concept of positive persuasion of other people—

Mr. Orme: Talking to other people.

Mr. Carr: —with intent to produce the industrial action. Positive persuasion is very different from grumbling. I am sure that this sort of propaganda—

Mr. Orme: The right hon. Gentleman must be joking.

Mr. Carr: —will soon rebound, because I am sure—

Mr. Eric S. Heffer: rose—

Mr. Carr: —that the ordinary British worker will continue to grumble, as he has always done, and he certainly will not find himself in prison, as the misrepresenters try to make out.

Mr. Heffer: Is the right hon. Gentleman not saying that in future it will be perfectly permissible under the Bill for workers to grumble but if any of them attempt to do anything about their grumble by organising some sort of action to put their grumble right, if it is an unfair industrial practice under the Bill, then they can be in trouble and can find themselves before the courts, and if they refuse to pay the fines, which the right hon. Gentleman calls "compensation", they can ultimately be imprisoned?

Mr. Carr: No. The hon. Gentleman has got it wrong as usual. The only possibility of anybody finding themselves in prison is not under this Bill. It exists today. Anybody, whether he be a trade unionist or any other sort of citizen in this country, who persistently and flagrantly flouts an order of a British court of justice can in the last resort—

Mr. Orme: An industrial court.

Mr. Carr: —find himself in prison. That is no different under the Bill from what it is today, and he certainly cannot find himself there for failing to pay compensation, because, as the hon. Member for Liverpool, Walton (Mr. Heffer) knows, or should know, the possibility of imprisonment for civil debt has recently been removed by Statute. What the hon. Gentleman and so many people forget is that the individual inducer and leader of the industrial action, so long as he is acting for and on behalf of his trade union with the proper authority of his trade union, is protected by the Bill in a way that he has never been protected before.
It has not been uncommon for actions to be taken in recent years. There was the Torquay Hotel case of a few years ago. The order of the court—the injunction, as it was then called—was not just against the union but against Mr. Cousins, personally as the then leader of the union. Had there been contempt of court Mr. Cousins could have been personally


responsible. Of course the injunction was obeyed, as it always has been. But under our Bill an order can only be against the corporate body, the union, and not against the union official. Therefore, the union official is protected under the Bill in a way that he has never been protected before, as long as he is acting within the scope of his authority on behalf of his union. Far from taking away individual human rights, the Bill is an important new charter of new rights.
The Bill provides the right to join a union. It also provides the right not to be compelled to join. It provides protection against unfair dismissal by employers, and protection against unfair disciplinary action by unions. It provides rights to better contracts of employment for the individual and longer periods of notice. It provides rights to the individual to be told, as a shareholder is told, about the affairs of his company. The right to consultation will be a major item in our code of practice. These are important new rights. We are not taking away rights.
Finally, the pressure which the Bill will place on management is something which we have not heard much about but is very real. It provides pressures which will force management to recognise unions in a way which has never existed before; pressure which will force managements to give information, to consult, to initiate better procedures and to respond more quickly to grievances. Any employer who imagines that the Bill will automatically remove his problems and reduce his responsibilities is greatly mistaken. What it will do is to give employers a better chance and a more favourable environment in which to exercise their responsibilities and to provide real leadership.
Clause 2 of the Bill specifically states the primary responsibility of management in ensuring good industrial relations. As I have said before, if top management does not lead who can follow? The message, among others, which I want the House as it gives the Bill a Third Reading to send to industry is a message to boards of directors and top management. "The responsibility is yours", is what the House ought to be saying to them, and, "We are now providing the climate in which you can exercise that responsibility, and Parlia-

ment and the country will hold you to account if you fail."
The Bill offers no rapid magic cure. Changes in long established practices and attitudes cannot be effected overnight. The law cannot compel change. But the law can and does influence the way men think and behave, and that influence is continuous and cumulative. We believe that the pressures and incentives provided by the Bill and the code of practice which will soon be published under it, will inform and change opinion and will develop for the better the way in which managements and unions develop their procedures and attitudes and the ways in which they do their business together. We believe that it will be an influence for great public good, as well as great personal good for all who work in industry, in the years which lie ahead.

Mr. Speaker: Before I call the right hon. Member for Blackburn (Mrs. Castle), I want to add to the Ruling which I gave earlier about the width of a Third Reading debate.
A Third Reading debate is not confined to the actual words or phrase in the Bill. It is concerned with the matters contained in the Bill and, therefore, a certain width of discussion is allowed. Although the discussion is not as wide as that in a Second Reading debate, it is wrong for hon. Members to think that they are limited to a discussion of words phrases and Clauses. The debate can cover the matters contained in the Bill.

4.30 p.m.

Mrs. Barbara Castle: I begin by congratulating the Secretary of State on having brought perhaps the most complex and complicated Bill in our parliamentary history to its Third Reading stage with so little physical effort to himself.
The right hon. Gentleman has moved the Third Reading, and I thought that his tribute to the Solicitor-General was slightly perfunctory. After all, the hon. and learned Gentleman has borne the heat and burden of the day. He is without doubt the real star of this legal relations Bill. He moved into No. 8, St. James's Square last summer to draft the Bill, and he is still drafting it. We have been voting on some of his second thoughts all night.
He has been put up to explain Clauses which no one else could understand, including the Secretary of State. I have in mind, for example, that tricky little trio of Clauses, 85, 86 and 87. As a result, whereas the right hon. Gentleman has contributed just over 1,000 column inches of HANSARD to our Committee stage and Report stage debates, the Solicitor-General has contributed nearly 2,000. It is he who stood at the Dispatch Box hour after hour interpreting his own law, even though he had to come back later, as he did on Clause 33, to tell us that his original interpretation was wrong. But, then, he is only an eminent silk. No doubt shop stewards will make a better job of it. The Solicitor-General has even been put on television, where that downbeat technique of his is very effective. I must congratulate him. He can throw away a trade union right in a throw-away line better than anyone on the Government Front Bench.
The job of the Secretary of State is very different. He is the genius of the generalisation and the manufacturer of the moral tone. In his Third Reading speech, with that rather trying analytical Committee stage behind him, he has been happily back on his own stumping ground.
It has been very interesting to see the dual roles in this little partnership. The Solicitor-General, the author and the interpreter of the legal framework, really has had to tell the House what the Bill is about, and only he can tell the House. The Secretary of State is more at home with the code of practice, and we learn from the Press that it is on that that he has been really busy in the last few weeks. While we have been trying to understand the Clauses of the Bill, the right hon. Gentleman has been in the background busily drawing up the code of practice, which we are now told is to be the most important part of the Bill.
Unlike the Bill, the code is reported to be really tough with management. It is said that it will really rub the nose of management in the fact that the creation of good industrial relations with its workpeople is its primary responsibility. We had a little passage on that theme just now when the right hon. Gentleman outlined the general principles in Part I which are to be the guiding principles for the Secretary of State, the C.I.R. and

the courts, with which, I dare say, the right hon. Gentleman had a lot to do. It was not before time. The right hon. Gentleman forgot to mention the duties of management until he received strong representations from the Industrial Society and until the omission was pointed out vigorously from this side of the House. All that I can say to the right hon. Gentleman is that the Industrial Society never had to pressurise me about my basic principles.

Mr. R. Carr: Then will the right hon. Lady explain why the spokesman on her side of the House chosen to speak on the Amendment which put into the Bill the primary responsibility of management opposed it?

Mrs. Castle: The right hon. Gentleman has just been telling us that his doctrine of good industrial relations starts with management. Therefore, it is his Bill with which we are concerned today, as we have been during the past five weeks or more. The introduction of this afterthought in Clause 2(2)(a), or wherever it is, is not in the provisions of the Bill. It is in the code of practice which the right hon. Gentleman told us had a very different legal status. He said that only yesterday and explained that that was why we could not amend the code.

Mr. William Hamilton: We have not seen it yet.

Mrs. Castle: As my hon. Friend says, what is even more ludicrous is that we have not seen the right hon. Gentleman's code of practice yet.
We are now at the Third Reading stage, about to pass the Bill to another place, if the Government get their way. I suggest that nothing could be more indicative of the attitude of the Government and the subservience of their followers than that they should rush through the House the legal framework in indecent haste and then invite Parliament to discuss the principles.
Let us look at what the right hon. Gentleman says that he wants to achieve in industrial relations and at how his Bill is supposed to achieve these purposes. The intervention during the right hon. Gentleman's speech by my hon. Friend the Member for Gloucestershire, West (Mr. Loughlin) was perfectly justified. At a Third Reading stage, we expect rather more than Second Reading homilies. We


are now concerned not with what the right hon. Gentleman says that he wants to do but with whether the Bill achieves his purposes. On television and in speeches in this House and outside it, the right hon. Gentleman has spelled out those aims. He spelled them out again today. They always sound impeccable. In the initial stages of the right hon. Gentleman's speech, my hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, Walton (Mr. Heffer) turned to me and said, "If the Bill was really like that, we would be voting for it". [HON. MEMBERS: "Why not?"] I know that hon. Members opposite love to take things on trust. But we have not had chapter and verse from the right hon. Gentleman to justify that, and I want to give some chapter and verse before they rush so happily to pass the Bill.
We are told that it is the Government's aim to strengthen trade unionism, that they want to encourage the voluntary reform of collective bargaining. We are told that the Government want to safeguard the right to strike. They had a go at my hon. Friend the Member for Walton about that. All the right hon. Gentleman wants to do, we are told, is to get at what he calls the genuine wildcat who breaks his agreement and defies his union.
What could be more innocent, and what could be more in keeping with Donovan? The only trouble is that it does not accord with what the Prime Minister has time and again promised his followers in the Conservative Party about what would be done to the trade unions. It does not accord with the rôle for which the Government have cast the unions in their political demonology, as the authors of all the country's economic problems, and the alibi for the Government's betrayal of their promises. Above all, it does not accord with the Bill itself.
The right hon. Gentleman has accused us of misrepresenting the Bill. My heavens!—one does not have to misrepresent it; one merely has to understand it That is why most of it has been drafted in terms incomprehensible to the layman, and even to those respected correspondents in the Press Gallery.
I start with the specious proposition that the Bill is designed to strengthen trade unionism. We learned a good deal about that one in Committee. Under cover of obeisance to the I.L.O. prin-

ciple that every worker ought to have the right to belong to a trade union, the right hon. Gentleman has built into our law, for the first time in our history, the statutory right not to belong to a trade union. That is a curious way to start on the reform of industrial relations, the reform of which, as Donovan pointed out, depends on the extension of the organisation of workers in trade unions.
Not only that. The right hon. Gentleman has made it an unfair industrial practice punishable under the law for anyone, employer or union, to do anything to "prevent or deter" anyone from exercising his right to non-unionism. Then he dares to say that the Bill reflects the philosophy of Donovan, when it was Donovan who dismissed the suggestion that one could or should equate the right not to belong to a union with the right to belong. For, as Donovan said,
…the two are not truly comparable. The former condition is designed to frustrate the development of collective bargaining, which it is public policy to promote, whereas no such objections applies to the latter.
So obviously disastrous are the implications of the Bill for the whole mental attitude of employers and some workers towards trade unionism that even hon. Members opposite, when we were discussing Clause 5 in Committee, began to feel uneasy. The hon. Member for Basingstoke (Mr. David Mitchell), of all people—who, I see, is springing to his feet, as usual, before the sentence is complete—put it to his right hon. Friend that what we have in the Bill is, in effect, an incitement to people not to join a union.
We honoured the hon. Gentleman when he exercised his independent judgment on the Bill and told his right hon. Friend that it did not achieve the ostensible purpose of strengthening the trade unions but did just the contrary. The hon. Gentleman the Member for Basingstoke was not alone. There were others who put it to their own Government. "It is all very well having the principle in Tory philosophy that everyone should have a right not to belong to a trade union, but what we are doing, when we pretend to build up the unions, is in fact, to undermine them".
So great was the pressure from both sides of the House that the right hon. Gentleman had solemnly to import into the Bill on Report a provision saying that it shall not actually be illegal for an


employer to encourage a worker to join a union. So much, therefore, for the mental attitudes behind the Bill.
The belated Amendment to which I have just referred is, of course, a laughable amelioration, for it does not begin to mitigate the rest of the bias in the Bill against trade unionism. Despite all our efforts, the right hon. Gentleman has not been prised away from the alien concept of the agency shop, a concept imported from elsewhere into the British system of industrial relations for the express purpose of embodying in our collective bargaining system the right not to belong to a union.
A 100-per-cent. union shop is still illegal under the Bill even if the employer has voluntarily entered into it, even if the employer says that it suits his purposes. In pursuit of doctrinaire hostility and a desire to gain the plaudits of the back benches at the Conservative Party conference, we have to go ahead with that disastrous formula which is the laughingstock of British industry.
The right hon. Gentleman's agency shop provisions mean that trade unionists are forfeiting what is to them a fundamental part of their collective strength, the right to refuse to work with non-unionists. All they are getting in exchange is the agency shop, where, if the employer agrees, it can be made a condition of employment not that workers belong to a union but that they pay contributions in lieu.
The right hon. Gentleman seems to think that redounds enormously to his credit, because, he said, he was not allowing the "free-rider" to get away with it. It is true that under this provision the non-unionist will have to pay in terms of contribution in lieu for the benefits which he receives from the work of trade unionists, but—for heaven's sake—the right hon. Gentleman would not have dared to make the claims he does unless he had made that minimal gesture of fair play. The important factor, as anyone who understands the realities of industrial relations knows, is that the non-unionist still does not have to pay in the most realistic terms of all, that is, in terms of an obligation to contribute his support to the collective pressure which alone can bring the benefits which he enjoys.
But even then, when the trade unions have jumped through that hoop, they have not jumped through all the hoops set for them by the right hon. Gentleman. If the employer refuses to turn a union shop into an agency shop—undoubtedly, there are numbers of employers waiting to jump at the opportunity—everyone has to go through the elaborate machinery at the end of which a ballot must be held.
"What is wrong with that?", asks the right hon. Gentleman, "Do we not believe in democracy, and do we not want to see democracy applied in trade unionism?". But he goes on to apply to trade unions a definition of democracy which would make parliamentary democracy unworkable, a definition of a majority under which probably none of us now in the House would qualify as M.P.s. I think that it was Winston Churchill who once defined a majority by saying that "one is enough".
The right hon. Gentleman reserves a special type of democracy for trade unions. They must win a majority of those eligible to vote, a principle which has outraged the sense of fair play even of the subservient hon. Members opposite. The right hon. Gentleman knows that it has been adversely commented on by
everyone who is anxious to strengthen industrial relations. When we pressed him on the matter in Committee and put down Amendments to alter the requirement to a majority of those voting, he was adamant, saying that he was giving so much to the trade unions through his agency shop provisions that he should make it more difficult than that. The fact is that he is deliberately, through this formula, mobilising the law of inertia against trade unions.

Mr. R. Carr: Since the right hon. Lady is claiming to say what I said, may I make clear the sense of what I said? I pointed out that there were two sorts of ballot. One was the ballot for basic recognition, which was on a straight majority of those voting. The second was for something more special, the agency shop, and it required either a larger majority or, as we have chosen, an absolute majority of those eligible to vote. But the two things are different. The basic recognition is on a simple majority


of those voting, as in any other form of election.

Mrs. Castle: What we are talking about on the agency shop is the following situation. The right hon. Gentleman is taking away a trade union's right to win a 100 per cent. union shop for itself and is putting the agency shop provision in its place. Having done that, having made one existing right illegal, he says: "But I am going to give you another one". What does that right consist of? It consists of the fact that if the employer resists the suggestion for an agency shop the ballot provisions apply under which a union faces the impossible task of mobilising a majority of those eligible to vote. In doing this, the right hon. Gentleman is deliberately mobilising the law of inertia against trade unions. Misrepresent the Bill, indeed! Most trade unionists have only just begun to understand what is in it.
When the right hon. Gentleman was challenged on these points in Committee, he was perfectly frank and open about his philosophy. He said that there may have been a time when trade unions were weak and needed such devices as the 100 per cent. union shop, but that now the time had come to adjust the balance of strength in favour of what he called the nonconformist minority—in other words, adjust the balance of power in favour of the non-unionists. Even when it was urged upon him from both sides that this doctrinaire approach could have disruptive effects throughout industry, and that in particularly it would totally ruin certain unions—Equity, the National Union of Seamen and others were mentioned—he insisted that, although he would look at the matter, he was determined not to open the door to trade union rights so wide that too many unions could get through. So his concession, so-called, of the approved closed shop is hedged with so many restrictions as to be almost meaningless.
The right hon. Gentleman admits now, in the new Clause we have debated in the past few weeks, that it is right that the Commission on Industrial Relations should be able to decide whether a closed shop is needed to ensure satisfactory bargaining arrangements in an industry and so on. But when we asked whether a trade union could have the independent

right to approach the C.I.R. for such a rule we were told that that was going too far. Therefore, the union cannot exercise that right unless it has first won the approval of the employer to a joint application to the C.I.R. What is more, it is an unfair industrial practice—in other words, illegal—for the union to use its collective pressure to secure the employer's approval. It cannot use that pressure if the application to the C.I.R. is turned down.
Finally, if an approved closed shop is established, it can, like the agency shop, be challenged at any time by a disgruntled minority, and then again the union is up against the iniquitous principle requiring a majority of those eligible to vote.
Can the right hon. Gentleman, in the face of these details, which those of us who have been through the Committee stage have managed to master and understand, say that he is strengthening trade unionism? What he has done in the Bill in historic terms is this: the country should understand that he has redefined the rights of trade unions on a far more restricted basis than they had won for themselves through the operation of free trade unionism, and has then said that it is illegal to strike for any more than he has given, because he says that he has provided a legal remedy. Can the right hon. Gentleman really say that this strengthens the voluntary system of collective bargaining when Donovan pointed out that that means first and foremost strengthening the organisation of workers on which it depends? How can our voluntary system of collective bargaining be strengthened when employers and unions are denied the right that they have enjoyed for years, and exercised responsibly for years, to work out together in a free society the best arrangements and procedures in an industry to serve their joint interest?
I could not believe my ears when I heard the right hon. Gentleman say that it was iniquitous to suggest that the Bill was intended to interfere with good existing relations in industry. He said that it did nothing of the kind. But what if the good existing relations in industry comprise a voluntary negotiated closed shop or a 100 per cent. union shop? Will he leave that alone? The right hon. Gentleman knows perfectly well that in using


general phrases of the kind he used he is deliberately misleading the country about what the Bill contains.
How can the right hon. Gentleman say that he is encouraging the reform of our industrial relations system and its procedures when he wraps up that system from top to bottom in the cocoon of conclusive presumption that any arrangements entered into by any body, anywhere in the train of negotiations, is intended to be legally enforceable, if it is jotted down anywhere, such as in the minutes of a local works council, unless the legal disclaimer required by the Bill is solemnly written into those minutes? Yet that is what Clause 33 means. We have not had a word about that Clause from the right hon. Gentleman this afternoon, but it is one of the key Clauses. It extends to an area that very few people outside the experts on the Bill have grasped, what had seemed a very simple principle of conclusive presumption that collective agreements at a national, company or plant level were intended to be legally enforceable.
This absurd show of legal enforceability is so ridiculous that, when we pointed out in Committee what the consequences of the Clause were, even the Solicitor-General admitted that this was perhaps carrying his passion for legal frameworks to the point of mania. But he assured us that we were wrong and that, as the Clause was drafted, it would be possible for a once-for-all disclaimer to be written into the minutes. Apparently, if a works council entered such a disclaimer in its minutes on the first day of its existence, that would give it
a dispensation from legal enforceability for the rest of its life. This was so obviously contrary to the wording of the Clause—not only to legal minds but to laymen on this side—that we challenged his interpretation. He said that he would look again at it and if necessary re-draft it. On Report, there was no such redrafting. He would not even have come back to us and pointed out that he had given a false impression of the Clause if we had not brought it into our debate on a side wind through one of the new Clauses. Then he had to admit that he had been wrong in his interpretation and that we were right.
Did that mean that the Solicitor-General would alter his policy? Not a bit of it. It meant that the absurdity which we had pointed out would stand and that we would just have to put up with it. On Report, the Government seized a new opportunity to extend the scope of this law and not diminish it. To the Government, there must be no "no-go" areas in industrial relations, no corner into which the legal cohorts could not enter. Is the right hon. Gentleman surprised that, by Clause 33, he has alarmed every shop steward in the land? Perhaps he is not. Perhaps that is the aim of his policy. When he says on television that the only people who will suffer under the Bill are the genuine wild-cats, he shows a profound misunderstanding of the causes of unofficial strikes. One of our troubles is that the key point of the Government's philosophy is that strikes are caused by a handful of militants and that, if the law can only curb the freedom of the local leaders, there will be no "down tools" strikers and those loyal workers who gave a mandate for the Bill and who are only anxious to work in peace under this benign Government will breathe again.
Hon. Members opposite have not been able to realise what causes the strikes we have today, the vast majority of which spring from the ground swell of individual discontents on the shop floor. It is not the shop stewards who are inciting them; they are merely voicing the insistent demands of the people they represent. As everyone on this side of the House with practical experience of industrial relations has explained time and again, it is the shop steward who, in the overwhelming number of cases, is holding the discontent back, trying to avoid a strike and not inducing it.
If our industrial relations system is to work properly it is essential—I put this to the right hon. Gentleman in all seriousness—that the shop stewards be left free to respond to the pressures crowding in upon them according to their own judgment and in their own way, and should not be able to be told that they will be at legal risk unless they are acting within the scope of their authority—to be spelt out in future in detailed rules which are not only to be approved by the Registrar with far more discretionary powers than are given


under any other industrial relations law in any comparable country, but are also to be policed by him, by dissidents and by the Industrial Court.
The right hon. Gentleman has said, as he has told us before, that he does not claim that industrial relations problems can be solved by the direct action of the law. But we have heard this argument before. We have been told that this vast legal apparatus, spelt out in such complicated and confusing detail in this Bill of 150 Clauses, is to be kept in the background, that the legal powers are to be used only as a last resort, and that it is only a question of getting people into the right attitude of mind.

Mr. Raymond Gower: indicated assent.

Mrs. Castle: It all sounds very plausible as the right hon. Gentleman puts it, but I suggest that he is in no position to make such a claim. What he has done is deliberately to deliver the control of this legal machinery into other peoples' hands. These far-reaching and pernickety legal powers are now at the disposal of any antediluvian employer in British industry whose bad industrial relations may be far more the result of bad management than they are the consequence of any militancy or indiscipline by trade unions. What he has done is to arm the bad boss in British industry with a whole apparatus of new legal powers. He has handed the control of those powers to any disgruntled trade unionist or non-unionist, to any disruptive minority that may be trying to challenge the union which is giving responsible and constructive leadership.
We on this side say that to hand these powers over to managements that have not been compelled first to put their own houses in order is, as Donovan pointed out, a criminal abdication of responsibility. The right hon. Gentleman does it because, for a long time, the Government have had only one political mission in life—to make the trade unions the whipping boy for their economic mismanagement. It stands out a mile that the right hon. Gentleman does not begin to understand trade unionism as we understand it. To us, it is not just a machinery by which men and women negotiate wages and piece work rates and so on, but a means of bringing an element

of democracy into what would otherwise be a totally autocratic environment. This is the whole history of British trade unionism. Unless and until trade unions were strong, the individual workers in British industry were at the mercy of high-handed managements.
When the Government say that trade unions are too strong and that the time has come to adjust the balance—that is the purpose behind the Bill—they show a total lack of understanding of what life is like on the shop floor in modern industry. The Government and hon. Members opposite do not begin to show the element of understanding of the uncertainties and anxieties that crowd in on workers today. If they think that workers feel strong, then they had better get a wage earner's job on the shop floor. Are the workers strong when, at any moment, a remote rationalisation of industry under technological development may bring redundancy, perhaps the end of a man's working life? Of course there is a conflict of interest in industry. Of course to management a worker is just one of the means of production, but to the worker his job is his whole means of life, and he has no rights as a citizen unless he can protect that basic right.
It is said that trade unions are too strong. Does the worker feel too strong when unemployment is rising at the present rate and when workers know that it is part of the Government's economic policy to allow unemployment to rise? Can the Government be surprised when men and women hit back? They hit back out of a sense of weakness and defencelessness.

Mr. Carr: Unemployment doubled under the Labour Government.

Mrs. Castle: Under the right hon. Gentleman it is soaring ahead. He knows perfectly well that the unemployment under us which he has criticised was the by-product of a desperate but successful struggle to put right the balance of payments, and we left the Government a record balance of payments surplus last year of more than £600 million, a firm basis on which the Government could have built policies to overcome inflation if they had gone the right way about it, if they had said that first and foremost their overriding priority was to win the


co-operation and confidence of the trade union movement. But they started at the other end.
The existence of inflation is another cause of deep anxiety on the shop floor. When we look at the figures of wage demands, we have to remember the men and women behind them and perhaps striking behind them, for these figures merely represent an attempt to keep abreast of the cost of living which is constantly going up. The Government have things the wrong way round.
The Government will justify the Bill to the country in the context of inflation, and they will give everybody the impression that strikes are the cause of inflation. In fact, it is inflation which is causing the strikes. It is a matter of historical fact that a rapid rate of inflation is often accompanied by an increase in militancy, for the very reason I have mentioned, that a man uses his union to exert collective pressure from the shop floor as the only weapon he knows which he feels may have an immediate effect.
The right hon. Gentleman began by giving us an analysis of the strike problem. Inflation has been the reason why strikes have been markedly on the increase in recent years. It is only just over a couple of years ago, perhaps three years ago, that more than 50 per cent. of strikes were about issues like the right to trade union recognition, unfair dismissal, some arbitrary action by an employer. We could deal with those causes by positive measures, such as those in the Bill which we put before Parliament. A solution to those could be found by a proper machinery for unfair dismissals.
A solution could be found by first placing responsibility, as we placed it, on management to communicate, to consult, to take workers into its confidence, to provide an opportunity to maintain the status quo when there is a dispute, so that the management does not just railroad through a change of working practice on the shop floor, but, if it finds that it is meeting resistance, withdraws its proposal until it has persuaded its workers that a change must come.
But the percentage is changing and in the last couple of years the bulk of strikes have been about pay. That is to

be explained against the background of the inflationary problem which plagues us all. What is happening under the Government's policy is that the whole, or the major, responsibility for solving our troubles is being placed on the trade unions, and this runs through the Government's entire policy of holding down wage increases to deal with inflation. So of course strikes go on.
The right hon. Gentleman has not kept up to date with his analysis. He said that, fortunately, we had had relatively few major national strikes. Not under this Government ever again.

The Solicitor-General (Sir Geoffrey Howe): The right hon. Lady is saying that during the last couple of years inflation has been the major cause of strikes. Why was it, then, that the Government of which she was a member at the time of her right hon. Friend's Budget speech two years ago expressly abandoned their prices and incomes policy, which was presumably aimed at inflation, in order to replace it by the urgent implementation of legislation designed to curb strikes?

Mrs. Castle: The hon. and learned Gentleman is wrong. The Labour Government never abandoned their prices and incomes policy. What they did was to say that the value of a statutory prices and incomes policy had come to an end, that a statutory prices and incomes policy could never work for any more than a short time in an emergency situation, such as the post-devaluation era in which it was highly successful in helping to keep down inflation. What we said was that we had to establish a voluntary prices and incomes policy and put forward our legislation for the reform of industrial relations.
The right hon. Gentleman knows that we rejected and repudiated all the methods in his Bill. What we have said in our industrial relations reform all along is that we must begin by genuinely strengthening trade unions and by creating an attitude in British management in which it would be prepared to recognise and discharge its own responsibilities.
The right hon. Gentleman said that there had been relatively few major national strikes in this country. Not any


more under this Government. It is immensely significant that, whereas the Government are trying to justify the legislation to the country on the ground that 101 million working days were lost through strikes last year, they are perfectly aware that 6 million working days were lost through the Post Office strike alone. That was because the Government used the postal workers as an example for the discharge of their incomes policy.
The right hon. Gentleman said, "If only we had had a secret ballot in that strike, the result might have been different". Is he so out of touch as not to know that that strike, too, was the product of pressure from below, not the result of inducement, or incitement, or financing, or procuring by any of the leaders in that movement? Of course in the end the ballot was against the strike continuing, because the Government had set out to drive the Post Office workers into the ground. [Interruption.] I know how hon. Members opposite dislike it, but this is the reality of industrial relations. Of course there are problems. There is the problem of inflation and the problem of rising strikes which reflect all the insecurities and uncertainties which inflation brings.
How do we solve that problem? Do we do it by dividing the nation, alienating the trade unions, making that the first act of our policy, as though we can solve any of the problems in our society by making outlaws of the organised workers of the land?
This Bill will not solve the problems of our strikes and certainly not the problems of our society, because it has turned the priorities on their heads. As the strike figures go up, as they will continue to go up under this Government, this Government will respond in the only way they know—by going on to more and more repressive measures against the trade unions like a drug addict who doubles the dose when the dream fades. That is why we say that the Bill is irremedial, that is why we oppose its philosophy and methods root and branch.
No doubt the Government will get the Bill tonight, but what happens then? That will be the time when the laughter on the Government benches begins to die away. Does anyone opposite really think that this Bill will bring about

industrial peace? We can no more amend this Bill than we can reform this Government and that is why we shall get rid of both.

5.21 p.m.

Mr. Tom King: I have to admire the technical skill of the right hon. Member for Blackburn (Mrs. Castle) and the way in which she manages to produce the bricks which she does with some pretty synthetic straw. With the greatest respect, while I recognise her proficiency and the academic attention that she has brought to this subject, I was left, after hearing her speech, with the overpowering impression that she lacked the direct contact with industry, the direct draught of industry that is a notable contribution from other of her hon. Friends.
It was very much the speech and approach of an onlooker to the subject. She has my sympathy. I could feel genuinely for her in her position. She made the comment about a majority of one being enough when quoting Sir Winston Churchill, but the team that she leads has been defeated through much of the night by a majority of over a hundred and I can see her problems.
The country will draw its own conclusions from an incident which occurred half way through her speech when the hon. Member for Liverpool, Walton (Mr. Heffer) found it necessary to draw attention to the lack of hon. Members present. Three Opposition Whips then appeared in the Chamber to try to back her up. I will certainly withdraw if this was purely a coincidence—

Mr. William Hamling: If the hon. Gentleman had used his eyes, he would have seen that there were three Opposition Whips here already, all anxious to speak in the debate.

Mr. King: I said that if it was an unfair accusation I would withdraw. At that time I could not help noticing the extraordinary contrast between the support for my right hon. Friend on the benches behind him and the pathetic support of hon. Members opposite.

Mr. Heffer: Now that the hon. Gentleman has mentioned my name in this context, let us have the position quite clear. I asked my hon. Friends behind me how long some of them were likely to be involved with the lobby of trade


unionists who are here today from all parts of the country because of this Bill. My hon. Friends informed me after investigating the position that my other hon. Friends were likely to be some considerable time because there was a large number of lobbyists coming in to see them about the Bill and to urge them—and I hope hon. Members opposite—to do something about getting rid of it.

Mr. King: Of course I accept what the hon. Member says. I was under the impression that he was concerned about the total lack of support. There was only one hon. Member in the corner opposite and otherwise the benches above the Gangway were virtually deserted.
Before I deal with the reasons for supporting the Bill and what I believe it will do, I wish to refer to something that I believe it will not do. Considerable reference has been made to the introduction of certain aspects of American labour legislation and it has been immediately adduced by the Opposition that we must automatically expect the worst aspects of the American labour situation to be introduced as well.
Anyone with any understanding of the American situation, with a knowledge of the labour rackets and of the labour violence there knows perfectly well that violence is, sadly, a major feature of the American scene. In a nation that has as its folklore heroes such people as Jesse James and Billy the Kid, the land of Al Capone, Tammany Hall, Huey Long; a nation which has behind it the death of such people as John Kennedy, and Martin Luther King, we know that violence is writ large on the American scene. This is not a feature or tradition of the British way of life. The only folk hero who is perhaps enshrined in the British way of life in the same way is Dick Turnin, and I would certainly not mention him because one of his more famous exploits was to shoot one of his colleagues named Tom King.
Another reason why I believe that there is no justification for saying that the major problems which it is recognised exist in the American situation will be authomatically introduced here is referred to in an interesting article written by Professor Gould of Wayne University, a former lawyer for the U.A.W. He con-

eluded his appreciation of my right hon. Friend's Bill with this reference to the American law:
On balance, however, the Conservatives seem to have borrowed some of the system's stronger points. And in a country with a better reputation in its respect for law one would think that the Industrial Relations Bill will stand a chance of influencing behaviour of British labour and management.
In stating what I believe this Bill will do, I echo the statement of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State that this is no magic cure. In commending the Bill to the House, I join most loudly with him in commending it to the employers of this country because it is into their hands that it will go. Hon. Members opposite choose to see the worst in every situation. Everyone recognises that sensible employers have a very real, vested and practical interest in having good industrial relations.
It is the duty of the Government to ensure that there is a framework within which the employers have the best chance of achieving this. The broadcast in "24 Hours" in which Mr. Jack Jones took part has been mentioned. I was very struck by one thing he said. He said, "We will not have anything to do with this law. What we are going to do is to sort out our procedures with companies and management so that we do not have to use this law." If ever there was an endorsement for what I see as my right hon. Friend's intention in introducing this Bill it was exactly that I have no doubt that there will be no Member of this House more pleased than my right hon. Friend if the Bill's provisions for the courts never need to be used because the conduct of industrial relations is satisfactory.
A further benefit of the Bill—and it is one we must thank the Opposition for in part—

Mr. Heffer: Very generous of the hon. Member.

Mr. King: —is that its introduction and the debates upon it have drawn the attention of the people of this country to the problem of industrial relations. Hon. Members opposite have contributed to that in some of their more responsible contributions, leaving aside some of their more irresponsible behaviour. They have focussed attention on the problem of industrial relations. Those of us who have


worked in industry and hon. Members on both sides of the House who have union experience know that apathy is pretty hard to tackle and overcome. I was struck by a report which hon. Members may have seen this morning of a survey by Professor Hugh Clegg which was done in connection with the General and Municipal Workers Union.
A study was made of certain large branches, and it showed that an overwhelming proportion of the members of those branches had no idea who the general secretary of that union is, and secondly that an overwhelming number of members of those branches had no idea of what are the rules and procedures of the union. That sort of lack of knowledge among unionists can give no satisfaction to any hon. Member. I hope and believe that hon. Members on both sides will support and welcome what this Bill does to induce a real and practical and much greater interest among people on both sides of industry in the problems of industrial relations.
At all times througout our discussions of the Bill our attention has been drawn to the problems and difficulties and the so-called obstructions; but no attention has been drawn to what I believe are the very real oportunities which this Bill provides for unions. There is a book which hon. Members may have read, called "England, Their England" and there is in that an account of an American film producer who, as so many Americans do, had a slogan on his desk, and he, to show what a smart chap he was and how he was a chap who never missed an opportunity, had on his desk confronting his every visitor the slogan, "You get up early but I am up all night." That may not be a slogan which will commend itself on this day to hon. Members of this House, but, to my mind, if unions do get up early on this Bill and study the opportunities which it gives them they may well find that it can benefit their unions and their membership. I have discussed this with hon. Members opposite and they have admitted to me that there are certain aspects of this Bill which can do that. I have drawn my right hon. Friend's attention to certain aspects of the agency shop provisions, which are still a little vague, but which could provide opportunity for positive inducements to unions in increasing union member-

ship. I support what my right hon. Friend says, that it may well be found that an outcome of this Bill is a substantial increase in trade union membership.
The right hon. Lady the Member for Blackburn has made the point that unions will lose certain power, certain sanctions which they have of compulsion. This may not be, even from their point of view, an entirely bad thing, because it may be that they will achieve far greater results—quite apart from far better results, far greater results—by a voluntary system by which the unions will sell the benefits of union membership and not, as can so easily be the case, fall back on compulsion. Certain hon. Members, it is quite clear, have never entertained this concept and have not recognised the possibilities in this. I would ask them, does it not concern them, who espouse the cause of trade unionism and who themselves believe very strongly in its benefits, that trade unionism has not made greater progress in this country? It is a fact that trade unionism in traditional areas is static if not actually declining. This must be a matter of great concern to them and to many people.
I have been looking at the figures of membership of trade unions and I believe statisticians could established by a graph that there is a decline in the trade union membership in the areas and activities where one would normally expect it to be, and that is irrespective of any legislation. I believe that one of the reasons for this is the bad public image which trade unions have. Whether this image is fair or unfair, this is because of public belief that there is an element of compulsion, there is an element at times of intimidation, and an element of irresponsible use of power.
I believe that under this Bill, in which the rights of trade unions are quite clearly defined, as also are their opportunities, it will be possible for unions to operate more openly, more frankly, and this may well be the way in which they may establish a much more reputable standing in the community than that which they have enjoyed in many areas. I further believe that if they put this into operation in a palpably democratic way their image could be improved.
In recent incidents over the Bill the unions were less than frank in their dealings with their membership, certainly


over the second strike; there was a rather partial interpretation of rules in deciding whether there was or was not time for a ballot about the strike on 18th March. This must be a matter of great concern to hon. Members on both sides. I was particularly struck by an interview with a man from a plant in Wiltshire where members were refusing to go on strike. He felt very strongly that they had not been consulted. This was one incident which I saw—

Mr. Orme: It took a lot of finding out.

Mr. King: The hon. Member for Salford, West (Mr. Orme) may try to shout me down, but we know that there were many such incidents, and if he believes in trade unionism, as I know he does, and in responsible trade unionism, I think that he will be genuinely concerned about this incident, because he knows, as I know, that while there are responsible trade unionists there are also people who are always causing the problems, and I would have thought that this sort of incident would have been of concern to those who genuinely sympathise with the trade union movement and who have its interests at heart. There were a number of shop stewards supporting the men. One of the men, obviously a traditional shop steward, who obviously had very strongly supported the union he belonged to, not a chap with a chip on his shoulder, and who had worked with the union willingly said, "If this is trade unionism, then I do not want to know; I feel I and the lads have been let down."
Hon. Members opposite may say that that is a lot of nonsense and they can carry on in the same old way and trade union leaders can carry on in the same old way, but I would advise them to give some grave thought to this point.

Mr. Orme: The hon. Gentleman is making an attack upon members of my union. I know the programme to which he has referred. Perhaps he would care to refer to the 1½ million members of my union who responded to the call with enthusiasm. We recognise that there will never be 100 per cent. unanimity. Never mind about looking around Wiltshire, the hon. Gentleman should look at what happened in the rest of Britain on 18th March.

Mr. King: The country knows the answer to that intervention. Anyway, I did not have to go looking for that example. It appeared on television. I do not think that it was a programme that the hon. Member could have seen. It was "Points West", which is a West Country programme; but the hon. Gentleman can check the details. The hon. Gentleman can shoot this point down or ignore it; he is entitled to his opinion, but this warning should be uttered.
The problem, not just of democratic representation, but one which is exemplified in the Bill and which I hope that my right hon. Friend's code of practice will further bring out, is the need for communication. If the union were within its rights, and if the leadership were taking the right action, it certainly did not convince a considerable number of its members, and there was a failure of communication.
I hope that communication, which is the first principle of management, will be an area which my right hon. Friend will ensure is carefully considered. This Bill, like any other Bill, is complicated, but its basic provisions can be explained. I trust that the Government will do all they can to ensure that the Bill is explained in simple language to people working in industry. Communication is a difficult problem. I worked in a company which in 80 years grew from 300 employees to over 25,000. The problems and the techniques of communication change and are very difficult. Many different techniques are employed. In all aspects of industrial relations, good communications at all levels are invaluable.
I have had to issue to fathers of chapels copies of agreements that the union has made with me because the union men could not obtain copies from their own branches. There are problems of communication on the management side, too. This is a problem fundamental to the improvement of industrial relations. Failure in this respect is a far bigger element in stoppages than is appreciated.
Finally, I echo what my right hon. Friend said. This is a genuine attempt to strike a fair balance between what it is recognised must be competing forces and competing power structures in our modern industrial society. It would be


foolhardy to even begin to introduce into this area a Measure which was obviously prejudiced. It is essential that any new Measures of this kind must be recognised in the final analysis when they are fully understood, fully explained and properly communicated, to offer fair and reasonable opportunities and responsibilities to both sides of industry. It is because I believe that my right hon. Friend has achieved this balance that I commend the Bill to the House.

5.45 p.m.

Mr. Charles Loughlin: I hope to speak briefly, acceding to Mr. Speaker's request, so that other Members can speak.
The hon. Member for Bridgwater (Mr. Tom King) has again evidenced by word and by emphasis an anti-trade unionism that it would be very difficult to find elsewhere. He talked about our need to sell the benefits of unionism on a voluntary basis. We have been doing that for years. I began doing so when I was 18 and I have never ceased doing so, I am only one of hundreds of thousands of people in the trade union movement who are doing precisely that.
The Secretary of State has on occasions charged this side of the House with distorting the purpose, intent and provisions of the Bill. This afternoon the right hon. Gentleman told us how wonderful the Bill was and said that union members will by this Measure be protected as they have never been protected before. The right hon. Gentleman should tell the T.U.C. that. The Government assert that the Bill is solely for the benefit and protection of the trade union movement, or that a consequence of the Bill will be that trade unions will be protected to a greater degree than ever before, yet the whole organised trade union movement—not the militants, not the Left-wingers, but the whole of the T.U.C., including every moderate trade union leader—has rejected the Bill out of hand and said that it is not prepared even to co-operate in its implementation.
The Secretary of State has made many statements about the Bill. This afternoon he got into somewhat of an argument with this side about whether people would go to prison under the Bill. On

Second Reading and in some of the earlier debates in Committee, when we suggested that in consequence of certain Clauses it would be possible for trade unionists to go to gaol, the Secretary of State swore almost that it was not possible under the Bill for anyone to go to gaol.

The Under-Secretary of State for Employment (Mr. Dudley Smith): My right hon. Friend has never made any secret of the fact, right from the outset of these discussions, that any person who is sufficiently determined to go to prison can go to prison, but he spelled out very conclusively today the fact that contempt of court in any sphere of activity, quite apart from trade unionism, can earn that ultimate penalty in rare cases.

Mr. Loughlin: The hon. Gentleman should read some of the speeches the Secretary of State has made and some of the replies I have received when at earlier stages I have alleged that the Bill will do this to trade unionists. We reject the Bill. When I say, "we", I am talking not only about my right hon. and hon. Friends but about the whole of the trade union movement.

Mr. David Mitchell: rose—

Mr. Loughlin: It is in fact—

Mr. Mitchell: Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

Mr. Loughlin: No. It is in fact an attack on the trade union movement. It is alleged to be a contribution to industrial relations. I gather that an hon. Member asks where some of my hon. Friends were last night. The hon. Member for Bridgwater (Mr. Tom King) made a point about that. I thought that it was so infantile that I would not refer to it. I say that for one good reason. There is not a single, honest Member in this House who does not know what went on last night. We were deliberately allowing certain hon. Members to go home, and we did it on a rota basis. Everybody knows that. This is a disciplined party. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] Of course it is. I cannot understand the hypocrisy of right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite. When we were in Government they did precisely the same.

Mr. Hamling: Will my hon. Friend give way?

Mr. Loughlin: Not for the moment, thank you. Hon. Gentlemen opposite kept sufficient of their troops here to see that we had to keep almost the whole of our troops here. It is a legitimate Opposition tactic to save their own troops at the expense of the Government. Every honest hon. Member knows it.
We reject the Bill because it is an attack on the trade union movement. It will not make a single contribution to industrial relations in this country. I thought that the hon. Member for Bridgwater nearly got to the point of the problem in British industry at the end of his speech. The problem in British industry is possibly the failure of communications between both sides of industry all along the line of command. In particular—I put this forward as my point of view—I think that there is a failure in British industry to appreciate the required qualities of its lower ranks of supervision. This is one of the keys to the improvement of industrial relations.
If we had set up seminars throughout British industry to talk to management and to the trade union side on the best ways of creating the leadership qualities in the supervisory grades at the lower levels, we should have made a greater contribution to future industrial relations than the Bill will ever make.
The Bill is an attack on the trade unions. It will not make the slightest contribution to industrial relations. It is so obtuse in every possible way that men and women in industry will have to spend more time thinking in terms of what the Bill is about than about the jobs which they are doing. I am talking about shop stewards and union officials. The Bill will impose an onerous burden on the central officers of every trade union because they will be charged with the responsibility for thousands of their officials—branch secretaries, branch chairmen and almost all committee members. The central office officials will be charged with the responsibility for all officials of the union, irrespective of the geographical area in which they live. If any one of them makes a mistake, the union funds will be at risk. If that is not an attack on the trade unions, I should like to know what it is.
My right hon. Friend the Member for Blackburn (Mrs. Castle), towards the end of her speech, said that the Bill was

a cornerstone in the economic policy of the Government. I, too, believe that it is a cornerstone in the economic policy of the Government. What we are seeing today in Britain is a return to the type of economics which we had in the mid-1930s in which some would stand on their own feet and the rest would crawl on their knees.
There will be about one million unemployed by the end of the year. There has been attack upon attack on the standards of living of our people in the nine months that the Tory Party has been in power. It is essential for them in those circumstances to shackle the trade union movement to ensure that it cannot conduct the struggle for improvements in the conditions of the people that it represents. I reject the Bill, equally as I reject the Government.

5.55 p.m.

Mr. Robert Adley: I hope that the hon. Member for Gloucestershire, West (Mr. Loughlin) will not mind if I do not comment in detail on his argument in my brief intervention although I shall quote one case from one of my Gloucestershire constituents.
The two particular points in the Bill which I find attractive concern the rights given to individuals. I should like to mention two cases, which have been brought to my attention by constituents, where hardship has been created which, when the Bill becomes law, will not be tolerated. I take, first, the "unfair dismissal" part of the Bill, particularly Clauses 20 and 22(1)(a). It seems significant that the Opposition have chosen not to mention this part of the Bill which provides the working man with a greater degree of protection against unfair dismissal than has been available to him before.
This case concerns a man of 63 years of age, for whom I have been seeking help, who has been dismissed without prior warning after working 11 years for a particular company. Under Clause 22(1)(a) I am convinced that he would never have been dismissed had the Bill already been law.
The second point concerns the "rights of workers". I refer here to Clause 5(1)(a). A constituent of mine, who has


for many years been a member of the Transport and General Workers' Union, sought to leave that union and join another organisation, N.A.F.T.O., because of the changed circumstances of his employment. When he sought to change his union he received a letter from the T.G.W.U., and the words which caused him great
unhappiness were:
and therefore as you are already a member of our organisation, I must refuse to accept your resignation or to allow you to join another organisation.
I do not consider that a matter of which the T.G.W.U. can be particularly proud. I am glad that under the terms of the Bill this restriction on the freedom of my constituent will be outlawed, and the quoted case is in the process, I hope, of being withdrawn by the union.

Mr. Kevin McNamara: Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

Mr. Adley: No. I am making a brief intervention and I am about to finish.
There are some significant points in the Bill which will give great freedom to and remove great mental hardship from many people. I support the Bill.

5.59 p.m.

Mr. William Hamilton: I have not taken part in these debates before, partly because I just could not understand the Bill. Nor can one debate this Bill, because it is completely different from the Bill which was first published. That may have been my hon. Friend's point in suggesting that the Minister himself could not debate the Bill, because it was not available. The Government took advantage of the guillotine procedure to produce a completely different, second version of the Bill. They went so far as to prevent any debate on any Opposition Amendment on Report, and many of their own were withdrawn for tactical reasons during last night's sitting.
So we do not know what the eventual Bill will be. But even if we assume that the main principles were embodied in the original version, I find it an incomprehensible legal jungle, a veritable paradise for the legal profession, who will undoubtedly wax fat, until the Act is hacked from the Statute Book by a future Government. This is our main point against the Bill.
I agree with the hon. Member for Bristol, North-East (Mr. Adley). We have never denied that there are some desirable facets in the Bill, and safeguards against unreasonable dismissal are one such. I had the same kind of case to which the hon. Member referred, but there is no need to wrap that up in so much legal jargon. In human relations, the less one invokes the law the better. To the extent that one invokes the law and seeks to wrap it up in a Bill as complex as this, to that extent human relations are made more inflexible.

Mr. Adley: Is not the point simply this: it appears that my constituent has been dismissed unfairly, and when the Bill is law, this could not happen?

Mr. Hamilton: The hon. Member is presuming a little too much, but I will leave my hon. Friends who have been actively engaged in the Committee stage of the Bill to deal with that.

Mr. Orme: In fact, under the unfair dismissal Clause, there is no right of reinstatement. It is an extremely watered down provision, and highly unsatisfactory.

Mr. Hamilton: I was about to say that it is good as far as it goes, but my hon. Friend's point makes me condition my answer to the hon. Member, that it is not enough to say that he has an appeal against dismissal—

Mr. Adley: That is a good deal.

Mr. Hamilton: I doubt whether it is. It is not much satisfaction to him to know that he has been unsatisfactorily dismissed if he cannot at the same time claim his right to be reinstated. The one must follow the other if there is to be any advantage.
But I agree that there are some good parts in the Bill. That is why my right hon. Friend the Member for Sowerby (Mr. Houghton) stated official Labour Party policy on Second Reading. He qualified the statement made in the first place by my hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, Walton (Mr. Heffer). There is no doubt that this party reserves and must reserve the right to appeal such parts of this legislation as we feel damage the trade union movement and make no contribution to the solution of industrial relations problems.

Mr. Heffer: Let me make it absolutely clear that there was no qualification and no contradiction between what I said on the first day of the Second Reading and what my right hon. Friend the Member for Sowerby (Mr. Houghton) said on the second day—that this legislation will be repealed.

Mr. Hamilton: I will not incite a quarrel between my colleagues. We have enough hon. Members on the other side to fight with without fighting among ourselves.
My right hon. Friend the Member for Blackburn (Mrs. Castle) made a point which concerns all the trade unionists to whom I have spoken in my constituency. That is, that Clauses 5 and 6, I believe, provide for what has been referred to, probably exaggeratedly, as literally a charter for blacklegs and non-unionists. In so far as there is a consistent philosophy enshrined in the Bill, it seems to fly in the face of the basic concept and principle of the Donovan Commission, as enunciated in paragraph 80, where the Commission made it clear—we would agree on this side—that there is room for improvement in industrial relations and procedures, but
…without destroying the British tradition of keeping industrial relations out of the courts.
When the Government continually and continuously go out of their way to say that this Bill is based on Donovan. they are speaking contrary to the facts. When the Minister chastises the unions for exaggerated claims and for giving out distorted versions of the Bill, he should be sure that he is innocent of those charges himself. The Bill flies in the face of the summaries produced by Donovan for the solution of this problem.
I thought that the Tory Party was rather strong on tradition. To put it as kindly as I can, they want to preserve and improve existing institutions—

Mr. Hamling: Only their own.

Mr. Hamilton: But they will not do so in this case. They will destroy or will play a large part in destroying the existing institutions and procedures by this Bill.
My right hon. Friend the Member for Blackburn and the previous Labour Government wanted to legislate in this field.

There is probably a case for legislation. The unions have never sought to operate outwith the law. They have operated within the law for a century and more, but the law must be a lubricant to the voluntary principle in industrial relations and not an irritant. We should not shovel a cartload of sand into the works, which is what the Bill, I fear, will do.
The hon. Member for Bristol, North-East made the specious claim that one of the advantages of the Bill was the safeguarding of the rights of the individual. I suppose that he would make that claim for Clauses 5 and 6, on the right not to be a member of a union. One of the spokesmen on the television programme last night made it clear that this is the very antithesis of collective bargaining. It weakens the union movement—quite the opposite of what the Government are claiming.
For the first time in British industrial legislation, we are enshrining in the law a charter for the rights of a blackleg and a non-unionist. In the Government's attempt to deal with unofficial strikes, the Bill seeks to retain the yardsticks as to what are unfair industrial practices and what are breaches of contract. We have had selective quotations today about the Post Offices workers and the A.E.F., with the assertion that, if there had been democratic procedures, and a ballot by these workers, they would not have struck.
We never had that kind of argument when the doctors refused to sign sickness certificates. They were in breach of contract and they never had a ballot. There was never any criticism of the doctors and we have never heard any from that side of the House. They cite Post Office workers and engineers, but not doctors. When I asked the Minister to deduct from doctors' salaries certain moneys because they were in breach of contract, he refused to do so.
Once one tries to define in law things like unfair industrial practices and breaches of contract, the lawyers step in and wax fat. There is an infinite variety of gradations in such practices and breaches, and these matters will have to be decided by lawyers, who have a vested interest in time in the law courts. Time is money to them. Once they start arguing about these things, all sorts of difficulties will arise.
Clause 34(2) says that
it shall be an unfair industrial practice for any party to the agreement not to take all such steps as are reasonably practicable.
What on earth does that mean? How many hours of paid argument will the lawyers need to define the indefinable? This is why Donovan said in paragraph 454 of its Report that legal jargon like this should not be included in any Measure. It is likely to increase bloody-mindedness on the shop floor, which is what the Government are claiming the Bill will reduce.
Not only are the Government seeking to place this straitjacket on the unions, but they bolster up their threats to strikers, and unofficial strikers in particular, with threats about freedom of speech and the written word. I was not aware of this until I listened to the debates on Clause 85, in which the Solicitor-General confirmed my worst fears.
I feel strongly about companies producing arms for South Africa. Occasionally I write in a Sunday newspaper, and if I continue to try to persuade workers to strike against firms which manufacture arms which are to be sent to South Africa, I will be liable under Clause 85. This is a damnable intrusion on my freedom to write and say what I wish about the immorality of sending arms to the regime in South Africa. This intrusion is being made by a party which is supposed to believe in the freedom of the individual to write and to say what he pleases. This is an absurd and obscene provision.
The same can be said in this connection about politics. If I go outside the House and campaign for industrial action on behalf of the nurses—I have campaigned on their behalf for many years, both inside and outside the House, because I regard them as one of the most exploited sections of the community—I must not say, "Why the hell don't you strike or get some other unions to strike in sympathy with you?" because I would be liable under Clause 85.

Mr. Adam Butler: Would the hon. Gentleman describe the circumstances in which he might be persuading nurses to strike?

Mr. Hamilton: The nurses would not strike. In my example I would be trying

to incite other trade unions to strike in sympathy with them, and that would be illegal under the Bill. I see no reason why I should not have the right to focus attention on the exploitation of nurses. They would not strike, but the doctors threatened to do so. They are both in the same National Health Service, but the doctors got the cash. There is much injustice and unfairness about the Bill.
Wild exaggerations have been made on both sides about the Bill. I concede that the Measure has some good parts which we would want and which would be in legislation passed by a Labour Government—[Interruption]—but, on balance, the Bill will create far more friction than it seeks to remove and far more industrial strife than we have had hitherto. Hon. Gentlemen opposite need not accept my word for that. Some of the most reasonable trade unionists are saying precisely this.
I have fought Communists all my life. My principal opponent at most of the General Elections I have fought since 1945 in West Fife has been a Communist, so I know what militancy is in trade unions and politics. Nobody need accuse me of being even Left wing. Nevertheless, all the most reasonable trade unionists I know are unanimous in fearing the Bill and its consequences.
I beg the Government to use the other Chamber—I confess that the House of Lords has a sudden attraction for me; it has a great part to play in this matter —because large sections of the Bill have gone completely undiscussed by this House as a result of the disreputable guillotine procedure which the Government have introduced.
All parties—including mine, unfortunately—have said that one of the principal responsibilities of the other place is to give the Government a chance for second thoughts and to improve proposed legislation. The Government now have the chance to use the second Chamber. I hope they will use it—to kill the Bill.

6.18 p.m.

Mr. Ray Mawby: I thought that the hon. Member for Fife, West (Mr. William Hamilton) made his most telling point when he spoke about the right of free speech and the need to allow people to comment on matters


of the day and feel completely free to do so. This right must, of course, be reciprocal. It cannot be bestowed on one section of the community and deliberately denied to another.
I was glad that the hon. Gentleman raised this point because it is the one issue on which I shall concentrate, as I wish to be brief. Throughout these proceedings much has been said about the democratic procedures already operating in trade unions. Hon. Gentlemen opposite have claimed that because of this, we do not need a Registrar of trade unions. Indeed, a number of unions have said that they agree with that view and will not even register.
Why do we insist on having such a Registrar when there is no evidence, it is said, that members of unions have been ill used by their fellow trade unionists? To put the record straight, I will show why we need a Registrar and, in demonstrating this, I will quote a particular case. I have the correspondence here, and I will deal with it as briefly as I can. It is between the then general secretary of a trade union and one of its members.
The first letter was from the general secretary. It was dated 18th July, 1956, and headed "Cyprus Emergency Fund". It starts:
Dear Sir and Brother
—That is a very good start, but the letter goes on to draw the attention of the member to a report which had appeared in the Daily Mail of 25th May, 1956. The general secretary of the union made the following direct quotation from the article as it appeared in the Daily Mail:
The British boys in Cyprus are keeping their heads in the belief that the terrorists will get their just reward in the courts. This action of sending money to the other side is bound to lower morale and may do great harm. Thousands of our union colleagues have loved ones in Cyprus—and now their money is being used to shoot them in the back.
The letter then goes on:
From inquiries that have been made I am led to believe that it is possible that the person referred to in the report is your goodself. In view of the fact that the disclosure of the business of the Union to any outside source is a breach of the Rules of the Union, it will be necessary to refer the facts to the Executive Council for their attention.

The member's comment on a matter of public knowledge had appeared in that newspaper, and he received this letter from the general secretary of the union—[HON. MEMBERS: "Which union?"] The union was the E.T.U. The sting is in the tail of the letter:
I wish to make it quite clear that in giving consideration to any further action they may require to take in accordance with the provisions of the Rules, the Executive Council will be bound to take into account any statement you may submit to this office.

Mr. James Hamilton: The hon. Gentleman has cited this so-called irregularity in a trade union. Who was the general secretary of the union at that time?

Mr. Mawby: The general secretary at that time was Frank Haxell.
This brings us back again to the voluntary procedure which the T.U.C. says it can operate. How did the E.T.U. get rid of the Communist control? That was not done by the T.U.C. doing anything. Two members of the union went to a court—they used those nasty lawyers referred to by the hon. Member for Fife, West. The court found in their favour, and that was the beginning of the end of that union administration.
The important thing is that here we have a situation in which a union member is told, "You may be charged with committing an offence, but you will be entitled only to a written defence". There was no nonsense about the member having a right to be present to hear the charge and the evidence submitted, and certainly no rubbish like the right to examine witnesses, or even an assurance that his written defence was taken into account.
The member stated in his written defence:
Further, as I have received no information from Branch or Head Office since June, 1955 on this or any other matter, it is difficult to visualise how I could disclose it in breach of Rules.
That suggests that the member was commenting on a matter of public knowledge and was not improperly divulging any of the union's business. In other words, he was using that freedom of speech about which the hon. Member for Fife, West talked.

Mr. John Mendelson: But does not the hon. Member see that we


are objecting to his quoting this example from 1956 because he knows very well that the situation in that one union was wholly unrepresentative of the British trade union movement. It is just as unfair for him to quote that as being typical of the trade union movement as it would be for us to quote the case of Capt. Ramsey as a measure of the patriotism of Conservatives.

Mr. Mawby: The hon. Member must now be prepared to say that he knows of no trade union at this moment that does not have—

Mr. Orme: Smear.

Mr. Mawby: I am talking about this particular union. I know that hon. Members do not like it, but when they referred to this point—

Mr. McNamara: I, too, remember the hon. Member making an allegation here about the trade union, about people being threatened, about violence and all sorts of things. I said to him, "Tell us where it is," and he then told us. Then I asked him had any action been taken by the police, or had there been any conviction, or was it just another of those things that went on, and the hon. Gentleman was not able to tell me.

Mr. Mawby: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman, because I said at that time that I did not have the facts with me. Two days after I made my statement in the House the Western Morning News made an investigation. It quoted a police spokesman who, asked why there had been no prosecutions, said that a number of cases—

Mr. Paul B. Rose: Be careful.

Mr. Mawby: I am being careful. I hold myself responsible for anything I say, and I am stating a fact. The police spokesman said that a number of cases had been sent to the Director of Public Prosecutions and that one prosecution had succeeded. Perhaps we can now clear that matter out of the way.

Mr. David Stoddart: The case quoted by the hon. Gentleman took place at a certain time in the history of the Electrical Trades Union, as it then was. Would he not agree that subsequent happenings in the normal courts,

without this Bill, showed that the union leadership at that time and, in particular, the general secretary, were corrupt and completely unrepresentative? They were displaced by the members of the union themselves through their other leaders in the normal way, by using the trade union rules and the courts—and without this Bill.

Mr. Mawby: As I said before, when the allegations were made of the fiddling of the ballot it was not put right by the T.U.C., and yet we are told that we do not need the Bill because the T.U.C. can operate all these things. It was brought about by two members risking £70,000 in costs, which was what happened at the end of the day—£70,000 in costs. Those members risked that sort of figure for costs to go to the High Court, which most hon. Gentlemen opposite obviously do not like because they do not like lawyers and dealing with courts. Yet those members went before that court and the court found for them. Can the hon. Gentleman, or any other hon. Gentleman, stand with his hand on his heart and say that there are no rules in any unions which can still take away the right of the individual member? I quote a valid case in which this member was tried in his absence, and then he was finally told the decision of the executive committee.

Mr. Ronald King Murray: On a point of order. The hon. Gentleman has read his letter twice. Are we in the process of having a Third Reading of the Bill or are we to have a third reading of the hon. Gentleman's letter?

Mr. Speaker: That is not strictly a point of order. The hon. Member who is speaking has been somewhat provoked. I, too, have been studying my Henry V: "Men of few words are the best men". —and I would add, whether standing or sitting.

Mr. Mawby: I apologise, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Orme: That is very nice of the hon. Gentleman.

Mr. Mawby: I intended to speak briefly. There has been a certain amount of provocation and that can be my only excuse for going off the rails a little.
The Registrar will be able to make certain that this type of anti-social proceedings would not happen or would not be as likely to happen in the future. But, on the other hand, there is nothing in the Bill which institutes fines on employees. If someone goes to the local bench and feels that the magistrate has treated him badly, he will probably go away saying that he does not like that particular magistrate, but he does not normally throw an inkwell at the magistrate and so put himself in contempt of court. In the same way, the average man will not commit this sort of contempt of court.
Unless it is an association of free men, a trade union is nothing and is a great disgrace to the original founders. The Bill will help us back on our way to industrial sanity.

6.35 p.m.

Mr. Hugh Jenkins: In introducing the Third Reading of the Bill—if I may return to the subject—the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State said of this rather tattered collection of altered remnants of legal jargon which is now posing as a Bill, that it was a Bill which introduced in this country the sort of thing which was common in other countries. This has been a theme of the Government all along. The right hon. Gentleman said they are seeking to introduce here the type of law which exists elsewhere. But this was exposed some
time ago by Professor Clegg, who said:
The Industrial Relations Bill proposes to transform British industrial relations from the world's least-regulated system into the most-regulated to be found among all the democracies. It intends the new Industrial Court to have quite extraordinary powers, alien both to British traditions and to foreign judicial systems.
Those remarks were published in the Observer on the 17th January, on the first publication of the Bill. It is no wonder that Professor Clegg was fired. Quite clearly that was the reason. He exposed the true nature of the Bill right from the beginning.
It is not true that what is happening is the introduction on to the British scene of things which are common elsewhere. The transformation which the Bill
seeks to make will force our industrial relations to fit into a handcuff system tighter than

anything else in the free world. Whether it will succeed is another question
which we shall discover only in practice. But there is at least a sufficient chance that it will succeed for us to be rather frightened about the Bill. There is a sufficient chance, even if it did not succeed, that the industrial strife which would be brought about in preventing it from succeeding would be so serious as to have a very deleterious effect upon our whole social and economic life. Therefore, we have a Bill which deserves very serious treatment. We on this side of the House have tried to give it that treatment from the beginning.
In many ways, this is perhaps the most extraordinary Bill that has ever been placed before Parliament. It is drafted out of theory, and mostly out of legal theory, by men without any practical experience of the trade union movement, against most of the expert advice from Donovan and elsewhere, and it seems likely, at almost every point, to achieve the exact opposite of what it sets out to attain.
As the right hon. Gentleman said, in the world league table of time lost through industrial disputes Britain has hitherto held a low position. That is a fact which I was interested to hear said. We have not heard much of that sort of talk from the other side of the House until now. At this stage, they tell us that we are a country where relatively little time is lost in strikes. What is the need for all this legislation if we are a low time-lost country?
We have held a low position compared with the United States and others in this league. But with the importation of the American system, we shall get American results. The system provides the results. There will be fewer declared disputes but 10 times the amount of time lost. The consequence of this system is that one reduces the number of disputes, but when one has a dispute it is a big one and loses a great deal of time. That is the consequence of introducing the American system.
I agree that unofficial strikes are inconvenient, but if we have to choose—and unless we have perfect managements and saintly workers, we have to choose—then surely short strikes, with easy ventilation of grievances and easy rectification in


most cases of grievances and little time lost, are surely better than long strikes, which are what the Government have chosen. Apparently the Government have chosen long strikes, fewer in number but with much more time lost, and they judge that that is better than the inconvenience and technical and economic dislocation resultant in a series of small strikes.
They are entirely wrong. On all the evidence before the House, that choice is incredibly foolish and damaging to the country and everyone in it. The Bill should be given a new short title:
A Bill to weaken trade unions and to increase the amount of time lost in industrial disputes.
That new short title correctly describes the consequences of this Measure.
It might be said that in Germany, which also has a stronger legal framework, even less time is lost than under our system. That is true. The Germans are traditionally a law-abiding race. They carry out orders without the arguments that we have. Six million Jews are dead to prove that. However, lack of democracy in the trade union movement of the Federal German Republic is balanced by greater democracy in industry. By this Bill, the Government are trying to destroy trade union democracy without conceding industrial democracy. A Bill which purports to extend freedom is destructive of liberty. A Bill to reduce strikes will increase them, and a Bill to increase democracy will reduce it. As a result of it, I believe that we shall move into an unprecedented period of industrial uproar in which workers will be forced to fight for the maintenance of traditional liberties instead of getting on with their jobs. For that reason, another consequence of the Bill will be a serious fall in production.
In order to deal with unions which have many unofficial strikes, to give the Government their case at its best, they have introduced legislation which, among other things, will cripple a union which has no unofficial strikes. I refer, of course, to Equity. It is widely believed that the Government have made concessions which will enable Equity to maintain its union shop. That is widely believed by hon. Members opposite and even by some on this side of the House.
Certainly it is believed by the Press. However, it is quite untrue. The Government have done no such thing. Although the Government know that Equity cannot function with the pretended concessions that they have made, they cannot make any significant concessions without provoking a revolt on the benches behind them. The Government cannot allow this union to operate in a manner in which it can carry out its job without upsetting hon. Members behind them and without allowing other unions in the same situation the freedom to which Equity has a right.
The entertainment business probably produces a greater net plus balance of trade surplus per man-hour than any other in the country. Its survival depends upon two planks. The first is the union's ability to keep out the lay-abouts, scroungers and star-struck kids who will descend upon the business. Once we remove the protections that Equity at presents holds out against free entry into the business, that is the inevitable result. Once we remove the element of pre-entry closed shop which exists and against which the Government set their faces, and once the union is prevented from regulating entry into the business, that is what will happen.
The president of Equity has said that the association is gradually moving away from free entry into a situation in which a qualification of experience is demanded and, in various areas, work may be offered only to existing members. Free entry was the cause of wholesale unemployment in the industry. Its reintroduction in present circumstances, with short-term employment, with advertising spots on television running for only a few seconds, and with the cassette revolution round the corner, will cause such chaos that Equity will be bound to take whatever action is open to the union, at whatever cost, to prevent what the Bill seeks to permit.
The second plank upon which the entertainment business rests is Equity's ability to enforce national agreements upon recalcitrant and bogus employers. The business used to be full of such employers. Gradually they were eliminated by the power of Equity to say, "Use the national contract and pay the minimum conditions, or there will be no show.",


and to say to the unemployed actor who might be tempted to take such a job, "If you walk on that stage, you will never walk on another". That was not an agreed closed shop or an agency agreement with the employer. It was a matter of the union exercising its rightful power upon recalcitrant employers.
Contrary to popular belief, the entertainment business is a hard and desperate one. Only upon such firm and unequivocal foundations has it been possible to build the structure in which the higher arts of the theatre can flourish in our country. The new Clauses provide that Equity can have a closed shop —and so can the National Union of Seamen—where the employer agrees. But that is not where the union needs it. It needs it where the employer does not agree. It is for that reason that I say, "Thank you for nothing". The Bill provides that substantial employers shall conform and that delinquent employers can get away with it. A closed shop cannot be enforced without the agreement of the employer in circumstances where it is impossible to obtain it. Once again, I say, "Thank you for nothing".
The Government are about to destroy the Theatre Councils which were built by their Tory predecessors. They have revealed themselves as the enemy of all who receive wages and salaries. Backed by an irresponsible and ill-informed Press. the Tories have conned the nation into giving them the power to commit this mischief.
I do not believe that they will get away with it, but, in the process of defeating them great damage will be done, not merely to institutions like the Theatre Councils but to the very social cohesion of the nation. Very well. But the Government cannot say that they have not been warned. We must still try to stop them in another place, where there will be further opportunities to return to the struggle to improve this Measure. It will then return to this House where, although we shall not then be able to eliminate the Bill, we shall try yet again to make it less harmful and less dangerous.

6.48 p.m.

Mr. David Madel: After long hours of debate in

Committee and on Report, our different attitudes have been made clear. What has not been made clear is the attitude of many managements in British industry both to the content of the Bill and to the likely timetable of their operating it once it becomes law.
These managements are wise to stay their hand. They probably recognise that there has been so much Press coverage on the obligations and rights of trade unions that, without the benefit of the publication of the code of good industrial practice, managements feel that their obligations under the Bill have not yet been fully appreciated.
Managements must recognise that defective procedure agreements which are in need
of remedial action are the pivotal point in improving industrial relations. Both sides of industry will make full use of Clauses 35 to 40 because the Industrial Court can provide them with helpful guidelines as a means of improving procedure agreements. Companies now realise that lasting industrial peace cannot be achieved unless the procedures for dealing quickly and fairly with disputes are vastly improved. I am certain that these Clauses will nudge managements on whom the ultimate responsibility lies to improve procedure agreements.
We are right to assume that it will be some time before those Clauses will operate to make agreements legally binding and that this will become the rule rather than the exception. This initial reluctance by both sides of industry is occasioned by the fact that neither side is as yet sufficiently confident of its ability to undertake all the obligations of a legally binding contract, and does not wish, at this stage, to risk legal proceedings, with the consequent souring of industrial relations.
Both in Committee and later comparisons have been made with the legally binding contracts which operate in the United States. Many American unions are willing to make agreements which are legally binding because, from the much higher contributions that their members pay, the unions are able to enter pay negotiations with highly trained economists and lawyers in whom the members of the trade unions place great confidence to secure the best terms, which are able


to be understood by everyone, on a legal basis.
This is something which everyone agrees contributes to the creation of better teams of negotiators, which British trade unions should emulate. Equally, if we are to get these Clauses on legally binding contracts working, employers must emulate American employers in providing far better facilities for trade union officials and accelerating training and the enlargement of personnel teams to adjust to modern industrial conditions.
Clauses which deal with the disclosure of information to employees, the right of an employee not to be unfairly dismissed, and the recognition of trade unions go a considerable way to meet trade union objections to previous industrial practices. In a previous debate an hon. Member referred to the Bill as being mainly concerned with the balance of bargaining power in industry. If this country is to enjoy the benefits of the Bill, it must first produce many more managers who are social engineers of the highest quality, and therefore as the Bill begins to make itself felt in industry we must make sure that the country understands and gets increased management education.

6.54 p.m.

Mr. John Pardoe: I do not intend to deny my difficulty in deciding my attitude to the Bill as a whole. There are undoubtedly parts which any reasonable man will accept, but any man who tries to base his judgment of the Bill as a whole on the rational free play of common sense will be in difficulties.
I recognise, first, the importance of good industrial relations. I recognise that trade unions are, and must remain, within the law. I recognise the Government's right to devise a legal framework in which industrial relations can play their part. I recognise the need for reform. I also recognise, as some hon. Members on this side of the House seem not to recognise, that the Government ought to be interventionist in these matters. I was particularly glad to see that according to this morning's Guardian restrictive practices and monopolies legislation will be toughened up.
A further difficulty in deciding exactly where I stand on the Bill is the difficulty of distinguishing between the Bill that

we find in some of the speeches of the Secretary of State—and because I believe him to be an honest man I believe that that is the Bill in his mind—and the Bill as it appears on paper. They are not the same thing. The speech which the Minister made this afternoon might have persuaded us to say, "If that is all there is, what is so wrong?", but when we read the details and realise the extent of the Bill's provisions, we have our doubts.
The Minister said that this was the first comprehensive industrial relations Bill in our history. It is, but it is a tragedy of lost opportunities. I want to consider the Bill briefly under its three possible headings—its philosophical objections, its practical objections and its procedural objections. Clashes have occurred between some of my Liberal colleagues and other hon. Members on both sides of the House. I ask hon. Members to recognise that there are deep philosophical differences in considering industrial matters of this sort, as the speech made on 27th January by the hon. Member for Birmingham, All Saints (Mr. Brian Walden) clearly showed. He showed the differences between the collectivist and the individualist approach—the contrast between the group and the individual.
I take the view that there are great dangers in giving loyalty to a group—contrary to what the hon. Member said. I believe that there is a danger of creating a mindless obedience to the rules of the group, and that that philosophy has a more fit place in the sermons of a public school chaplain than in the speeches of a tribute of the people.
The right hon. Gentleman said that under the Bill every man and woman would be free not to become a member of a trade union. The right hon. Member for Blackburn (Mrs. Castle) has said over and over again that she objects to that provision. I recognise that because of their history and because of the development of the trade union movement and their close connection with it, many hon. Members on this side of the House will agree with the right hon. Lady's view on that question.
I do not share that view. I believe that a fundamental liberty is at stake. But even if I believe that people ought to be members of a trade union—and I


do; I am a believer in 100 per cent. trade unionism—and if I also believe that the person who does not want to become a member of a trade union may, in the majority of cases, be nothing but a crank, nevertheless I believe that he has the right to be a crank, and that the Government are right to introduce that principle.

Mr. Dan Jones: Surely the hon. Member must recognise that these so-called cranks never fail to take advantage of the benefits obtained by the trade unions.

Mr. Pardoe: Indeed—and that is the great difficulty. Liberty must be paid for, and perhaps that is the price that we occasionally have to pay for an essential liberty.
I am equally opposed to the Conservative attitude in almost every Clause—the attitude of toying with the corporate State. They have conceived the Bill in terms of the relationship between the trade unions on the one side and the employers' federations on the other, and most of the essential Clauses are conceived in those terms. I do not believe that those are terms on which we can solve our industrial problems.
In industrial relations Liberals are not offering a pale imitation of anything; there are more things in the Liberal heaven and earth than are dreamed of in the philosophies of either of the other parties.

Mr. Gower: I am not saying that the hon. Member necessarily agrees with his hon. and learned Friend the Member for Montgomery (Mr. Hooson), who has made some excellent speeches and many interventions in these debates on nearly all these issues. The hon. Member will be aware, however, that his hon. and learned Friend, while expressing the kind of views that he himself has expressed, has generally come down in favour of the Bill. I wondered whether the hon. Member agreed with his hon. and learned Friend to that extent.

Mr. Pardoe: My hon. and learned Friend has also made clear those points on which he parts company with the Government and the Bill—and a very formidable parting of company it is. Even

by my reckoning there are things in the Bill that are acceptable and positively welcomed—more things than are welcome to members of the Labour Party. Nevertheless, I am now making reservations. The Liberal philosophy on industrial relations would be opposed equally by both the other parties—by the Conservatives because they would recognise it as post-capitalist, and an attack on capitalism, and by the Labour Party because they would recognise it as an extension of democracy and, therefore, an essential weakening of trade union structure at the centre. They would oppose any Liberal Bill for those reasons. The opposition would come equally from both parties.
I want to turn to the practical considerations mentioned by the Minister and to set aside the question of philosophical attitudes. I ask, "Will the gill work?" Presumably the Bill's main purpose is to reduce the number of strikes. I query that purpose. There are occasions when strikes are mere symptoms of a malaise. In a sense, they are often the rash, or the spots which appear on the skin's surface, and merely show the disease. In many instances the Bill merely represents a scratching of the rash, and is just as useless as a cure of the disease.
Then let us judge the Bill by the right hon. Gentleman's own claims. He said this afternoon, "Our problem"—referring to Britain—"has been in the informal system of company and plant bargaining"—in other words, unofficial strikes—"This kind of strike is peculiarly damaging". I doubt if the right hon. Gentleman will be saying that in two or three years' time when the result of the Bill has been to shift the emphasis from the unofficial strike to the official strike and when there has been a substantial increase in the number of official strikes and the number of work days thereby lost.
I do not believe that the Bill will reduce disputes. It may indeed even replace some strikes by something much worse, but few strikes will be stopped by it.
The right hon. Gentleman mentioned the provision for the ballot. He even mentioned it in connection with the postal strike. I must disabuse him. It would


indeed have been very tempting to suppose that all those postmen who were on strike were on strike because they were part of a mindless essembly of workers who were driven on by a Communist faction in the trade union. We have all seen letters to this effect in some of the national papers. It is not on.
I will disabuse the right hon. Gentleman from the Cornish experience, because there are few parts of the country that are less union-militant than Cornwall. It is almost impossible to get people to join a union there. I spend a lot of time trying to persuade people to join a union for their protection. I went to meetings of postal workers when they were on strike and made one or two remarks to the effect that the leadership had led them into a strike which they clearly could not win—they were then in the third week. It was they who said that they had forced the national strike upon the leadership. I was left in no doubt at all that had there been a ballot among Cornish postmen over 80 per cent. would have voted for the strike, even though they were then in the third week and they had when they started expected to go on for only three or four days.
I do not believe that the ballot will stop strikes in this way. A good trade union leader will not take his men out unless he believes that he has considerable support behind him.
The Secretary of State then said that the enforceability of contracts will make no difference where contracts and agreements are good and are kept. I maintain that it will make no difference even where contracts and agreements are bad and even where they are not kept. It will have very little effect indeed on this situation.
The idea that it will have little effect has been the Government's excuse and answer to so many of the points which have been raised in the course of debates on the Bill. Hon. Members have said, "But it will do this, that or the other thing", and then one of the Government spokesmen had said, "That is a gross exaggeration. It will have no effect. Nobody will use it".
If it is not to be used and if it is to have no effect upon such situations, I do not believe that it was worth all the fuss and bother of bringing it in.

Mr. R. Carr: Does the hon. Member oppose the Race Relations Bill for the same reasons?

Mr. Pardoe: Certainly not. I discussed this at some length in the debate on the Consultative Document. Of course it is possible that some kinds of legislation can create a climate, but I have looked in vain in these debates for any indication that this Bill can create a moral climate. I do not believe that it can. I believe that that is where it is fundamentally different from the Race Relations Bill, which is on a great moral principle and which is undoubtedly advancing the frontiers of man's humanity to man.
The right hon. Gentleman put emphasis on the code of practice. I would be prepared on trust to agree with him. In the very early stages of our debates I tabled an Amendment demanding that the code of practice should be published before the Bill became law, but the right hon. Gentleman turned that Amendment down. We still do not know wbat the code of practice is going to be. However, since the right hon. Gentleman turned down that Amendment, some strange rumours have been emanating and perhaps the right hon. Gentleman would confirm whether it is true that the gentleman who was brought in from the Conservative Central Office Research Department to write the code of practice has now left and has been replaced by a body of civil servants who do not happen to agree with the first draft that he concocted.
If we ask the questions: will the Bill improve industrial relations, or create greater harmony, or create greater productivity, or check wage inflation, the answer to all is "No".
Again I take the right hon. Gentleman up on one point. He said that British industrial workers will be on an equal footing with those in other countries. He is wrong. On Tuesday of last week my right hon. Friend the Member for Devon, North (Mr. Thorpe) asked the Prime Minister concerning Henry Ford whether he did not recognise that the success of Mr. Ford's industrial enterprises in Germany were in some measure due to the fact that in Germany workers had works councils and were given considerable power to elect directors on to the


board of directors. The Prime Minister replied as follows:
The right hon. Gentleman is correct in saying that this is one feature of the structure of German industry. Whether I put the same emphasis on it as he is prepared to do in achieving harmonious industrial relations, I doubt."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 16th March, 1971; Vol. 813, c. 1185.]
That again is a fundamental difference between the Conservative approach to industrial relations and ours.
Finally, one cannot separate one's final decision on the Bill from the method of its introduction and debate. I realise that it has aroused very strong feelings. I happen to believe, however, that some of those feelings may in some hon. Members have been just a little synthetic. Even the right hon. Member for Coventry, East (Mr. Crossman) in an editorial in the New Statesman pointed this out in an article headed "Politics by the Hour" when he said this:
Overjoyed by this opportunity for earning the good will of the unions the Labour Opposition was busily preparing for a mammoth series of all-night sittings lasting into the summer.
I do not mind if they stay up late to earn their money, but I will make quite clear why I went to bed. I went to bed because I was not prepared to take part in a mindless charade. I make no excuse at all for my attitude. Again, I would point to the fact that the right hon. Gentleman said, "boredom and contempt are likely to be the main popular reactions to these goings on." I believe that is the reaction of the public as a whole.
I believe that the Bill will do very little good to British industrial relations. After it all—all the hours we have spent and all the speeches—we would still have been better to have implemented Donovan untouched by human hand. For one who believes in parliamentary democracy as I do that is a sad admission, but because I have to make it I shall vote against the Third Reading of the Bill; and I shall do so, as will my right hon. and hon. Friends, for none of the reasons that motivate the right hon. Lady.
Indeed, the right hon. Lady's volte face and the antics of some of her colleagues and those of some of the mindless militants who have conducted political strikes

almost persuaded me to vote for this irrelevant Bill. I have resisted the temptation to do the wrong deed for the right reason, and I shall vote against the Bill because it is irrelevant to our problems.

Mr. Dudley Smith: Is this a personal decision of the hon. Gentleman, or does it go for his Liberal colleagues as well?

Mr. Pardoe: I am sorry if the Under-Secretary has been up rather late. I thought that my voice was working well—certainly better than his hearing. I said that I committed my right hon. and hon. Friends to doing precisely what I am now advising them to do.
I shall vote against the Bill because in the debate on the Consultative Document and on Second Reading we made it quite clear that we would support the Bill in the final analysis only if the Government were prepared to accept some reasonable Amendments. The Government have not accepted any Amendments. Indeed, large batches of Amendments have been washed away on the night tide.
One cannot conceivably vote for a Bill which has been handled in such a manner; and we shall vote against it.

7.10 p.m.

Mr. Ian Percival: I hope that the hon. Member for Cornwall, North (Mr. Pardoe) will not think me discourteous if I do not follow the details of his observations. There have been in the speeches so far so many interesting and provocative observations that I kept writing one down and then crossing it out to replace it with another. One such was a reference to lawyers waxing fat, which, like so many observations about lawyers, was very wide of the mark. But I shall resist rising to that bait.
However, I want to comment on the speech of the hon. Member for Gloucestershire, West (Mr. Loughlin), who is not here at the moment. That was typical of the near-hysterical speeches of which we have heard so many, which are wholly without foundation. He made these extraordinary statements about people going to prison under the Bill, which we all know are not true; and the statements about all trade unionists being against the Bill, which we all know are not true. Even if one qualified that, as he may have done, by saying that all


union officials are against the Bill, that simply is not true—

Mr. John Mendelson: Of course it is true.

Mr. Percival: I was about to say, if hon. Members will contain themselves, that of course many union officials are against the Bill—

Mr. Mendelson: They all are.

Mr. Percival: But to say that they all are, as the hon. Member is now saying, from a seated position, which does not make it any better than saying it standing up—

Mr. Mendelson: The Prime Minister and the Secretary of State both started by talking about some opinion among trade union leaders. We challenged that on the first day that they said it. Surely the unanimous condemnation by the General Council of the T.U.C. and by the Croydon Conference and every affiliated union finally proves that what the hon. and learned Gentleman is saying is nonsense.

Mr. Percival: The hon. Member makes the mistake of thinking that the T.U.C. and the unions affiliated to it are all the trade unionists. We all have in our constituencies many good unionists —as good as any in the House or on the T.U.C.—and many of these are not against the Bill. Nothing that the hon. Member says can change that. It is so silly to have that kind of speech again on Third Reading. We are debating big issues.
This is the Third Reading of the first comprehensive Industrial Relations Bill which has ever been through the House, and I should have thought that a great event by any test, whatever one thinks of the Bill. I was sorry that the right hon. Lady the Member for Blackburn (Mrs. Castle) did not rise to the occasion but made another of those mocking, carping and spiteful speeches. By any test, the House must recognise that this is a remarkable Bill. Thousands — nay, millions—have greeted it with paeans of praise and large numbers have greeted it with screams of rage. I agree with the hon. Member for Fife, West (Mr. William Hamilton) in—

Mr. William Hamilton: Please don't.

Mr. Orme: You are finished now, Willie.

Mr. Percival: Hon. Members will remember that the hon. Gentleman said that he was not even a "Lefty".
I agree with him that each of those extremes is quite unjustified and I think that both spring from the fact that far more people have commented on the Bill than have studied and understood it.
I want to comment on the two extremes —first, the paeans of praise. I pay my tribute to the Secretary of State, the Solicitor-General and the Under-Secretary. I am sure that everyone will agree that this is for them a moment of personal triumph of the first order. But that apart, the Bill has in some ways received a little too much adulation. This is dangerous, because it can lead people to regard it as a panacea for all ills—[Laughter.] Hon. Members may laugh. It is important that we should make clear to the country where the Bill fits into the overall strategy.
I speak mainly as a lawyer—[HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] I hope that, when hon. Members who are not lawyers speak, they will recognise that perhaps there is one aspect of this in which lawyers may know a little more than they do. As a lawyer, I want to refute in unqualified terms the suggestion that any lawyer believes that the law can take over, or solve the problems of industrial relations. The sole question—I know that my right hon. and hon. Friends on the Front Bench entirely agree with me on this—is what contribution the law can make to the efforts of others—

Mr. Ted Fletcher: Be proud of it.

Mr. Percival: I hope that we can, in the midst of this frivolity and in the midst of such near-hysteria as we have heard on occasion, at least, on this Third Reading, have a quiet look at what the Bill does. I want to mention only three things, for those who say that it makes no contribution. Surely we can give up this huffing and puffing now and accept that the laying down of guidelines for the first time must, if there is any good will about, serve a useful purpose.
We must surely, if we all value individual freedoms, acknowledge that the Bill, for the first time, grasps a nettle and lays


down people's individual freedoms. To some hon. Members opposite, it may seem to go too far. I do not think that it goes far enough, especially Clause 5(1,a), where the rights to join an organisation are not wide enough, but those are Committee points—and I will not go back on them here.

Mr. Arthur Lewis: There should be a hanging Clause.

Mr. Percival: I hope that hon. Members will at least recognise that one of the main objects and achievements of the Bill is to provide remedies for resolving difficulties, where no remedies existed before. In some respects some may be wrong and it may be fair to criticise the precise methods chosen, but surely the House can recognise that new remedies are introduced for resolving some of the types of dispute which we know to be all too common.
I thought that the hon. Member for Fife, West, although I agreed with him wholeheartedly on one thing, was rather carping about unfair dismissal. There are difficult provisions because one is dealing with a complicated situation and starting from scratch. Surely we can all agree that it is wholly desirable to provide a remedy for the man who, although his contract of employment has been properly terminated, may be justly entitled to some compensation. I hope that now that we have had a good discussion of these provisions in Committee—

Mr. Rose: Far from having a good discussion in Committee we were not allowed, because of the guillotine, to debate one of the Clauses on unfair dismissal.

Mr. Percival: I withdraw—

Mr. Arthur Lewis: The hon. and learned Gentleman was not here.

Mr. Percival: Let the hon. Member for West Ham, North (Mr. Arthur Lewis) not get too worked up. I withdraw immediately what I said. The hon. Gentleman is right. On that occasion, I was not here. What I should have said is that we have had an opportunity to discuss the provisions among ourselves—[Laughter.]—yes, on both sides of the House. Despite my inaccuracy, I had

hoped that the hon. Member for Penistone (Mr. John Mendelson), who laughs so heartily, would have said that he hoped that the provisions will achieve what they set out to do—to give a remedy which will provide compensation for men who lose their jobs in circumstances in which hitherto they would have had no rights at all. Now they may receive substantial compensation. I hope that, at this late stage, we shall wish these provisions a fair wind.
I want to turn to the screams of rage which we have heard. One of the most popular is that the Bill is a lawyer's paradise—a mass of technical jargon. I have some sympathy with that view. That part of Psalm 119, appointed for last Sunday, contains the words:
Shew the light of thy countenance upon thy servant: and teach me thy statutes.
I must say that I for one sang that couplet with some feeling. But it is a bad point to suggest that the Bill will not work because it is very technical. It is a bad point to say that the man on the factory floor will not be able to read it. He will not want to. There are lots of Statutes which are wholly beneficial to the man on the factory floor which he could not begin to understand if he tried. For example, there is the Employers' Liability (Defective Equipment) Act, 1969. The hon. Member for Bothwell (Mr. James Hamilton) and I served on the Standing Committee dealing with that Act, and I am not sure that we understood it.

Mr. James Hamilton: It is true that the hon. and learned Gentleman and I served on that Committee together and I am the first to admit that I did not understand the technicalities and legal phraseology. At the same time, however, I understood the practicalities because I have worked in that field all my life.

Mr. Speaker: Order. After this exchange of compliments, let us get back to the Third Reading of the Industrial Relations Bill.

Mr. Percival: You will appreciate how agreeable it is, Mr. Speaker, to be able to agree across the Floor of the House on anything in this context. I agree with the hon. Member for Bothwell about the technicalities of that Act. They were difficult to follow. But we all knew, as the


man on the factory floor knew, that we were passing something beneficial to him, and the fact that he could not personally read it and understand it was immaterial. I do not think that the fact that a layman could not read and understand parts of this Bill has any great relevance to the issue.
Having been diverted by an agreeable agreement across the Chamber, I will leave out the next part of my speech and come to my conclusion. It has been claimed that we lawyers will immediately get a stranglehold on industrial relations —or that everyone will immediately fly to the arms of the lawyers. That is nonsense. I say that because I believe it to be true. These provisions are
regarded by lawyers as last resorts and longstops. Most of our life is spent keeping people out of court. We never let them get into court unless everything else fails. Hon. Members have said, "If that is true, why set up all this paraphernalia?". That is a bad point also. Under the ordinary civil law, we have courts all over the country—quite a paraphernalia and establishment. That does not mean that people spend their lives in them. The vast majority of our people go through life without ever going into a court. But all the paraphernalia of those courts is there as a long-stop, and as a longstop only. If hon. Members opposite could just get it into their heads that lawyers have no wish to regard these provisions as anything but a last resort, they might well begin to have fewer misgivings.
Finally, I want to take up the point made by the right hon. Lady the Member for Blackburn at the conclusion of her speech. She asked us, "Does anyone really think that the Bill will improve industrial relations?" I am glad to have the opportunity to say, "Yes, I do." Given the minimum good will and cooperation, this Bill can make a contribution to better industrial relations. How big that contribution will be remains to be seen. We have to see how it works in practice. I hope that after we have gone through all the democratic processes here, we shall hear no more talk about non-co-operation.

Mr. John Mendelson: We have not been through all the democratic processes.

Mr. Percival: There is the other place as well.

Mr. Mendelson: That is a bad point.

Mr. Percival: The hon. Gentleman does not like this very much, does he? I believe that if in fact the co-operation needed to make the Bill work were withheld, the people of this country would not lightly forgive those who, by withholding that co-operation, would knowingly place their country at risk.

7.27 p.m.

Mr. Stanley Orme: I hope that the hon. and learned Member for Southport (Mr. Percival) will excuse me if I do not follow him on that last tack. I want to come at once to one of the central issues of the Third Reading. We arrived at this debate following the protracted urban guerrilla warfare waged last night against the Bill by the Labour Party. Some uncomplimentary things have been said by hon. Members opposite, which they are entitled to say, about our attitude. The right hon. Gentleman himself referred to the numbers involved last night.
We were aware that the Third Reading of the Bill would be the last major opportunity to express our opinion. We were aware that the T.U.C. petition, with over 500,000 signatures, was to be presented to the House today. We were aware that a lobby of leading trade unionists, headed by the General Council, would be at the House today. Last night, we opposed every Clause and every Amendment moved by voting for the longest time in succession in any British Parliament—certainly many times longer than when such a situation last occurred, in 1907. By that demonstration, the Labour Party showed that its opposition to the Bill had not weakened one iota.
That refutes the comments made by political and industrial commentators following the Croydon conference last Thursday and the remarks made by Ministers—quoted and unquoted—to the effect that the British Labour Party's opposition to the Bill was crumbling, that we should come to accept it, that we felt that it was inevitable, and that our resistance would no longer matter. I believe that the right hon. Gentleman himself was on record in one newspaper, and off the record in another, making that very point; he felt that we should come to accept the Bill and that we might as well face the inevitable.
In the light of what was done last night, and the organised manner in which the British Labour Party maintained its opposition, there is no foundation whatever for comments of that kind or for the idea that either now or in the future we shall accept the Bill or any part of it. Speaking from the back benches, I speak only for myself, of course, but I say that without fear of contradiction from any of my right hon. and hon. Friends around me now.

Mr. Nicholas Scott: The hon. Gentleman has referred to certain comments from this side of the House about the solidarity of the Parliamentary Labour Party in opposing the Bill. What would he say of the remark of a former Minister, reported in The Times this morning, that the Shadow Cabinet were making "bloody fools of themselves" last night?

Mr. Orme: We all have our problems. The hon. Gentleman knows that as well as I do, and I shall not embarrass him by giving examples from his side. Neither the Conservative Party nor the Labour Party is a monolithic structure. We have a form of collective freedom, but within that, individual freedom operates. I do not deny that 287 Members did not express a unanimous view, but the fact that only one or two can be found and called in aid is of great significance. The weightier evidence is there, and the actions of my right hon. and hon. Friends last night were an indication of their faith and their strength in opposition to the Bill.
I come to the position of the Liberal Party. We have had an interesting experience in relation to hon. Members on the Liberal bench. The hon. and learned Member for Montgomery (Mr. Hooson), I acknowledge at once, has frequently attended the debates and has made some very articulate and well-informed contributions. He was right to make them, even though they were all opposed to the view which I represent. But the Liberals have changed their attitude in an extraordinary fashion. They voted for the Second Reading. They voted for Clause 5(1)(b), the non-unionist Clause. A little later, they proposed a new Clause which would give workers the right to break contracts to take action

for such reasons as stopping arms for South Africa, and so on.
In other words, the Liberals have been selective in their approach. Tonight, they have arrived at a form of opposition to the Bill, though, having listened to the hon. Member for Cornwall, North (Mr. Pardoe), I cannot see why he does not intend to vote with the Conservatives on Third Reading. [HON. MEMBERS: "He has been converted."] If my hon. Friends think that I have converted the Liberals, they have far more faith in my powers than I have.

Mr. John Mendelson: I think that the Liberals are voting against the Bill tonight because they know that it is utterly unpopular among the electorate.

Mr. Pardoe: The hon. Gentleman makes a point of our voting for Clause 5 and then proposing a conscience Clause. Everyone recognises that there are issues of conscience at stake in any Bill of this kind. The hon. Gentleman's argument would deny the right of conscientious objection even in war.

Mr. Orme: The trade unions in this country have always recognised the right of conscience and have allowed people with genuine conscientious objections to contract out. When we challenged hon. Members opposite to show chapter and verse to disprove that, they could produce not a jot of evidence. That argument does not hold water.
The Bill establishes a legal framework for trying to administer industrial relations in Britain. It will not get off the ground. The Secretary of State has tried to encompass every aspect of industrial relations. Indeed, he made the boast earlier today that this was the first comprehensive Bill ever proposed in a British Parliament. But he has so framed the Bill to cover every aspect of industrial relations that, if it could ever work at all, it could work only within the legal framework which has been set up.
In Clause 57 and the provisions regarding registration, we start at the beginning of the road. We start there with legal sanctions and compulsions in regard to both registration and rules. From that everything flows. That cannot be denied
Many of us have been charged with not being concerned with the freedom of the individual. I have refuted that already.


We live in a democracy. We have to accept that there is an elected Government, though elected on a minority vote, as there have been previous Governments elected on a minority vote. In a democracy, one has to accept the rule of the majority on certain aspects of life, and on others one can oppose.
In trade unionism, the collective freedom is not set against individual freedom. On the contrary, individual freedom operates within the collective freedom itself. If a trade union is democratic and has real freedom within its organisation, the chance of the individual being trampled is very remote. The T.U.C. itself has urged trade unions to ensure that their rules cover this point, and the Secretary of State will, I am sure, acknowledge that.
At the risk of boring the House, I will refer again to my own union, the A.U.E.W. Along with two or three other major unions, it will be one of the principal organisations affected by the Bill, and it operates in the major engineering industry. In my union, we have a policy-making body which is rank-and-file, and we have an executive council which is elected directly by the men themselves within the industry. Admittedly, I should like there to be 50, 60 or 70 per cent. polls, but this does not happen, just as it does not happen in municipal or Parliamentary elections—except, perhaps, in Northern Ireland and one or two other places. We are in a major city where the municipal vote, unfortunately, perhaps is not higher than 25 per cent., and the same is true elsewhere.
But in my union this is how democracy works. Where a member is disciplined by his branch for, say, not taking part in the 1st March or 18th March strike—let us not dodge this issue—he might be summoned to his branch. He is allowed to express his point of view and be represented. The matter then goes to the district committee. He has a right to be heard again, and then it goes to the executive council, which makes the decision. The member has a final appeal to a rank-and-file body of 11 members independently elected by the membership, with no control by any officer. The chairman is also a rank-and-file member, and the only officer of the union attending is the general secretary. None of the executive officers nor the president of my union attends.
This democracy works. I have seen it in operation and have taken part in it. As in the courts, a decision can be reversed by a higher body, reaffirmed by the
next body, and so on. I wish that hon. Members could see the care and vigilance exercised. A final appeal court might go on for as long as two or three weeks while detailed individual cases are taken. A member has the right to challenge any executive officer and have any executive decision checked against the rules of the union, which is registered under the 1871 Act.

Mr. R. Carr: I have no reason to doubt the hon. Gentleman. If he is saying that the rules for disciplinary procedure within his union are so good and so democratic, the Registrar will be delighted and certainly will not interfere with them.

Mr. John Mendelson: How can the Minister speak for the Registrar?

Mr. Orme: Trade unions are under more public scrutiny, quite rightly, than at any time. If an unjustifiable action is
given publicity, so much the better. But when I get to know the details the matter is often not quite as I read it in the Press.
The democracy of which I speak operates on a free, independent basis, free from State interference, other than the law which we are all under. I have recognised that all along. I and my hon. Friends accept that the trade unions are no more outside the law than any other body or person. When we have free independent trade unions, open to the Press and television, when we have this democracy, to turn to the Registrar under this act to interfere will only do severe damage.
I have talked to some of the members of my union who have come here this afternoon—responsible officers, shop stewards, branch officials, full-time officers. I do not think that the Government appreciate the depth of feeling in the trade union movement. They are not dealing with the brain; they are dealing with the heart of the matter. In effect, they are impinging on rights that people feel almost instinctively. I have tried to express this feeling sometimes in the House, probably very inadequately, because I feel it also. I feel that it is democracy that I am talking about.
I have seen what is happening in other countries, including the United States and parts of Europe. I was in Czechoslovakia before Mr. Dubcek, the reforming Prime Minister, was overthrown, and I saw the demands there for a free Press, a free Parliament and free independent trade unions. Those are three cornerstones of our democracy. It cannot be denied that the Bill introduces a corporate approach that will remove one of those cornerstones. That is why we feel so strongly, so passionately and so deeply on the issue.

Mr. Tom King: I recognise the deep sincerity with which the hon. Gentleman speaks on this matter. He has spelt out what he believes is a model situation, and I think that he would put to the House a model structure of union rules. He then says that the Registrar will interfere in this model situation. For what reason would the Registrar seek to interfere with what the hon. Gentleman obviously believes is a model situation?

Mr. Orme: The hon. Gentleman can start with Clause 57, and go on particularly to Clause 61. If my union refuses to register as such it will become an organisation of workers, and then it loses certain rights, such as income tax concessions. If the hon. Gentleman looks at all the points itemised in Schedule 3, he will see that this is a real interference. I urge him to take into account our strength of feeling on the issue.
We are told that the Bill is to deal with strikes, particularly unofficial strikes and strikes that occur spontaneously. It is said that these are our major problem, and that they take place only in certain sectors of industry. Let us take a sore point in my industry, the engineering and general manufacturing industry. Let us look at the strengths and weaknesses in the car industry and car components industry, and not dodge the issue. Does anybody think that the Bill will improve the position there, when in many sections of those industries, unfortunately, an industrial jungle has already been created and is exceedingly difficult to untangle?
I hope that hon. Members were able to see the television programme the other night in which the Solicitor-General and the president of my union, Hugh

Scanlon, took part. Hugh Scanlon was asked what was needed to improve industrial relations, and he said that the first thing was a new procedure agreement within the engineering industry. When he was asked, "Have you been trying to get a new procedure agreement?", he said, "Yes, since 1922, when the last one was imposed upon us at the time of the engineering employers' lock-out." An argument about procedure agreements is not a simple matter. We are also talking about power in industry. The argument is not about making agreements enforceable but on the issue of the status quo.
We are told that we need the Bill because trade unions are too powerful, that the balance has swung in their favour. When my hon. Friends and I move around the country visiting all sorts of factories and industries, how often are we met at the door by the shop steward and shown around the factory? Very rarely indeed. It is not a question of that. The Minister understands very well that the real crunch within the engineering industry comes on the question of managerial functions, and the point that in 1971 managements should not have the right to make changes without the workers first being consulted and the proposed changes going through the consultative machinery.
That is what they are asking for. Taking the York Memorandum as it is at present, it could take us anything from three to 18 months, but with the new procedure, agreements could be settled in most plants and most areas in the district concerned, while in a difficult case it could go to a central authority and the maximum period would be a month or two months. Is that too long to ask managements to allow the status quo to be maintained while there is discussion?
In the sort of situation which there is in industry today, with redundancies, with mergers, with all the uncertainty about employment, and which affects managers now as much as labourers or fitters, the workers want some form of security and want to have a right to be consulted—not just in name, not by just being told when the redundancies are posted; they want to be told about them before that, and they want to be consulted about methods of production and changes in methods of production which


take place at any plant. Is it too much to ask management to provide that? Is that a swing in favour of the workers? This is only to ask for a period of neutrality while the situation is being discussed. It is not a swing either way.
I know that hon. Members would not want me now to go through all the Clauses of the Bill; they have been gone through very adequately; but I would say to my hon. Friend the Member for Fife, West (Mr. William Hamilton), who made a very good speech, as he always does, and in a most affable manner, that having gone through many days and nights and weeks on this Bill, having looked at the number of prescribed unfair industrial practices, considering Clauses 85, 86 and 87, and what Clause 67 means about registration, and collective agreements under Clause 33, and what Clause 134 says about strikes, this Bill is heavily weighted against the trade union movement. In consequence, we are opposed to it.
That brings me to the politics of the matter and to the Croydon decision last week. There was a great deal of crowing following the Croydon decision. It was headlined that Mr. Jones and Mr. Scanlon had been defeated on their call for militant action. What those who crowed omitted to say was what was the unanimous decision following the endeavours of Mr. Jones and Mr. Scanlon to alter the T.U.C. decision. What was carried unanimously at Croydon? First, on registration, that affiliated unions should be strongly advised not to become registered under the Bill. Secondly, on repeal of the Bill when it becomes an Act, the resolution was that the General Council should seek from the Parliamentary Labour Party an explicit, unconditional assurance of repeal of the Act.
On collective agreements it was unanimously agreed that affiliated unions should take steps to ensure that they do not enter into legally binding collective agreements. Fourthly, on the Bridlington principles and the T.U.C. procedure for disputes, it was unanimously decided that the General Council will support affiliated unions which take steps to maintain and strengthen trade union organisations and existing T.U.C. procedures. This runs directly counter to the Bill because such steps would be an unfair industrial practice in many instances. I ask the Secre-

tary of State to notice—he must have read it—that, as to statutory bodies, trade unions shall be advised not to serve on the Industrial Relations Court; in the event of the Bill becoming an Act, that trade unionists should be withdrawn from the employed persons panel of industrial tribunals, and trade unions shall be advised not to serve on the Commission on Industrial Relations.
My hon. Friends will not have failed to see what Mr. George Woodcock said yesterday. He is still at the moment the Chairman of the C.I.R. He openly condemned this Bill and said it would not work because it was not on a voluntary basis. Many of us have a great respect for Mr. Woodcock, having worked with him for many years. It must be said that he must be in a very difficult position personally and I know that he must be thinking very hard and considering his personal position very closely indeed.
There was also the point about meeting the costs of unions in defending themselves against action taken against them, and authorising that assistance. Trade unions were criticised for not going more readily to the help of the U.P.W. during the Post Office dispute. The reason why they were not able to do that was they did not have funds which were transferable from one union to another for the purpose of helping a union in such circumstances. My word, we shall see such funds created now to fight this Bill and to assist unions fighting the Government as such. There was also a call for united action.
The Government are producing legislation which will be impossible to implement. If they start to force it into effect, it will bite in certain quarters and cause problems and industrial trouble. How can they carry it out when millions of people are opposed to it and see that it is not balanced at all? What sort of situation is that? What Mr. Harold Macmillan said the other day, as I read on Monday, was very interesting. He came out in support of the Prime Minister and of the Bill, but he said in a very interesting sentence:
There are many battles which have to be fought and won, but they should be won in such a way that leaves behind no deep wounds.
That is the advice of a former Conservative Prime Minister who could probably


take the temperature a good deal better than can the present Prime Minister. The inference of that sentence is that the Government are going to leave behind wounds so deep that the class issues in this country will be heightened, and there will be no healing of the breach and no co-operation with this Government while the Bill exists.
I return to the question of repeal. The Labour Party and the trade union movement must discuss this matter in the terms of the new T.U.C. decision. I know the terms of the motion which my hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, Walton (Mr. Heffer) and my right hon. Friend the Member for Sowerby (Mr. Houghton) had at the time of the Second Reading, but having talked with leading trade unionists and rank-and-file members up and down the country, I can say that they will accept nothing short of a total commitment by the Labour Party to repeal the Bill. They will accept nothing else. There is no doubt at all that this policy will be written into the policy of the Labour Party and of the trade union movement, if not before the autumn then certainly at the autumn conferences. This will be done.
The Bill, if it becomes an Act, will be for short duration, but it will do great damage to industrial relations. It will do nothing to solve strikes and it will do nothing to deal with wage claims. While it exists, it will be like a sore thumb in the middle of our economic situation.
I am convinced that the Labour Government and the Labour movement will be united in repealing it, and when we go to the country, it will be for total repeal. When we return as a Labour Government, after the traumatic experience of the Labour and trade union movement, which I went through as a Labour back bencher—although we now face the problem again under a Tory Government, but in a much worse form—we shall get our priorities right and we shall be going for growth and expansion, for industrial democracy and free trade unionism. That is what the repeal of the Bill means, and I beg my hon. Friends to support me.

8.1 p.m.

Mr. Nicholas Scott: Hon. Members always listen to

the hon. Member for Salford, West (Mr. Orme) with a great deal of respect and they did so through the Committee and Report stages of the Bill, and I was sorry that he ended his contribution to the Third Reading debate on that note. If the Labour Party is to go into the next election campaign with repeal of the Bill nailed to its masthead, I for one will look forward to that campaign with a certain relish. The Labour Party would be foolish to do so. We may not be able to convince the hon. Gentleman, even if the Bill works in practice, that there are benefits in it for trade unions and trade unionists, but I think that we will convince the mass of the people, as many of them are already convinced, that this is so.
The hon. Member talked very movingly from deep knowledge of his own union, the A.E.W., of the rules of his union and the many admirable procedures which it has for appeals and so on; but not all unions are as happily organised and those standards are not universal. The real lesson that might have been drawn from the E.T.U. case was not that reference to a court of law would have solved it, but that, if the Bill with registration had been enacted, those complaining about the corrupt hold of the Communist Party on the unions could have complained to the Registrar, and the Registrar could have investigated the matter and it could have been put right much more quickly and straightforwardly.
The hon. Member for Salford, West will not be surprised to learn that my interpretation of the events of last night differs from his. About half the Parliamentary Labour Party bothered to stay to fight in this "great crusade" against the Bill.

Mr. Heffer: rose—

Mr. Scott: Sit down.

Mr. Heffer: rose—

Mr. Scott: Sit down.

Mr. Heffer: rose—

Mr. Deputy Speaker (Miss Harvie Anderson): There is no point in pressing the matter. If the hon. Member for Paddington, South (Mr. Scott) does not give way, the hon. Member for Liverpool, Walton (Mr. Heffer) must resume his seat.

Mr. Heffer: On a point of order. The hon. Gentleman cannot make statements of that kind, be challenged and requested to give way so that the correct position of the Labour Party may be explained, and refuse to give way. It is not good enough.

Mr. Deputy Speaker: The hon. Member knows very well that that is not a point of order.

Mr. Scott: I think—

Mr. Iremonger: rose—

Mr. Scott: I give way to my hon. Friend.

Mr. Heffer: Oh, yes, give way to him!

Mr. Iremonger: With great respect, my hon. Friend the Member for Paddington, South (Mr. Scott) has not been here all the time, but many of us have. We do not have too much time now. We have been over all this before and it is a bad point.

Mr. Scott: My hon. Friend may make his speech as he wishes and I will make mine. I voted in every Division last night and all yesterday afternoon. I did not miss one.

Mr. Heffer: rose—

Mr. Scott: No, I will not give way. I have heard the hon. Gentleman's interpretation and I have heard the interpretation of the hon. Member for Salford, West; now let me put mine.

Mr. Heffer: You cannot explain the Labour Party.

Mr. Scott: I do not believe that the heart of the Labour Party was in that exercise last night. If we are all to quote from Henry V which seems so fashionable today, the speech to quote is that before that quoted by the Prime Minister in his Press release, or whatever it was, when the King said:
Those who have no stomach for the fight let them depart.
and they did; they were off last night. That is the real interpretation of what happened last night.
Today and through the months and weeks of its consideration by the House and the country the Bill has been sub-

jetted to a campaign of misrepresentation and misinterpretation the like of which I have never seen before about a Bill. Today, I want to consider three misapprehensions. The trouble is that hon. Members opposite get into a situation in which they go round the country putting advertisements in the newspapers and so on and eventually they believe their own myths, and they have trotted them out in the House today.
The hon. Member for Fife, West (Mr. William Hamilton) wrote in the newspapers exhorting those making arms for South Africa not to make those arms. There is no reason why any hon. Member, or anybody else, should not make a speech, or write an article, if necessary exhorting people to strike in order that arms should not be sold to South Africa, so long as he is not exhorting them to do it in breach of their contract of service. As long as that condition is met, there is no restriction under the terms of the Bill.
Secondly, there is no provision in the Bill by which any person may be put in prison. I will not labour that, for the point has already been made.
Thirdly, hon. Members opposite have talked about fines and imprisonment. It was during the Committee stage that we reached the absolute absurdity when the the hon. Member for Manchester, Blackley (Mr. Rose), speaking from the Opposition Front Bench, quoted Clause 54 as an example of a provision by which fines could be imposed. That is the Clause by which employers who fail to make returns of their procedure agreements are liable to a fine. The T.U.C. campaign and speeches such as we have heard in the House have led to a situation in which Labour Members have come to believe their own myths.
At last we come to the Third Reading. One of the most significant things is that we have now had three Ministers of Labour, as I still prefer to call them, on the trot—my right hon. Friend, the right hon. Lady the Member for Blackburn (Mrs. Castle) and the right hon. Member for Southwark (Mr. Gunter)—each of whom has been persuaded by experience in that office—my right hon. Friend by experience in the Department earlier and from studying the matter—that legislation was necessary. The right


hon. Member for Southwark has stuck to his guns. The right hon. Lady was first sold down the river and then, in order to re-establish herself inside her own party, she led the opposition to the Bill.
The right hon. Lady has talked a great deal about democracy, industrial democracy and democracy on the shop floor. It is our provisions for recognition which provide that the workpeople concerned shall ballot. Her provisions provided that the arrangements should be imposed by order of the Secretary of State upon those workpeople. It has been interesting to note that the closer her proposals came to those in the Bill, the greater the hysteria with which she has spoken from the Front Bench.
As I was tramping through the Lobbies last night, I happened to read a short piece from Voltare which seemed particularly appropriate—[HON. MEMBERS: "Which union is he in?"] He said:
We live in curious times and amid astonishing contrasts: reason on the one hand, the most absurd fanaticism on the other; sauve qui peut.
Anybody who has watched the Committee and Report stages of the Bill and observed the contrast between my right hon. Friend and the right hon. Lady will know on which side was reason and on which fanaticism.
I do not believe that the provisions for registration are onerous. If every company and charity have to comply with certain laws which society lays down and expects them to honour, I can think of no valid reason for trade unions not being expected to observe minimum standards laid down by society.
On the balance of rights between the agency shop and the closed shop, perhaps the oldest conflict in our society, the balance between freedom and order, I cannot, though I have looked at it closely, say that the solution which the Government have arrived at will be damaging to trade unions.
I should like to see a stronger declaration in the Bill about the duty of people to belong to a trade union normally. The exact provisions for the establishment of the agency shop will, I believe, be a considerable aid to trade unions, not an inhibiting factor, in recruiting members.
The Bill is based on the civil law, not on the criminal law. There are real benefits for trade unions and for work-people. For the first time, trade unions will have the right of recognition, the elimination in the agency shop situation of the free riders, and the right to information which they need on which to bargain for collective agreements. For workpeople there will be extended periods of notice for those with long service and, for the first time in our history, a dismissals appeals procedure, and they will be able to get information about the company for which they work. The whole concept and basis of the Bill is summed up in the language which it uses—fairness and unfairness. That seems to be the secret.
If I had to identify the one thing above all for which I believe the country looks from this Bill, it is that the unofficials, the militants, what the former Prime Minister in his more clear-headed times used to call the politically motivated men, will no longer be able to call strikes in breach of agreements and go scot free. It is common ground—as almost everybody who has studied the problem will agree—that the unofficial strike called by unofficial groupings is one of the most serious problems facing British industry. The Bill will provide a solution to that problem. I believe that it will lay the basis for an improvement in industrial relations. Unless we get that improvement, any other attempts to improve and expand our economy will founder. Those who oppose the Bill in the irresponsible way that some have will, I believe, be treated appropriately by the electorate at the next election.

8.14 p.m.

Mr. Kevin McNamara: If the hon. Member for Paddington, South (Mr. Scott) believes what he said in his peroration that this Bill will achieve he will believe anything. The Bill will not achieve any of the things which he wants. If the hon. Gentleman feels that he will stop the unofficial strikes and the militants by virtue of this legislation and the various sanctions which it imposes, he does not know the British industrial scene; he does not know what happens in a large factory complex, on a dockside, on a quayside, or anywhere. The unofficial groupings


will continue to exist. The hon. Gentleman and his leader should be trying to find a remedy leading to a situation in which grievances do not exist and in which these people will not have fertile ground on which to work. If the hon. Gentleman thinks that the Bill will supply such a groundwork he is mistaken. As my hon. Friend the Member for Salford, West (Mr. Orme) said, right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite are creating such a deep wound of resentment, such a great feeling about the whole issue, that they will find it very hard to get any co-operation.
The hon. Member for Paddington, South said that there had been considerable heat from the Labour Party and a sustained campaign of vilification and misrepresentation against the Bill. The misrepresentation has come from the Government. They have been trying to sell the Bill as some new panacea which would solve industrial relations problems and would suddenly do something to our economy which would set it alight, burning, and ready for expansion. It will do none of those things. The people responsible for our financial stagnation are right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite.
The hon. Gentleman made a wonderful Jesuitical point about distinguishing between urging people to take unofficial action as extraneous parties to a dispute and urging them to break their contracts. It may be said, in the particularly closely drawn example which he gave, that that might not be a cause of action under Clause 87. But all that a person has to say to a shop steward at Brough to be liable under Clause 87 is, "If I were making aeroplanes for South Africa, I should stop the job" or, "If I were on the dock loading Wasp helicopters for South Africa, I should stop the job." For a man to state his opinion in such words would make him liable under Clause 87. This is what the hon. Gentleman failed to face. This is the real danger, to which I shall come again in a short time.
Hon. Gentlemen opposite have said at various times today that we could have discussed this, that or the other. But we did not. The reason was that their own Front Bench was afraid of their own Bill. The more we examined and went into it, the more its imperfections

were revealed. No more classic example of bungling could be revealed than the fact that the Government yesterday had to withdraw 40 Amendments because, in their own timetable, they had not allowed sufficient time to enable them to be voted upon, never mind discussed, and they were withdrawn to save the following day's business. That is the kind of bungling which we expect from this Government.
This is a Government of complete contradictions. The Secretary of State today gave the impression that the Bill was good for trade unions. But this was not the impression given by the Prime Minister on Second Reading. The point which he
made was that the Bill was to do with economic policy. The point which the Prime Minister was making in his speech was that trade unions had been too successful in getting real increases in wages for their members and, thereby, doing one of the jobs for which they had been created. Now, to prevent unions being so successful, it has been found necessary to introduce this legislation.
That is not the only contradiction. The Secretary of State and various of his cohorts went round the country condemning the "mindless militancy" of the A.E.F.W.U. executive and urging its members not to come out on strike on 18th March. On the other hand, when there is an unofficial strike against the wishes of the union executive, they go around condemning the action of the unofficial strikers.
The Government cannot have it both ways. They cannot demand either a strong executive and a weak rank and file or a strong rank and file and a weak executive. But this is what they are trying to do in the interpretation which they put upon it. In so doing, they are going back to the bad old days of trade unionism, "bad" in this sense being very much a relative term. When there was an all-powerful trade union executive—when we had the diktat coming from above and the gulf appearing between the executive and the rank and file member—we had far more disagreements and problems in industry than now.
My union executive has said that it will sign no agreement until the members involved have discussed it. That


is the best way. People will be saying, "The Transport and General should have insisted that the members accepted the latest offer from Ford." They cannot have it both ways. This is what this Measure is doing. At the start of the Bill we had a long discussion about whether this was the beginning of the creation of a corporate state. Government hands were thrown up in horror and it was said that this was not the case but that this was another nasty Labour exaggeration.
Yet let us look at some of the provisions of the Bill. For a start there is the creation of a hierarchy of work-peoples' organisations, the special register and the general register—that smacks a bit of Franco. Then there is an attack upon the independence of the judiciary. If we look at the terms and conditions of the appointments of the appointed lay members to this new National Industrial Relations Court it will be seen that they are appointed for a period of three years but the Lord Chancellor and the Secretary of State may remove any appointed member whom they think is unfit for office at any time. There are the seeds of it; there is the situation whereby members of a judicial body acting as assessors will be under pressures. This is very important and it is already reflected too in the Government's attitude to Hugh Clegg and Jack Scamp.
Then there is freedom of speech. We have already had that illustrated by the example I gave to the hon. Member for Paddington, South, the great liberal hope of the Tory Party.

Mr. Arthur Lewis: Where is he?

Mr. McNamara: I do not know.

Mr. Arthur Lewis: On a point of order. Can I ask you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, to point out to the House the usual custom and courtesy that has existed for 25 years to my knowledge whereby hon. Members who have just made a speech wait at least to hear the following speech? My hon. Friend wants to refer to an hon. Member who is absent. I am not picking him out particularly because it happens both ways and the House gets into difficulties

because it is impossible to judge whether there has been a fair or unfair comment. As a courtesy to the House the Chair should point out that this is the usual custom.

Mr. Deputy Speaker (Miss Harvie Anderson): I doubt whether the House would appreciate that from the Chair but I am sure that the House has taken the point made by the hon. Member.

Mr. McNamara: My third point was the attack upon freedom of speech and my fourth is the imposition of procedure agreements, an action imposing upon people the conditions under which they will work without their necessarily having been asked about them, either through their unions or their employers. They have only one alternative—work or unemployment. My final point is the Clauses against sympathetic strikes. These points are the bricks which go towards the building of a corporate state.

Mr. Patrick Cormack: I appreciate the hon. Gentleman is speaking with great sincerity. Can he say what his views are on those members of unions who are brought before their unions and fined, as happened recently with those who refused to take part in the one-day strike?

Mr. McNamara: I will answer this point. The hon. Member could not have been here for the very fine speech of my lion. Friend the Member for Salford, West who dealt with this point in relation to his
union in complete detail. I would refer him to my hon. Friend's speech. In my union, the Transport and General, and I have the rule book here, we have a system whereby at every one of our biennial conferences we elect six members to form an appeals committee, independent lay members of the union.
To them any decision, from the general executive council upwards to the branch of the union, can be sent and discussed on a proper basis. Members of my union, if they are fined or disciplined by their branch have an opportunity for an impartial investigation into their case, because every decision can be challenged. The hon. Member should get to know something about unions and union procedure. I would almost say that there is more opportunity in a trade union for a person, stage by stage to have his case


re-examined and further examined than exists even in our fine system of law.

Mr. Cormack: Is the hon. Gentleman really suggesting that that sort of union set-up is a more impartial judicial body than that which will be provided under the Bill?

Mr. McNamara: I am, certainly. In an industrial situation there are fellow workmen who know about the situation and the difficulties. If that is translated into a place where there is a lawyer and two highly respected people, all very experienced, with a beautiful knowledge of the law, good at parsing sentences, but ignorant of what is going on on the shop floor and the sort of pressures there, then they will not understand the occurrence which has led to the disciplining of a member.
There is a real fear of a corporate State here. This is why we need free trade unions. This is why trade unions are always the first to be attacked under any dictatorship. This is why we want to keep our trade unions within the law, not as part and parcel of it, not as a registered union, not as organisations which have to police their membership, and it could happen under an imposed procedure, but with a collective organisation with not only, in the words of my hon. Friend the Member for Salford, West, "freedom within that body" but freedom because of that body for the majority of working people.

8.30 p.m.

Mr. David Waddington: I listened with care to the remarks of the hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull, North (Mr. McNamara) and I thought his interpretation of the events of last night rather droll, but I will not dwell on that.
I appreciate the intensity of feeling on the part of hon. Gentlemen opposite on this subject and I do not challenge their honesty when they assert, in extremely eloquent speeches, that the Bill will deprive trade unions and their members of their legitimate rights.
I do not agree with hon. Gentlemen opposite when they put their case in that way, mainly because as I look back over events of recent months it seems that a remarkable thing has happened. Both inside and outside the House our oppo-

nents have been proving our case for us. For example, they often argue that the T.U.C. is able to carry out the undertaking it gave in June, 1969 and is capable of intervening when unconstitutional stoppages occur. Hon. Gentlemen opposite accordingly claim that this necessarily complicated legislation is not required.
In the last month the T.U.C. has been wholly impotent to prevent extremely damaging one-day political strikes from being carried out by members unions. How can hon. Gentlemen opposite seriously say that this legislation is not required when even the T.U.C. is unable to settle these unconstitutional disputes?

Mr. James Hamilton: The T.U.C. held a congress last week at Croydon. The hon. Gentleman will be aware of the two unions concerned, though only one was involved in the strike. How many demarcation disputes have occurred since the T.U.C. decided to intervene in these disputes?

Mr. Waddington: I cannot give the figures offhand, but I return to my central theme, which is vital in considering the points made by hon. Gentlemen opposite about the closed shop, which they support as a matter of principle. They consider it essential for union solidarity and to ensure, as the hon. Member for Salford, West (Mr. Orme) said, that the interests of both unions and their members are sufficiently safeguarded.
The other day we had a one-day strike. It was called by the A.E.F. Many people who were working in closed shop conditions had to take part in that strike because it was called by their union. Is it not absurd that people who, as recently as June of last year, voted Conservative, principally because they wanted legislation of this sort, were compelled, because of the operation of the closed shop, to take part in a strike of that kind?

Mr. Arthur Lewis: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the mythical trade unionists of whom he speaks could not have known when they voted Conservative last June that this Bill would be introduced? Perhaps they voted Tory because they wrongly believed that the Prime Minister would, among other things, reduce prices at a stroke.

Mr. Waddington: The hon. Gentleman is not meeting my point. We went over


this ground the other night, when he was gracious enough to retract that phrase about the mythical character. I am telling lion. Gentlemen and my hon. Friends that a man has told me—and I have no reason to doubt him—that he voted for me in June last year because he believed that it was necessary to have an Act of Parliament which would establish a new legal framework for industrial relations. I am sure that hon. Members opposite will be fair enough to accept, for the purpose of argument, that I am telling the truth when I say that.
If I am right, they must accept that it is a rather absurd result of the operation of the closed shop that a man may be forced to go on strike, not in pursuit of a wage claim but in furtherance of a political policy and demand for which he has no sympathy whatever. The events of the last month, far from helping hon. Members to make out their case against the Bill, have added enormous weight to our claim that we should not allow the closed shop to continue as it has continued so far.

Mr. Ted Fletcher: Does the hon. Gentleman appreciate that when a man joins a trade union he signs a membership form saying that he agrees to abide by the rules of the union, and he is given a copy of the rules. Those rules set out certain circumstances in which district committees or executive councils can call on the members to follow their lead in industrial action. That is what a discriplined trade union does. That being so, does not the hon. Gentleman think that his mythical Tory supporter, having agreed to accept the union's rules, is morally bound to abide by them?

Mr. Waddington: The hon. Member has not followed my argument at all. I was posing the case of the closed shop, and the gentleman to whom I was referring never voluntarily accepted membership of the union but was compelled to become a member because there was a closed shop and he could not otherwise get a job. It is bad enough when a man has to join a trade union when he does not wish to do so, but it is very much worse, and the evil is very much worse, when a trade union which he did not wish to join takes him out on strike, not in pursuance of a wage claim but in

furtherance of some political policy with which he has no sympathy at all. I should not think that anyone here would accept the validity of that argument.
I have played some part in the various stages of the Measure, and I thought that the saddest occasion of all was when we heard hon. Members opposite solemnly asserting the right to picket a person's home. I can only again express the blank astonishment I felt when that argument was advanced. I appreciate all that is said, and said with a great deal of emotion, by hon. Gentlemen about the need to maintain the strength of the trade union movement. I understand their strong feelings when they talk about solidarity. But I believe that we are indeed living in a queer world if this fetish of solidarity is to be taken so far that a man's privacy is to be invaded, and he is to have thrust into his ears and down his mouth, at the doorway of his own home, the political opinions as well as the industrial opinions of people working at the same place as himself.
I very much doubt whether people outside the House have understood many of the arguments advanced in the Chamber. We seem so often to have been led astray for one reason or another. I am sure that no one outside understands what all last night's junketing in the Division Lobbies was about, and I do not think that it is very profitable to pursue that matter further.
I want to express the reasons why the Bill can make a useful contribution. The enactment of this legislation will in itself do good. Its passing will prove to others our determination to try to avoid wholly unnecessary strikes which have been so damaging to our interests in recent years, especially our export interests. We cannot over-emphasise the importance of convincing people overseas that we are at last trying to put our house in order.
I met a man the other night who was in the furnishing fabric trade. He had gone on a protracted tour round the Continent of Europe, trying very hard to sell his products, which, in the past, he had had no difficulty in selling in this country and abroad. Time and again he was confronted by potential customers who
told him that the reputation of British industry on delivery dates was so bad that they were not prepared to place an order with him. They said this to


him in spite of his protestations that he had never been late on a delivery date in his life.
We have to face the fact that people are expecting us to put our house in order and to tackle the problem of small unofficial strikes which cause an immense amount of dislocation, quite out of scale to the problem which they are supposed to be solving.
From the point of view of workpeople, I feel very strongly that, whereas harsh words have necessarily and inevitably been used during the various stages of the Bill, the time has now come for restraint. If hon. Members opposite listen to what I am saying, they will understand how realistic I am being when I say that we look for restraint and common sense in the operation of the Bill by employers, and we look for, and I am sure that we shall find, restraint by the unions involved, which, in spite of their threats in recent days, will not attack those who, for instance, refused to join in these recent strikes. The time has come for a healing of some of the wounds. I shall try to help in that process.

8.43 p.m.

Mr. Arthur Lewis: I know that you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, want to allow as many hon. Members as possible to speak. Therefore, to save time, I shall not give way.
It is amazing to hear the hon. Member for Nelson and Colne (Mr. Waddington) shedding these crocodile tears when we realise what has happened. I will not go into the details of the Bill because on Third Reading one should not deal with them. We should supposedly have dealt with them during Committee and Report stage.
I want to adduce reasons why we should oppose the Third Reading. To start with, we oppose it on the grounds which the hon. Gentleman touched upon, the so-called democratic procedure. Trade unions have been attacked for their alleged lack of democratic procedure. We have had no democratic procedure with regard to the Bill. It has been the usual custom and practice for the Government of the day, when introducing legislation, to introduce the Bill and to consult the persons and organisations mainly concerned. On this Bill the Gov-

ernment did no such thing. They never consulted the trade union movement. They bring in the Bill; we have the Second Reading; and within two days of the commencement of the Committee stage, when the Government said that there had been no filibustering or waste of time, immediately the guillotine is imposed against the wish not only of this side of the House but also of the other side.
Then we had the farce of the Committee stage followed by the so-called Report stage, when page after page of the Bill was not discussed and when pages of Government Amendments were not considered. The culmination came last night when the Government themselves had to withdraw several of their own Amendments since there was not sufficient time to get through the number of Divisions which would have been necessary.
After all that, the Government have the audacity to tell trade unionists how undemocratic they are and how they do not allow their members to operate proper, democratic procedures—

Mr. Dudley Smith: rose—

Mr. Lewis: No, I will not give way. A number of my hon. Friends wish to speak. After all, the Government imposed the guillotine. I did not. I voted against it. We are still under a guillotine. If the Government wanted to show their fairness and their belief in freedom and democracy, they should not have imposed the guillotine. I do not see why I should give way to an hon. Gentleman opposite and so deprive my hon. Friends of the opportunity to intervene in the debate.
Now we find the Bill in its Third Reading stage. The Government will win the day, of course, and the Bill will he sent to that great, democratically-elected "other place", not one of whose members has ever been elected or been responsible to anyone. Unlike us, the elected representatives of the people, who were not allowed to discuss these matters, they will have full, free and long-discussions with no guillotine. They will be able to say at length just what they like.
The other place will make Amendments, and those Amendments will come


back to us. If the Government reintroduce the Amendments that they did not move last night, without doubt those Lords Amendments will be guillotined when they come to us for consideration. In that way, we shall have imposed upon us, the
democratically-elected representatives of the people, the wishes and desires of another place. Then the Government have the audacity to tell the unions that they carry out undemocratic procedures. What a lot of hyprocrisy and dishonesty on the part of this crooked Government—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh!"] They are crooked, because they cannot honestly say these things when they deprive the elected representatives of the people of their democratic rights.
Leaving aside what is in the Bill and whether it is good, bad or indifferent, the Government's action is an attack on democracy. With the active connivance and support of the Government, the will of this House is being thwarted by a
non-democratic, reactionary body. We have no means of doing anything about it. When the hon. Member for Nelson and Colne goes back to the person who complained about the lack of democracy in his trade union, perhaps the hon. Gentleman will point out to him and to trade unionists generally that a member of any union can go from the workshop floor right to the top of his executive council through democratic procedures, questioning and querying every point about which he has doubts.
I believe that I am the only hon. Member who can boast of being a member of three trade unions. The individual members of each of those unions can go through the democratic appeal procedure. But hon. Members in the House cannot do so. My hon. Friends and I are not allowed to debate the important issues arising from the Bill. We shall not be allowed to discuss the Lords Amendments.
For those reasons, and not merely for what is in the Bill, I shall certainly vote with gusto this evening as I have done throughout the proceedings on the Bill.

8.50 p.m.

Mr. Adam Butler: I follow the hon. Member for West Ham, North (Mr. Arthur Lewis) with a little trepidation, but I shall have the cour-

tesy to give way if anybody should wish to intervene during my speech.
I wish to record my view that the time allotted by the Government to debate the Bill, both in Committee and on Report, has been adequate for the purpose. But the use of the time allotted by hon. Members opposite has been such that, to my regret and that of many others, some Clauses and Amendments have not been debated. I suggest that in future debates hon. Members opposite should try to follow the valiant if unsuccessful effort of the right hon. Member for Blackburn (Mrs. Castle) in a recent Radio 4 programme. If hon. Members opposite had spoken for "just a minute" on the subjects that they were discussing, without repetition and without deviation, it would have helped our debates.

Mr. Dudley Smith: The point that I was endeavouring to make to the hon. Member for West Ham, North (Mr. Arthur Lewis) was that despite all the protestations about waste of time and lack of time we had about six hours' debate on the comparatively narrow picketing point.

Mr. Butler: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for reminding us of that.

Mr. Arthur Lewis: Tell the shop stewards that it is narrow!

Mr. Butler: Does the hon. Member for West Ham, North wish to intervene?

Mr. Lewis: I was replying to the Under-Secretary, who said that the picketing point was a narrow one. Hon. Members opposite have no idea of the degree of importance attached to this by shop stewards. To them it is a fundamental right. It is not a small point.

Mr. Butler: The Committee debated the matter for five hours, and hon. Members opposite showed themselves to be quite at a loss to understand the Clause. They were corrected after that time by my hon. and learned Friend the Solicitor-General.
I want to concentrate on the voluntary aspects of the Government's proposals for industrial relations reform. Two phrases have been bandied about. I was a little surprised that the right hon. Lady did not use the phrase "legal straitjacket" today, because she and her hon. Friends have used it from time to time.


Hon. Members on this side of the House have used the phrase "framework of law"; and, as my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State said, we are proposing a set of fair and reasonable rules.
That is one good example of the two points of view that exist among hon. Members. I suggest that both the House and the country should decide which is correct. A straitjacket makes a man powerless. He can be controlled and directed at will, and can do little voluntarily. A framework of law provides a periphery and generally curtails peripheral and extreme action, and a set of rules points the way.
I ask which is the fairer description of the Bill. It is no empty claim or boast on our part that the Bill provides a framework of law within which can take place the voluntary processes of industrial relations—the individual relationships between boss and worker—with new and very suitable safeguards for the individual, and the process of free, responsible bargaining over wages and conditions without interference by the Government.
There is of course some compulsion. There is compulsion on the employer in regard to the greater length of notice he is now required to give to the individual, in regard to the compensation which he is required to pay for unfair dismissal, and the information which he is required to give to individual employees. There is some compulsion in the employer's relations with unions. For the first time, he is bound to recognise a union if a majority wish it so. Those are points at which compulsion applies with which, I am sure, hon. Members opposite would agree.
Slightly more contentious, perhaps, is the compulsion on a union or employer to accept a procedure agreement, that is, an agreement on procedures to be followed in the event of a dispute. It is generally agreed that the absence of a proper procedure is one of the causes of unrest and strikes in industry. Is it immoral, therefore, to compel procedures to be followed before the strike weapon is used? This is a perfect example—I have said it before, but I am not ashamed to repeat it—of how the Commission on Industrial Relations is required to get the parties to agree voluntarily

to accept a disputes procedure before finally, if they will not agree, an order is made.
The right hon. Lady the Member for Blackburn said that shop stewards should be completely free to act as they have in the past. One point in this context is how the Bill seeks to ensure that they are, or are not, authorised to call strikes. I understand that in the rules of the A.E.F., for example, a shop steward is required already to refer back to the district committee before calling a strike. That is the sort of point the Registrar will be looking for in the rules of unions, to make clear what the shop steward's responsibility is. If I am right in my reference to the rules of the A.E.F.—there has been no suggestion that I am not—that is one example of how the shop steward is already subject to a limitation on his freedom under the rules.
In the case of emergency situations, the Bill provides for compulsory ballots and for the cooling-off period. But these are compulsions within the law. The courts cannot order any individual back to work. Under our Bill, unlike the right hon. Lady's Bill, the Secretary of State cannot take direct arbitrary action. Indeed, in the case of ballots, it lays down that he must have reason to believe that 50 per cent. of the workers are against a particular dispute before taking it further, and he then has to justify the case with the parties concerned before the N.I.R.C. Is it unreasonable to use the democratic device of a ballot in a grave or emergency strike situation?
There is no compulsion on a union to have to have provision for a strike ballot, though I should welcome that, as I said last night. There is no compulsion, so here again is the voluntary process at work.
On the question of union rules, we have time and time again the emotive cry about the need for a State licence to operate.

Mr. Orme: Hear, hear.

Mr. Butler: This cannot stand up under even the most cursory examination of Clause 61 and Schedule 3. I will not bore the House with all the points that the Registrar is required to look for in union rules, but going through quickly we see that they include the election of


a governing body, the appointment of officers, rules on membership and the giving up of membership, the calling of ballots, and procedure for inquiring into complaints. All those things are already in the rule book of most trade unions in this country. Therefore, there can be no complaint, no reasonable, rational complaint, that unions will be required to have rules that meet these requirements.
Continuing registration of a union will be voluntary, as we made quite clear last night, but I suggest that it will become accepted, because of the risks run by a union that does not register. The enforceability of substantive agreements will also be voluntary, but I see this developing because of the benefits to be gained. Legal action, which has been a matter of concern to the House, if it is taken under the Bill will also be voluntary; that is to say, there is no compulsion on the union or employer to seek compensation for damages resulting from an unfair industrial practice by the other party.
A party will carefully weigh up all the consequences of such action, and in the event will rarely act. I say that with confidence because I believe that experience in America will be repeated here. Mr. Pat Lowry, who has been used as a witness for both the prosecution and the defence, and, therefore, may be considered to be a reputable witness, showed quite clearly that experience in America and his own opinion was that union and employer rarely, if ever, took the other to court, but that the threat of possible legal action was enough to bring the two parties together to end their dispute. That is a very good example of the law changing men's attitudes without having to be brought into effect.

Mr. James Thin: Will the hon. Gentleman try to explain why, with these improved attitudes, the United States suffers about 12 times as many working days lost per 100,000 of the population as we do?

Mr. Butler: If the hon. Gentleman had been here in Committee he would have heard this matter debated many times.

Mr. Tinn: I was here more often than the hon. Gentleman.

Mr. Butler: The figures for 1970 were not 12 times ours but three or four times.

Mr. Ted Fletcher: Five times.

Mr. Butler: But strikes in the United States generally take place at the end of a two- or three-year wage agreement, whereas the scourge of our industrial situation is that about 95 per cent. of them are unconsitutional, unofficial, taking place at any moment.
I nearly interrupted my hon. Friend the Member for Nelson and Colne (Mr. Waddington) to remind him of the situation in the automobile industry in this country last year, when, because of unofficial strikes occurring at a moment's notice, the Department has estimated that production losses amounted to one car in seven. That is the cost of strikes to this country. In America stocks are built up, and production loss as a result of strikes at the end of the three-year wage agreements are, therefore comparatively small.
I have only given a few examples of where the voluntary side of the Bill comes in but I think that these are sufficiently encouraging. Our proposals give rein to voluntary activities within industry. But I repeat what I have said on many occasions—that the onus still within the Bill is on management. For the right hon. Lady to suggest that my right hon. Friend has never put forward this idea before is total nonsense. If she had been interested in what the Conservative Party has been saying about industrial relations, she would have studied what my right hon. Friend had said at party conferences and in many speeches. He has made the point time and again that the onus of industrial relations is on managements and unions and individual workers, but primarily on managements, because they are the ones who take the decisions.
I remind the Opposition of the code of industrial practice which my right hon. Friend will be introducing within the next month or two. I hope that my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State will remind my right hon. Friend of my remarks last night—that we are looking for greater debate than at one time seemed possible on the code.
I concude by talking about one freedom, or so-called freedom or right, which the Bill could be said to be taking away from the trade union movement. This is perhaps the crux of the matter. It is the total freedom to behave irresponsibly, to indulge in the sort of selfish behaviour which is threatening to bankrupt some of our industries. Most trade unions behave responsibly. The behaviour I have described in the work of minorities. But unions are still free to take action with only the interests of their members at heart. The only freedom they are forfeiting under the Bill is that freedom which must be and is gladly given up by individuals and organisations alike to allow them to live together in a free but civilised and democratic society.

9.8 p.m.

Mr. A. E. P. Duffy: If the hon. Member for Bosworth (Mr. Adam Butler) did not go quite as far as the hon. and learned Member for Southport (Mr. Percival) in claiming the Bill to be remarkable by any simple test, at least he was at one with all his hon. Friends who have taken part in the debate in an uncritical acceptance of the Bill. We find that in itself disturbing. Inevitably, I shall go a little beyond that and apply one reasonable test of authority to the Bill.
Intellectually, I think that this is a disgraceful Bill. It not merely ignores the findings of the Royal Commission, which considered the subject for several years and brought to its labours all the most renowned, important and best qualified authorities on industrial relations; it has not brought to its own defence any analysis of its own. It is difficult, therefore, for us to respect the Bill and to avoid the suspicion that the Government are not concerned with love of collective bargaining but rather with the imposition, above all, of a complex legal system of penalties, including, ultimately and inevitably, imprisonment of workers and trade unionists over strikes and other forms of industrial unrest. If that were not enough, the Government even have the impertinence so to gear the trade unions to their intentions as to try to make them industry's policemen.
That of itself, however, is an indication of how little even the Ministers handling the Bill understand the essential

nature of trade unionism, how easily they have overlooked that trade union leaders are officials of democratic organisations in which the seat of power has always been most close to the membership, and in no union more than that of my hon. Friend the Member for Salford, West (Mr. Orme).
The Bill is likely to widen the gulf between the leadership and the shop floor, despite the repeated claims of the Secretary of State that he is seeking to strengthen the authority of the trade unions. A trade union leader who has to spend much of his time reminding his membership, and particularly the shop stewards, of the possible legal consequences of their actions is hardly likely to inspire confidence.
My own union, the General and Municipal Workers' Union, along with many others, in recent years has devoted much time and experience to improving its own structure and communications, and it has invited some leading authorities, such as those to whom I made a passing reference, eminent authorities like Professor Hugh Clegg, to look at its structures and to publish their findings in official journals. The unions are prepared to look at themselves, to take advice and to modernise themselves, if only they are allowed to do so in a decent and democratic way.
My union believes that much of this work, which has gone on in all corners of
trade union structure in the country, for the most part unrecorded, unpublished and unpraised, will be undermined by the Bill. What the Secretary of State demonstrably does not understand is that it is in the nature of trade unionism that authority should therefore be derived from those below. Trade union leaders can advise, can cajole, can persuade, some more successfully than others, and some unions are more authoritarian than others, but they cannot command. Hon. Members opposite cannot point to any trade union leader who is able to go on pushing his own membership around indefinitely.

Mr. Gower: Scanlon.

Mr. Duffy: The Secretary of State's insistence—and this is a strange thing—on unions being more authoritarian can only divorce them from their rank and file, but at the same time to do the kind of job which we understand he wants


them to do, and which we want them to do, they must be the reverse, that is to say, more influential—but that means being less and not more authoritarian.
He is reminding the mass of trade unionists, and this is especially true of the shop stewards, who emerge from the scrutiny of the Donovan Commission, as the lynchpin of our bargaining system, that according to the Donovan Commission, most managers prepare to deal at this level and with this kind of worker rather than with full-time trade union officers, and most unions now recognise that. Contrary to popular belief, managers find them less militant than their members; this was stated in the Donovan Report. Yet the Bill did not mention them and it will assuredly make it more difficult to recruit them in future.
The Bill provides employers with a particularly neat way to get rid of troublesome shop stewards. We have an unfortunate precedent in my own city of Sheffield. Few shop stewards will feel confident about their legal rights.
At this point we are reminded of what is perhaps the most disturbing feature of the passage of the Bill through the House, that is, the lack of discussion, the lack of opportunity for hon. Members on both sides of the House to explore these areas of doubt and uncertainty, above all, to have a continuing and con-what has been described by my hon. structive discussion. Instead we have Friend the Member for Birmingham, All Saints (Mr. Brian Walden), in a striking speech a few weeks ago, as the hostile polarisation of views which the guillotine procedure made inevitable. Thus it is a hazardous exercise for any of us to try to gauge what the effect of the Bill will be before it is in operation.
This might seem to be a step down from the position taken by some of my hon. Friends. Not at all. It is just as disquieting as their indictment of the Bill, just as depressing as their forecasts. It depends, as hon. Gentlemen have recognised, on how employers decide to operate it. What is probable, I suggest, is that the hopes of reform have now been set back for many years and that all too many employers will use this Bill as an authoritarian crutch instead of getting down to finding out why their industrial relations are poor, which was the

challenge, among others, of the Donovan Commission. Instead of doing this, they will turn to the law.
At this point I should like to go into a little detail on the rôle of the National Industrial Relations Court because we have not had an opportunity to do so in Committee. Those managers and trade unionists who genuinely wish to improve industrial relations may find, when they look at the Court, that there is little hope there. Its basic aim is not reform but rather to see that the law bites. As such the Court can hardly inspire confidence among trade unionists. The Minister laid great stress on the informality of the N.I.R.C. and the industrial tribunals which will operate below it in the districts, but the law has its own rationale. It will be hard to prevent lawyers' arguments from dominating courts which have lawyers and, in the case of the N.I.R.C., judges as chairmen.
The Consultative Document also proposed that the Court should include people with
specialist and practical experience of industrial relations on both sides of industry.
It is noteworthy that in the Bill the requirement
on both sides of industry 
has now been dropped. The Government should not be surprised if the N.I.R.C., which consists solely of judges, employers and Conservative nominees—like those who produce the Black Books—is regarded as little more than a kangaroo court.
I am not in any way impugning the impartiality of the judiciary. Its impartiality is a byword, but it must be realised that no judge can go beyond the law. Mr. Justice Caufield in the recent secrets case was a notable exception, the first in 50 years.
Unfair industrial practices are defined by statute under the Bill. A judge will not be free to look at industrial practice and to decide himself whether it is unfair. He has to identify certain situations defined in the Bill and apostrophise them as unfair industrial practices. The independence of the judges therefore gives no security under the Bill, no guarantee of fairness between one section of the community and another. The judge is brought in merely to provide an aura of respectability, to lend himself


to the condemnation of a union officer who has to show that his conduct was fair.
If the Statute says that it is unfair, then the judge must echo the statute. A similar situation arises with the Restrictive Trade Practices Act, 1956, when any restriction is against the public interest if it cannot get through one of the "gateways", one of the exemptions, of Section 21. Judges are powerless, for all their known impartiality, to declare something to be in the public interest when the Act says that it is against the public interest.
The situation in the Industrial Court will be the same under this Bill. The Restrictive Practices Court has an almost unbroken line of convictions until now. Only a minute percentage of respondents even bother to offer a defence or oppose condemnation. The same will presumably happen in the Industrial Court. A judge may hold the scales fairly, but he can do nothing about the lead weight which the Government have put in one pan. The judge will, in addition, be expected to take note of a politically drawn code of conduct—Clause 4—even if he is not bound by it, as he is bound by the definition of an unfair industrial practice.
So far, I have looked at the proposed rules of the court on the assumption that the judiciary is impartial. Impartiality has two aspects. It does not only mean willingness to allow all to be said in court which relevance and the rules of evidence permit, and in such a way it is able to carry its full weight. It also means an ability to bring to decision making a mind which can rise above all considerations of personal conviction and private feeling. The first type of impartiality I have conceded—and conceded to the detriment of trade unionists. The second type of impartiality is much rarer than is generally supposed, and its rareness lies at the very core of the problem posed by this Bill.
How are working men to view the judicial function proposed by this Bill as other than a political one? How are they to construe that function as other than protection for the employer? It has ever been the experience of working men of this country in the courts—[Interruption.]—Yes, that is how this party came into being. This is what triggered off that

development in 1901 which led to the Labour Representation Committee from which the modern Labour Party emerged in 1906. Those working men may have been mistaken, but I can only say that if we look at the literature of the times there can be no doubt that that was the prime motivation. They felt that Taff Vale was an unfair decision and that the weights were hopelessly loaded against them, and that the scales of justice were uneven. There is no doubt at all about that.
They also felt at the time, and working men have gone on thinking this ever since, that by the time judges reach the bench they are unlikely to shake off all the habits which their earlier experience formed. At this point, I merely want to explore the very simple truth that people who live differently think differently. So I am already wondering which judges the right hon. Gentleman will recruit for the National Industrial Relations Court.
I have looked at the membership of the High Court since 1954 and tried to decide which of them have some working-class background, which of them have some knowledge of trade unionism, which of them can be identified with a trade unionist father or a trade unionist uncle or a trade unionist brother, or even cousin. I am not impugning the impartiality of the judges. I am merely exploring the truth that people who live differently think differently. So I look at the judges, about 30 or 40, since 1954. I find half-a-dozen who had a grammar school education, but only one of whom, I am reasonably confident—thanks to the help of my hon. Friend the Member for Ince (Mr. McGuire)—also has a working-class background—only one out of 36 or 37 judges.
I look at the education of most of them. This in no way reflects upon them but, inevitably, they were educated at Winchester, St. Paul's, Rugby, Harrow, Downside, Westminster, Lancing, Charterhouse, Shrewsbury, Trinity College and so on. What will these future judges make of a Registrar who could turn out to be a real "hawk"? What will they make of the requirement for the trade union to use its best endeavours in negotiation and, equally, for the employers to bargain seriously? Will they allow for the varying degrees of "best


endeavours" that the exigencies of electioneering within his own organisation may impose on a trade union leader from time to time? Will they interpret the refusal by an employer to reveal his investment plans to trade unions as a refusal to bargain seriously?
Even enlightened managers may find their task more difficult than it was before—

Mr. Gower: rose—

Mr. Duffy: I will not give way. I have spoken for too long, and many other hon. Members wish to speak. It is not only to trade unionists that a large part of the Bill is capable of causing fear and reasonable opposition. The Bill has cast its shadow across the field of industrial relations. The C.I.R. has lost its trade union membership. There is growing apprehension about third party assistance in the settling of disputes. Obviously, the new institutions proposed by the Bill will be hard to staff satisfactorily. It will be even more difficult than usual to find the proper place of the public interest in collective bargaining.
These are just some of the reasons why a moderate trade union like the General and Municipal Workers' Union is as wholly and completely opposed to the Bill as any other trade union, as was borne out at the Croydon conference. That is why their members and other trade unionists in Sheffield have repeatedly applied some simple tests to the Bill. First, will it strengthen trade union organisations? Secondly, will it define and strengthen the role of shop stewards? Thirdly, will it make industrial relations easier? On all counts they cannot arrive at any other answer but, "No".
I believe that they have been helped by the quite remarkable opposition
presented to the Bill by some of my hon. and right hon. Friends, to whom I pay tribute. I doubt whether the House has ever before seen anything like this concerted. purposeful, constructive and therefore successful opposition. Certainly all the evidence in the industrial centres, among the rank and file of the trade unionists, points to this.
There is no doubt among the rank-and-file members that the overall spirit of the Bill is authoritarian, anti-union and restrictive, and that if it becomes

effective it can only weaken their organisations and make the problem of industrial relations more difficult to solve than in the past. They have asked me—and I do so gladly—to oppose the Third Reading of the Bill.

Mr. Deputy Speaker (Miss Harvie Anderson): I hope that hon. Members realise that there are still many Members who wish to speak.

9.27 p.m.

Mr. Raymond Gower: I have listened to this long debate with great interest and I sincerely hope that the hon. Member for Sheffield, Attercliffe (Mr. Duffy) did not imply in his latter remarks that he thought that if he or I were on trial the justice administered to us would depend upon the background of the judge.

Mr. Duffy: I do.

Mr. Gower: Then I warn him that it might well be that if there were such bias a judge who had had a hard time in his early years might be a harder person than one who had been more fortunate. All the history of our courts indicates that that is not the case. Our judges have established a high reputation for their impartiality.

Mr. Duffy: The hon. Member used the word "bias". I was careful not to. I thought that I had made it plain that in my opinion in terms of the quality of justice the background of a judge could not be discounted. As I put it—people who live differently think differently. By saying that I did not impugn the impartiality of our judges. Nevertheless, it ought to remind us that we cannot take their objectivity as absolute. We cannot take that of anyone.

Mr. Gower: I am sorry that the hon. Member—whose views about many things I respect—should have suggested what he has suggested tonight. It was a very unfortunate suggestion.

Mr. Charles Curran (Uxbridge): Is not the argument of the hon. Member for Attercliffe (Mr. Duffy) extraordinary? He is telling us that a judge, because he is a judge, is incapable of understanding the working-class point of view. Would he say that of Lord Donovan who sat in this House as a Labour M.P.?

Mr. Gower: I accept what my hon. Friend says, but I must proceed.
The hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull, North (Mr. McNamara) said that we regarded the Bill as a kind of sesame for success, a magic formula. I thought that my right hon. Friend and several of my hon. Friends made it clear that this is not so. We have not suggested that we regard the Bill as a magic formula. Rather, we would say that here is a mere legislative framework to facilitate the creation of better industrial relations. We believe that with this framework all parties in industry will still need an infinite amount of patience, tolerance and co-operation, and that the art of conciliation will still have to be practised. There will still be a need for perseverance. All these qualities will be required to back up, to enforce, to make possible, some success within the framework of the legislation.
Whereas, on the one hand, some hon. Members opposite are not prepared to look at the Bill with any kind of objectivity, on the other hand, there is a danger that among the supporters of the Bill there are some perhaps who expect too much of it. I think that the Bill has great possibilities, but it would be dangerous for us to set our expectations too high based merely on its contents. However, used wisely and with the qualities to which I have referred, perseverance and the willingness to negotiate, I think that the Bill can help a great deal.
I echo the words of those who have emphasised the importance of the code of practice to which the right hon. Member for Blackburn (Mrs. Castle) referred. Some hon. Gentlemen opposite have complained that this code was not formally presented to the House before the Bill was introduced. I remind hon. Members opposite that the code is not designed, as is the Bill, to be legally binding. It would be inappropriate for it to be binding in that way. If, as my right hon. Friend has now promised, he will lay before the House a draft of the code for a preliminary debate and at a later date will have the revised final code presented in the normal way on the affirmative Resolution procedure, this will go a long way to meet some of the points put to him in Committee.
Hon. Members opposite have suggested that the Bill does nothing to help mem-

bers of trade unions. I suggest that there are some real advantages in the Bill for members of trade unions. It cannot be denied that there is a good deal of importance in the fact that, for the first time, we have set out and codified in legislation the right of an individual to be a member of a trade union. Hon. Gentlemen opposite may say that this was taken for granted, but the fact is that it has not been set out and enacted in this way before.
Whereas we understand the views of those who do not like the consequential Clause, as I describe it—the right not to be forced to join a trade union—we deem this also to be of tremendous importance. It is not that we in any way support those described by Labour hon. Members as blacklegs. We do not support or applaud those who neglect their trade union duties. Rather would we say that we have emphasised throughout that we, too, would like to see a very high proportion of workers as members of trade unions.

Mr. Alex Eadie: The hon. Gentleman is arguing that a great concession has been granted. Many hon. Members on this side are miners' M.P.s. Will he tell me how I can tell the miners that they have the concession of being allowed to join a trade union?

Mr. Gower: I merely said that it was a significant and valuable inclusion in the Bill.

Mr. Adley: The point really concerns the many people working for small companies. I cited the case of a constituent who I
felt sure would not have been put upon by his employer if he had been able to join a trade union. We are trying to help people like that, not those with access to the large unions.

Mr. Gower: My hon. Friend is referring to the principle of the closed shop, which is not really a part of the Bill.

Mr. James Dempsey: Pity.

Mr. Gower: It is not a pity. We understand the arguments which prompted Labour hon. Members to plead for this in their honest and sincere way, but we believe that the dangers of that kind of compulsion are far more serious than the reasons which prompt Labour hon. Members to advocate it.

Mr. Dempsey: I am obliged to the hon. Gentleman for giving way, because he is one member of the opposition whose views I always respect.

Hon. Members: Opposition?

Mr. Dempsey: Opposition to the Labour Party. As one who was secretary of a trade union that worked a closed shop principle, I can tell the hon. Gentleman that the employers were as keen on having the closed shop as the trade unions were, because they found it more efficient, more economic and more suitable to deal with one set of representatives than to negotiate with different groups of people.

Mr. Gower: I accept that it is easier and more convenient, but it is not necessarily more just. Convenience and ease are not necessarily our best guides in matters like this.
We have made one considerable exception. The hon. Member for Putney (Mr. Hugh Jenkins) pleaded for its extension. He said that no thanks at all were due for the exception which may enable Equity and the members of the mercantile marine to succeed in persuading the Registrar that theirs are special cases. I believe that the method used in the Bill is better than giving precise and express exceptions to Equity and the seamen, which would have been wrong. It is far more appropriate that we should have in the Bill, as we have, the special machinery which will enable them to qualify for exemption if they have the necessary qualifications.
Although we oppose the basic principle of the closed shop, I believe that our agency arrangements, which can be introduced, and our exclusion of free riders go a long way to remove the main objections which Labour hon. Members may feel to the course we have taken.
I also welcome the provisions for conscientious objection. The Bill would be poorer if it included no provision for such objection. We were told by the hon. Member for Salford, West (Mr. Orme) and other hon. Members that this has always been done. I am sure that they will welcome the inclusion in the Bill of words providing for something that has always been done. If it has always been done, I cannot understand

why hon. Gentlemen opposite should wish to vote against it.
Extremely valuable to trade unionists arc the provisions in Clauses 20 to 30 dealing with unfair dismissal. Hon. Gentlemen opposite have been amiss in not giving fairer recognition to these provisions. If, as they say, legislation on this subject introduced by us makes them suspicious, they should welcome the inclusion of these provisions, under the compensation arrangements of which justice will be provided in many cases of dismissal which, in the past, have not been included in any legislation.
The Bill is also important because it makes possible the enforcement of agreements. I accept that no similar legislation has been passed before, but as Britain is facing such difficulties in competitive world markets, from the failure to deliver goods on time and from the non-honouring of agreements, it is vital for our national welfare that there should be provisions for the enforcement of agreements which are freely entered into.
An hon. Gentleman opposite suggested earlier that in no other sector of our human relations are there provisions for agreements to be enforced. That is completely wrong. Almost every contract into which the citizen enters is enforceable by law. There is, therefore, a serious defect in this part of our law, and the Bill will make agreements which are freely entered into enforceable.

Mrs. Castle: Is the hon. Gentleman in favour of agreements which have not been freely entered into being legally enforceable?

Mr. Gower: The right hon. Lady may object to the way in which this has been done in the Bill, but the parties to an agreement in industry will know from the commencement—[Interruption.] I hope that hon. Gentlemen opposite will allow me to answer the right hon. Lady's question.
If they enter into enforceable agreements, the presumption is that they wish to keep to them. The parties will know at the commencement that, when they enter into an agreement, it will be enforceable, the presumption being that there will be benefits commensurate with that fact. If those benefits do not exist, then presumably they will enter into,


and say they are entering into, a non-enforceable agreement. It seems absurd to many people that agreements of this nature should not be enforceable, and I believe that this is a strength and not a weakness of the Bill.
The registration provisions do not impose an unfair obligation on unions. The appointment of a Registrar has been criticised and it has been suggested that he may act unfairly towards unions. I cannot believe that he would, and there is no precedent in comparable legislation which suggests that he would. Where registrars have been appointed under other legislation, they have acted with the same impartiality as other officers of the court.
Whatever hon. Members opposite may say, there are no criminal sanctions here, and it has been very unfair and unworthy of them to have gone up and down the country suggesting that there are. The basis is civil enforcement, and only in the most extraordinary conditions of utter disregard by an individual of a court order can anything like a criminal sanction be enforced. The Measure is not of the penal nature that the party opposite intended to bring forward. We have brought it forward in good faith. It has its limitations, it is not perfect, but I believe that it can give our industry an opportunity to make a better show in the next few years than it has been able to make in the past.

9.46 p.m.

Mr. James Hamilton: Let me at once make it utterly clear that because many other hon. Members wish to take part in the debate I do not intend to give way at all, and I promise also to set a good example by sitting down as quickly as I possibly can.
A lot has been said about the T.U.C.'s inactivity and lack of competence in relation to disputes. It is a well-known fact that not very long ago, by persuasion and example, my right lion. Friend the Member for Blackburn (Mrs. Castle) got the trade union movement for the first time to accept some responsibility, and that, since then, many problems, particularly demarcation problems, have disappeared like snow off a dyke. Many trade unions have amalgamated, and as a result there is a desire to co-operate and a sense of responsibility.
Only a few weeks ago we had one of the finest demonstrations ever seen in London which proved conclusively that the trade union movement was capable of leadership of the very highest order. No one who took part in the demonstration was arrested, though no doubt many people of the opposite political persuasion were rubbing their hands and smacking their lips in anticipation of the movement bringing itself into disrepute. Those people were sadly disillusioned.
Employers must accept their share of responsibility for the allegations and libellous statements made against our movement during the course of the Bill. One hon. Member has told us that one of his constituents said that he had been unfairly dismissed. That man was not dismissed because he was not a member of a trade union or because he was not prepared to become a member of a closed shop. He was in trouble because he did not have a trade union to negotiate for him. This legislation should have been directed mainly against recalcitrant employers, and not against the trade union movement. Therefore, I put this point to him and to the House: many agreements at national level are freely negotiated over a long and difficult period. In the engineering industry, from the moment that negotiations are started, they invariably do not reach a conclusion until at least 14 months have elapsed.
I do not want to refer to procedural agreements in operation at present, because it is conceded by both sides of the House that the York Agreement is one of the worst agreements ever entered into by the employers and the trade union movement. Consequently, negotiations have once again been taking place with the engineering employers and the appropriate trade unions over a long and difficult period.
Last night I watched a television programme and it was rather strange that the person whom they all seemed to want to get after was Mr. Hugh Scanlon. They were afforded the opportunity to get after him. He was in the dock for exactly two minutes because they were not prepared to give him the opportunity to put the case which he can put for his union. They said, "Are you prepared to negotiate a new procedural agreement?", and he answered, quite firmly, "Yes".
That agreement is in process of finalisation. But the trade unions fall down with the employers because the unions are not prepared to be coerced in any way to sign an agreement knowing perfectly well that once the Bill is on the Statute Book, there is a possibility that they could find themselves in the courts. Let us not forget that the engineering industry covers three and a quarter million workers and it is our biggest exporter. Obviously we have to take cognisance of that industry and the trade unions in it.
On the closed shop, a great deal of the talk has been in relation to the free rider. As a trade union official before I came to the House, I say categorically that we have always had the conscience clause in relation to the operation of the closed shop. In the North of Scotland we have what are called the Closed Brethren. It is against their religious beliefs under any circumstances that they should join a political party or a trade union. They are allowed to pay their money to a charitable organisation. On the basis of what has been happening over the years, therefore, nothing new has been given to us in this legislation.
The House should also reflect on the congress held at Croydon only last week. Those of us who had the opportunity of watching that conference on television will readily concede, with no bias, that all the contributions, without exception, were statesmanlike speeches made by the general secretaries and presidents of all the unions in this country. Every one of the sneakers made it indelibly clear—some of them are deemed to be Left wingers, some are deemed to be middle-of-the-roaders and others are deemed to be Right wingers—that they were all united in opposition to this Measure.
Those of us who have travelled throughout the country, speaking at factory meetings, branch meetings and at demonstrations, find that the whole of the trade union movement is united in opposition to the Bill. If the Government believe that once the Bill is on the Statute Book it will be the panacea for industrial relations, they are living in cloud-cuckoo-land.
The trade union movement is united as never before in its determination to

fight this legislation. Once this Measure goes on the Statute Book, the point of view of those who have argued consistently and persistently that only the trade union movement can solve the problems of workers in industry will be proved conclusively.
I have always held to the view that the General Council of the T.U.C. must accept greater responsibility. Following the efforts of the last Government, the T.U.C. was persuaded to accept some of it. Now it must take a further step and become an authoritative body. The leadership given by the T.U.C. at the demonstration to which I have referred and at the Croydon conference has proved its ability to lead the country's workers. On that basis, along with my hon. Friends, I make no apology for the fight waged yesterday and in the early hours of this morning to try to prevent the Bill going on the Statute Book. As a responsible Opposition, it is our duty to do all that we can to stop this legislation.
We are now in a situation where, because of the guillotine, this Measure will go to another place for consideration by a non-elected body of people who will have an opportunity, unlike hon. Members of this House, of discussing the matter in detail. The new Clauses and Government Amendments which we had no opportunity to discuss will go to the other place, which will then decide whether they should be included in the Bill.
I willingly cast my vote against the Bill. I shall at all times put forward a view against it. I will demonstrate, remonstrate with and lead members of my own union against it.
When one considers the performance of the present Administration, it will not be long before my right hon. and hon. Friends resume office. When we do, I hope that the offending Clauses will be repealed, even if the whole Measure is not.

9.58 p.m.

Mr. Geoffrey Finsberg: I shall not pursue the flights of fancy of the hon. Member for Bothwell (Mr. James Hamilton). If he imagines that his colleages will be elected to govern the country before at least another four years


have elapsed, one wonders where he can have been over the past few months.
Tonight, we are nearing the end of the road on the Industrial Relations Bill. It is significant that, last night, only about two-thirds of the Opposition could be mustered to vote in the Division Lobby. Theirs were legitimate tactics, but I suggest that hon. Members opposite put their convenience before their principles.
Two claims have been made in this debate. The first is that the Bill will bring the unions into a proper relationship with the industries in which they operate. It will bring them up to date in the same way as companies have been. For the first time, it gives legal backing for an individual to have a right to protection against unfair dismissal, it provides for a vital cooling-off period and, in certain circumstances, for a secret ballot—both of them if the court agrees. Whatever may be said by the hon. Member for Cornwall, North (Mr. Pardoe)—who, like his Liberal colleagues, appears to have melted away—I am convinced that the bulk of the Post Office workers would not have struck if they had had a secret ballot.
The claim has also been made tonight that the Labour Party is the political arm of the trade union movement. If that is so it is certainly no strong left arm. As we have been told time and time again by hon. Members opposite, it was their policy to fight the Bill word by word, comma by comma, and line by line. All I would say to them is that if the trade union movement is satisfied with what it has got out of the party opposite it is time that it brought itself up to date and divorced itself from a backward, reactionary political party like the Labour Party and, like the trade union movement in Ameria, allied itself to no party and got the best it could get out of whichever Government were in power.
The hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull, North (Mr. McNamara) and I were both here when the Bill received its Second Reading, and we heard what my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister said, but it seems that we heard two entirely different speeches. I know what the Prime Minister meant, but the hon. Member clearly must have taken a different view. He spoke about the persons to be appointed to the new court, and said how terrible it was that the Secre-

tary of State had the right to remove members if they were unfit. I am a justice of the peace and I can be removed at any time by the Lord Chancellor if he considers me unfit. I do not kick against that.

Mr. McNamara: I refer the hon. Member to the Prime Minister's Second Reading speech. On his other point, the National Industrial Relations Court is to be a superior court—part of the High Court. Puisne judges can be dismissed only by agreement of both Houses of Parliament petitioning to the Queen, but lay assessors can be dismissed, if necessary—putting it at its worst—at the whim of the Secretary of State or the Lord Chancellor. That is the point.

Mr. Finsberg: The hon. Member for Putney (Mr. Hugh Jenkins) shares the view of many hon. Members opposite that if a man is not reappointed to a post he is dismissed. As anyone who has anything to do with contracts knows, that is not true. Because Professor Clegg was not reappointed at the end of his term it did not mean that he was dismissed.
The only speeches from hon. Members opposite that I have respected in this debate have come from the hon. Members for Liverpool, Walton (Mr. Heifer) and Salford, West (Mr. Orme), both of whom have been passionately sincere and consistent in their opposition, whether the Measure came from the right hon. Member for Blackburn (Mrs. Castle) when her Government were in power or now, when my Government are putting these proposals forward.
I have had experience of dealing with conscience clauses. I have sat as a minority member on a local government committee when the Labour Party that was in control brought in the closed shop principle. I have seen a young nursery nurse aged 19 in tears because she had to say, in front of the committee, that she was conscientiously opposed to joining a union. The Bill will give such people as her a statutory right, so that they will not have to appear before any sort of inquisition.
I have had 54 letters from actors in my constituency on the subject of Equity. I imagine that Hampstead is somewhat heavily populated with actors. The provision that my right hon. Friend has


now inserted in the Bill provides the satisfactory cover for which many actors have asked in my interviews with them and their letters to me.

Mr. Hugh Jenkins: rose—

Mr. Finsberg: No, I have not the time.
Again, the problem of procedure agreements raised by the hon. Member for Salford, West is not so difficult as he maintains. I have been responsible for negotiating procedure agreements with a major trade union, involving about 10,000 people, and I have never found any difficulty in agreeing virtually overnight a sensible and practical agreement. The hon. Member for Gloucestershire, West (Mr. Loughlin) knows the union to which I refer.
The country is behind us on this Measure. No Measure has ever been so well rehearsed in public as this. It was rehearsed as "Fair Deal at Work", and it was put to the country and discussed for about three years. The Trades Union Congress and the Labour Party took little notice of it, for three reasons. First, they did not think that we should win the election. Second, they thought that, if we did, we should not introduce the Bill. Third, they thought that, if we did introduce the Bill, we could be knocked over in the same way as the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition and the right hon. Lady the Member for Blackburn were by the trade union movement. But we are made of different stuff.
There is much in the Bill which will transform industrial relations from the mid-1800s to the end of the twentieth century. I welcome the Bill, for it will do far more than bring industrial relations up to date. It will be accepted. N.A.L.G.O. will register. Hon. Members opposite know that, when N.A.L.G.O. register, other unions will follow, and the T. and G.W.U. will be forced to eat its words.
The Bill will not stop strikes overnight. We have never claimed that it would. What it will do is provide a framework within which industrial relations can operate, not in the interests of the trade union movement, not in the interests of employers, but in the national interest.

10.7 p.m.

Miss Bernadette Devlin: I realise that many other hon. Members wish to speak, but that is not my main reason for keeping my speech short. My main reason for being brief is partly the reason for my not having been here yesterday. Despite the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition, I do not consider myself accursed for having been abed last night. Indeed, many of us still think the right hon. Gentleman accursed for attempting to put "In Place of Strife" through the House, and we have not forgotten it.
I intend to be brief because there are some things which do not brook discussion with the enemy, and this Industrial Relations Bill is one of them. There is much more room for action than for talking with right hon. Gentlemen opposite. Action rather than talking will show where true democracy and power lie in this country.
Right hon. Members opposite do not seem to understand the nature of trade unions. They do not seem to understand the nature of politics. They seem to think that the right to do and the right not to do are exactly the same, and that people's rights and their feelings are controlled by laws passed in this House, or in other similar establishments elsewhere in the world.
Let them remember that the trade unions and the working class of this country did not reach the stage which they have reached through laws passed by Tory Governments or by any Government. The eight-hour day, the 40-hour week, the end of child labour, and the like, were not won through arbitration. They were won through the only final weapon of the working class, the strike. [Interruption.] Hon. Members opposite seem to think that their inane and inarticulate mutterings can have some effect on what I am saying. I am always surprised by their inarticulateness. If they represent the employing class, if they are their friends, we have little fear for the ultimate success of the working class. That is the crux of the matter. They think that they have the power to legislate the rules of the game.
It is time right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite realised what the game is. We do not want to live in peaceful coexistence with our masters.


The trade union was formed to protect the working class against the very concept of masters and owners. Right hon. Gentlemen opposite think the trade unions are too strong—too strong, when still only 15 per cent. of the so-called private wealth of this country is in the hands of the people, and when 100 per cent. of the wealth of this country is produced by the working class. The unions will be strong enough only when 100 per cent. of that wealth lies in the bands of the people who produce it.
That, I say to right hon. Gentlemen opposite, is the name of the game. It is not peaceful coexistence. It is not your right to tell us how to play our hand; it is not your right to tell us how and when we should strike. It is not for right hon. Gentlemen opposite, for the representatives of the employing class or for the employing class itself to tell us when we will strike and when we will not, and whether or not we will belong to unions. It was a right you never granted us, and a right that cannot be taken from us, not by legislation.

Mr. John Biggs-Davison: rose—

Miss Devlin: I have no intention of giving way to anybody on the benches opposite this evening. Right hon. and hon. Members opposite have already had too much to say on the Bill and have taken a great deal of time in saying it.
How will the Bill be defeated? We know that it will not be defeated in the House. Many hon. Members who have sat through the nights and argued in the Committee debates have adopted a principled position. There are others on these benches who have not adopted a principled position. There are people on these benches, representative of the Labour movement, who talk about legislating against the unions, or legislating to control the unions. Nobody but the working class itself has the right to determine the organisation of the working class, and that is through the industrial trade unions.
Hon. Members find themselves today in a number of very peculiar situations. They have on their hands a problem known as the Irish question—and I refer to it only in passing inasmuch as it will be relevant to the Bill. They have

that problem on their hands because as far back as 1916—

Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Robert Grant-Ferris): Order. We cannot have the Irish problem tonight.

Miss Devlin: With due respect to the Chair, I am not talking about the Irish problem but merely referring to it inasmuch as I wish to make a quotation relevant to the Bill, and that, I understand, is in order. What do you think to do with your laws? The quotation is:
Do you think to conquer the people,
Or that law is stronger than life
Or than man's desire to be free?
Well, we will have it out with ye,
Ye that hath harried, and held, ye that bullied,
and bribed tyrants, hypocrites, liars.
That is a quotation from the people of Ireland in 1916, which echoes today from the workers of this country to the Government. I say to this Government that while the Members of this House may have sat in committees, many of us have talked to the officials of trade unions and, much more important, to those people who will defeat the Bill, the rank and file of the trade union movement on the shop floor and factory floor. Those people will decide whether law is stronger than life. They will decide whether, if the Bill passes into law, as it most probably will, the Government can make that law effective. I say to the Government, "You either abandon this Bill now or you go down with it".

10.15 p.m.

Mr. David Mitchell: No doubt every time this House solves the Irish question, the Irish will change the question.
I have in my hand what is for this House dramatic new evidence to support the need for this Bill. It is a letter from the Ford Motor Company, which tells me that last year that company had no fewer than 155 disputes in its plants and that they cost it 682,000 man-hours. This year, it has lost, up to the end of the sixth week of the strike, 11¼ million man-hours. The letter says:
The cumulative effect of this over the last two years, coupled with suppliers strikes…has been…to finally destroy our credibility with those people who buy our products…This has an effect in three different ways.


The first is on future expansion. This, I remind the House, is one of the major manufacturing and exporting companies of this country. The letter says:
…no further expansion is likely in Britain until such constant interruptions to production cease.
The second effect is on Ford assembly plants abroad. It says:
You will understand that Ford of Britain supplies cars in 'knocked-down' form to assembly plants all over the world. If the pipe line from Britain fails, the assembly plants also have to close and lay off their employees…two specific assembly plants in Australia and Portugal are now, as a result of their experiences, seeking to make themselves independent of Ford of Britain.

Mr. Loughlin: Stop reading.

Mr. Mitchell: It is legitimate for me to read the letter. Because it is damaging to the hon. Gentleman's case, there is no need for him to interrupt. The letter goes on to deal with the sale of cars built in Europe and says:
…Ford of Britain sells built-up cars assembled in Britain to any Ford national company throughout the world that wishes to buy them…One of the most distressing aspects of the last 12 months has been the…increasing pressure from…dealers' customers to be supplied with cars from Germany rather than from Britain.
He points out the places and countries where this is happening. The reality is that no Government in this country could continue to allow that situation, of which I have given an example affecting one of our largest manufacturing and exporting companies, to go unchecked.
The hon. Member for Putney (Mr. Hugh Jenkins) said that, under the American system, there are longer strikes. But they are foreseeable—he admitted that. He went on to suggest that there was little damage in this country from many small, short, unofficial strikes. I have been looking at the figures. Little damage? Let us take British Leyland. Until November last year, since that company was formed of an amalgamation of the last purely British manufacturing companies, it had had three weeks only without disputes. Last year it had lost £35 million worth of car production.

Mr. Ray Carter: rose—

Mr. Mitchell: I will not give way. It is late and it would not be fair to other

hon. Members if I gave way now. I am making a case which is backed by the reply I received to a Parliamentary Question recently about statistics of industrial disputes. I could easily have taken the figures for one particular year and compared them with another particular year which I had chosen to suit my argument. But I take the figures for the 10 years from 1950 to 1959. The average number of new strikes a week was 11 in that period. In the 10 years 1960 to 1969, it was 31; in 1970 it was 72.
No Government of any party—and the presence of the right hon. Member for Blackburn (Mrs. Castle) reminds us of it—could allow that situation to develop without doing something about it. My right hon. Friend was right to bring in this Bill—a modest, reasonable, fair-minded step forward. It has running through it a central theme—a theme which I would have thought acceptable to both sides of the House and which is certainly accepted throughout the country. It is the theme of seeking to raise the standards of both employers and union activities—for neither are perfect—to the best standards which are now entrenched and used by both sides of industry.
The code sets up a set of standards. So do the new conditions which employers have to fulfil. They have to give longer notice to long-service employees; they are compelled to disclose matters for negotiation; the larger firms are compelled to give annual reports to employees; employers are compelled to give employees in writing a statement of what they have to do if they have a grievance. Through all the major proposals the constantly recurring theme is raising the standards.
We come to binding agreements and the law. Would the trade unions today, if they had the power to seek redress through the law, use it, or would they say that they would have nothing to do with the law? I have been looking into this and I find that under the Terms and Conditions of Employment Act, 1959, trade unions have the right in certain circumstances to force an employer to comply with a national agreement. I found no fewer than 223 occasions when unions applied under that Act to secure benefits for themselves and their members. Yet they have the effrontery and


hypocrisy to pretend that they would not be prepared to use, or to accept the use of, the law in industrial relations.
Throughout the Bill one finds the continuing theme of raising standards. With the introduction of modern civilised procedures, we shall get at the cause of many of the industrial disputes from which the country suffers, disputes over dismissal, over union recognition, over the problems arising from the closed shop. In each case a modern civilised procedure will remove the root cause.
I give the Bill a wholesale welcome, but in doing so I give three warnings and I hope that I shall carry my hon. Friends with me. First, the public expect far too much to be achieved by the Bill—more than could possibly be achieved by legislation. [Laughter.] While hon. Members are cheering, my right hon. Friend is nodding agreement. Some people have the idea that purely by legislating we can solve the whole problem of industrial relations; we cannot. Inevitably the Bill has had to be brought forward more quickly than would be normal for legislation of this kind because it was so

urgently required. I regret that the procedures of the House do not permit us to have three committees sitting concurrently to consider different parts of the Bill, because that would have permitted far more detailed consideration of many Clauses which the time scale has not allotted us to consider as much as we should like.
Secondly, industrial relations are human relations. They are the way in which foremen and shop stewards, managements and union officials get on with each other. Many hon. Members opposite know in their heart of hearts that there is wild distortion and mistrust which means that there is not the good will which is essential for management and men to do their business properly with one another.
I make this simple appeal: I hope that those who have influence with the unions, with the T.U.C., once this Bill gets on the Statute Book will stop the theatrical opposition and try to restore the good will which is the very basis and heart of industrial relations and which this Bill can help support.

10.26 p.m.

Mr. William Hamling: That kind of penny lecture from the hon. Member for Basingstoke (Mr. David Mitchell) would come better from a member of a party which has not sought votes by "union bashing" for the last three years. That penny lecture would come better from a Party which has not consistently preached that something must be done about the unions—

Mrs. Peggy Fenner: The hon. Gentleman's party decided that.

Mr. Hamling: I am talking about Tory election propaganda. What I am saying is that we have been fed with propaganda, but not by the Secretary of State; he is far too sensible for that. It is the people behind him, at Tory Central Office, who have persistently preached anti-union propaganda. They have said that the unions are too strong, that the strength of the unions must be curbed. It has been said already in the debate that the strength of the unions must be curbed.

Mr. R. Carr: indicated dissent.

Mr. Hamling: The right hon. Gentleman was not in his place then but one of his hon. Friends said just that.

Mr. Carr: I am sorry if the hon. Gentleman mistook me. I was saying "No" to his interpretation of what Tory Party propaganda has been. My right hon. Friend the present Prime Minister, when Leader of the Opposition, made a speech to the party conference years ago in which he stated quite firmly that the trouble in this country was not that the unions were too strong but that they were too weak. The whole of our policy is based on that.

Mr. Hamling: I promised to speak for only five minutes and that intervention has cost me two. I remind the right hon. Gentleman that his hon. Friend who is to wind up the debate has half an hour in which to reply and if he cannot reply to a speech of mine lasting a couple of minutes in half an hour, then God help him.
Let me repeat what I said. Consistently from the Tory Party we have had anti-union propaganda saying that

the unions are undermining the economy, that they are responsible for the inflation from which the country has been suffering—[HON. MEMBERS: "Rubbish."] That is what they say. All the ills from which this country is suffering are laid at the door of the trade union movement.
The Conservative Party do not want to strengthen the trade unions; they want to weaken them. This Bill is an irrelevance and a political trick to gain support for a Party who have not got the guts to get up and say what their real economic policies are. This Bill is a political manoeuvre from beginning to end and it will not work. The right hon. Gentleman said during the election that it will not stop strikes. They know that this Bill will not work. They know that the legal parts of the Bill are not understood even by the lawyers on their own Front Bench, still less by industrialists and still less by those in factories who will have to operate this law.
This Bill will not work. In any case it will not come into existence for three years. It is completely irrelevant to the present economic problems from which the country suffers. It is, at the same time, a political manoeuvre. It is a political provocation, which has been used by the Conservative Party. For some three months now we have had this anti-union campaign mounted by them. Not by the right hon. Gentleman, he is only the fall guy. The real villains are behind him. The real villains are the people in that party who seek to pretend that if only the unions were controlled, this country would be prosperous.

Mr. Loughlin: Will my hon. Friend give way?

Mr. Hamling: No. I will not. I did not mind giving way to the Secretary of State for two minutes, but I will not give way now. I wish hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite would have the courtesy occasionally to listen to speeches in the same way as we on this side have done. By making those noises, and interrupting, all that hon. Gentlemen opposite are doing is preventing one of their own people from having a go in this debate. When the hon. Lady the Member for Mid-Ulster (Miss Devlin)


spoke she promised to speak for five minutes, and I do not want to be longer.
The Conservative Party has been saying for a long time that inflation has been caused by the trade unions. [HON. MEMBERS: "The hon. Member has said that already."] Many times have Members of the Tory Party said it. This Bill is a political exercise and a political diversion. [Laughter.] Hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite are displaying an utter lack of seriousness in their approach to this problem. What they are displaying by their usual bad manners is their complete refusal to face the facts behind this Bill. They regard it as a joke—

Mr. Waddington: They are rocking in the aisles by the hon. Member.

Mr. Hamling: Hon. Members opposite regard their union bashing as something to giggle about. They regard attacking decent, ordinary working men who are shop stewards as something to sneer about and to be amused about. What the Bill does is precisely to attack that sort of person. [HON. MEMBERS: "Nonsense."] That is what this Bill is about. They want to deprive shop stewards of the power they have had in the past. That is what this Bill is about.
Hon. Members opposite want to blame all the ills of this country on the trade union movement. They do not want to face the electors about it. By their very propaganda they themselves have caused industrial strife for which they blame the unionists. All the industrial strife we have had over the last six months has been against the background of their propaganda and of their blaming the unions and of this Bill. Every capitalist newspaper which one picks up—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."]—the Daily Mail, the Daily Telegraph, The Times, the Financial Times—blames the unions. They all echo the propaganda of Conservative Central Office. That is the product of the Bill—

Mr. David Mitchell: rose—

Hon. Members: Sit down.

Mr. Hamling: That is the product of the Bill, and although the right hon. Gentleman personally does not believe in his own Conservative propaganda, he must accept responsibility for it, because

he is the front man for this Conservative attack on the trade union movement.

10.35 p.m.

Mr. David Crouch: I assure you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, that the hon. Member for Woolwich, West (Mr. Hamling) usually speaks faster and covers more ground in the time allotted to him when he speaks in this Chamber. Above all, he is a man of great good humour normally, particularly outside. However, we did not get much evidence of that tonight.

Mr. Hamling: Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

Mr. Crouch: No.

Mr. Hamling: I gave way during my speech.

Mr. Crouch: Very well.

Mr. Hamling: When I am treated with good manners, I react with good manners.

Mr. Crouch: I accept that.
I should apologise to the House for making a brief intervention in the debate. I did not speak on Second Reading or on Report; nor did I take part in the Committee proceedings. My last speech in this House on industrial relations was some months ago. I am placed in some embarrassment when I remember the position which I took on that occasion which, certainly in my own mind, took some courage, because I came out wholeheartedly in support of the right hon. Member for Blackburn (Mrs. Castle) in her attempt to tackle this great problem of improving industrial relations.
Whilst there is much criticism today of the right hon. Lady for the manner in which she has conducted the opposition to this Bill—a measure which I wholeheartedly support—I recognise that we are in a political world, above all, in this Chamber and that the right hon. Lady has had to gather to herself her own strength, the strength of her party, and the strength of the trade unions, and I think we must admit that she has not done a bad job.
I had doubts, some two or three years ago, about the effectiveness of introducing legislation to improve and to perfect our troubled industrial relations. I speak as one who has spent all his working life


in industry, and in industrial relations. I felt that it might have spoilt the opportunity for the development of good industrial harmony and relations. My view was supported not only by trade unionists and shop stewards whom I had met in many parts of the country, but by senior, middle range and junior managements. But I have no doubts now.
In all the discussions on the Bill there has been talk about the need for a "legal framework." But I sense that hon. Members opposite are growing tired of that phrase. I sympathise with them. I prefer to think instead of a scaffolding within which we in this House of Commons, the Government assisted by the Opposition, and management in industry and in the trade union movement, assisted by all trade unionists, have to build a new house in our industrial society which will depend less and less on the scaffolding of law which surrounds it and more and more on the people within that scaffolding building that new industrial society which affords the only possibility for this country to go forward and to overcome its economic problems.
There are many hon. Members opposite, including the right hon. Member for Blackburn, the hon. Member for Liverpool, Walton (Mr. Heffer) and the hon. Member for Salford, West (Mr. Orme), to whose speeches I have listened with great respect and attention over the years, who have the good will to achieve the building of this house. That goes not only for the hon. Gentlemen opposite who are listening to me but for those who, if they were in their places, would be occupying the empty green leather benches before me.
They have more than the good will to achieve this. I believe that, basically, they have the good sense to understand what is at stake. If we not make this Measure, when it is passed, something more than an Act, and if it is merely allowed to reside in filing cabinets in Whitehall and in trade union and industrial management offices, we shall achieve nothing.
We need the will to make sure that the three parties let it be known that we wish to give the country the leadership which it certainly needs and which we

have been striving to provide in the last few months. Only if we are united in endeavouring to see that the Bill is implemented shall we achieve these aims.

10.42 p.m.

Mr. Ronald King Murray: The Secretary of State presented an attractive prospectus today, but that was after, rather than before, he had floated the Bill. However, it seems that this prospectus is not likely to win any subscribers, judging by the Liberals, for in the meantime the Liberal Bench has changed its stand on the matter. From voting for the Bill, Liberal hon. Members have gone through abstaining from voting with their feet in the early hours of the morning to their present position, in which they are repelled from, rather than attracted to, the Measure.
When considering a Bill of this kind, it is important to read not only the large but the small print. First, when considering the large print, we must bear in mind what was said earlier about contempt and imprisonment. This matter was first raised in the speech of the Under-Secretary on Second Reading, when, having charged my hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, Walton (Mr. Heffer) with having misled the House by hinting at imprisonment, he said:
This is a civil Bill with civil law and there will be no-one sent to prison—
He was unable to complete that sentence because at that point my hon. Friend the Member for Manchester, Blackley (Mr. Rose) intervened to ask:
Is that an undertaking?
The Under-Secretary replied:
The hon. Member asks whether that was an undertaking. There are no provisions in this Bill to send anyone to prison"—
My hon. Friend the Member for Blackley again intervened and said:
The hon. Member must know—we have had this out before at the Dispatch Box—that the ultimate way of enforcing these provisions must be by gaol. Whether this is criminal, civil or quasi-criminal—and the authorities differ—the ultimate end for a person caught under these provisions must be prison; otherwise, there is no way of enforcing it".—[OFFICIAL, REPORT, 14th December, 1970; Vol. 808, c. 1067–8.]
It was only later, in Committee, that we finally got confirmation from other Government spokesmen that that was the effect of the Bill.
That is the large print. I wish to make it clear that, from my point of view, I entirely accept what has been said repeatedly by the Government—that the sanctions are civil sanctions—but that we have stressed that those civil sanctions end with an ultimate deterrent which does not seem to differ materially from the final criminal sanction.
Let us look at the small print in Schedule 2 on page 115, at paragraph 25. That is the only significant reference to the ultimate penalty of imprisonment for contempt. I stress that in presenting the prospectus in this relatively attractive way, the Secretary of State mentioned human relations and seemed to be suggesting that the Bill would help these in some way. It is an Industrial Relations Bill and not a human relations Bill. He is setting up an institution entitled the National Industrial Relations Court. That is not a human relations court.
In the code which the Bill seeks to set up, there is little doubt that the law is being compartmentalised and fragmented, because we are removing something from the general law of the land and putting it into a special compartment. In many ways this, rather than anything else, is the innovation of the Bill. It would be wrong not to point out that a step of this kind is bound to detract from the universality and justice of the courts and will tend to narrow, rather than widen, the quasi-legal concepts, such as fair and unfair industrial practices, and the law of contempt, which are stressed by the Bill.
There is a sensitive boundary of human relations which it would be wrong to ignore. This subject arose yesterday in connection with political strikes. We on this side of the House welcomed the assurance given by the Solicitor-General that in the Government's view political strikes are not struck at by the Bill.
Sympathy strikes are certainly struck at in that these are secondary boycotts. I hope that this does not mean that sympathy strikes of a different kind, in which the humanitarian element is dominant, are struck at. I have in mind the obvious
situation which may arise where one group of workers is appalled at an injustice suffered by another group and, in that immediate spontaneous feeling, take action of some kind which is not

related to industrial action in the ordinary sense. I hope that, in the Government's view, political strikes are not struck at, and that the Bill will not strike at humanitarian codes.
Another point touched on by the Secretary of State was the question of what trade unions are for and what they are about. A matter which worries many of my hon. Friends and myself is that two of the most important functions of trade unions are to persuade and to combine. They were originally combinations which were illegal at common law. If they have any purpose, it is for persuading workpeople to combine in their common interest and to enable employers to understand a collective viewpoint being presented.
In that connection, I and many of my hon. Friends are worried by the constant use of the word "induce" in the Bill, and the difficulty of drawing a clear line, as the law requires, as to what is to be illegal and what is to be persuasion of a peaceful and legal kind. By their very nature, trade unions are for the collective protection of individuals' rights. That is as it should be. One cannot take away the "collective" nor the "individual". We must have regard necessarily to the quantity of persuasion as well as the quality—when many people have a common view, quantity is important and not just the quality of the arguments presented.
Here the concept which is important in trade union history and philosophy is of solidarity. I cannot help feeling that hon. Gentlemen opposite find that an alien concept to some extent—perhaps some of them do not. But perhaps they would he able to understand a little better what the concept of solidarity means for trade unions if they were to think in terms of allegiance to the Crown—which I am sure they understand—or loyalty to the Conservative Party, to a regiment or to a tradition.
If one thinks of concepts of that kind one is getting nearer to an understanding of what lies behind the strength of feeling on this side of the House about the closed shop, the agency shop and 100 per cent. union membership. There is a delicate balance of persuasion, consent and force at the boundary between any human activity and the law. The vital


question is whether the balance is correctly struck. If force comes into it too quickly, a project may be doomed.
In many ways, that is where the issue stands between the two sides of the House: the trade unions and the law. We on this side care too much for the trade unions and for justice to risk sacrificing either in a premature, shot-gun marriage.

10.50 p.m.

Mr. T. L. Iremonger: One would be very insensitive not to value the note struck by the hon. and learned Member for Edinburgh, Leith (Mr. Murray) in his closing words, and I hope to echo many of them. However, since I have promised to finish my speech by eleven o'clock, and since I am sure that he would prefer my hon. and learned Friend to deal with his questions, I shall not pursue them myself. I shall content myself with three comments, two of them about misunderstandings, and the third a general comment about the Bill.
The hon. Member for Fife, West (Mr. William Hamilton) was right when he said that there are wild exaggerations being made about the Bill. He described it as "an incomprehensible legal jungle", and a number of hon. Members have said that it is a lawyers' Bill. But when compared with good journalism, all Acts of Parliament are incomprehensible. Equally, good journalism would be totally inadequate if it were subjected to strict construction in a court of law. It is unfair and childish to criticise the Bill on the ground that it is incomprehensible. At the same time, there is a note of truth in the criticism which should be heard and acknowledged. It calls for a constructive response which I am sure will be forthcoming from my hon. and learned Friend.
The Bill's principles are not incomprehensible. Clause 1, for example, is easy to understand. But the Measure as a whole is difficult for people to grasp—[Interruption.] The right hon. Member for Blackburn (Mrs. Castle) may sneer, but, with respect, her own Bill was not exactly light reading. But this is no criticism. It is not even a criticism of Parliamentary draftsmen, who have problems that we do not have.
Our problem is to make people understand matters that they have a right to

understand. I hope that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State will be able to do this in two ways: first, by a publication from his Department giving a detailed guide to the workings of the Bill for those who are concerned; and, second, by publishing a description of what the Bill does in more general terms for those who want it.
That brings me to my second point. I was grateful recently to have the opportunity of two long sessions with the shop stewards of a major undertaking in my constituency. When the discussion got down to brass tacks and I asked what was the trouble, they put their point of view to me in simple terms. These were not the bogeymen of Tory ladies' committees, with the best of respect to them—one would be foolish to ignore the fact that the whole of politics is made up of bogeymen—and any person who could not come to terms with these men would have something wrong with him. It is possible to talk to them, and I asked them to give me the guts of their objection. They told me that they are pround of their good industrial relations with their employers but that they are afraid that the Bill will make good industrial relations bad by cramming sensible and workable procedures into some sort of legal straitjacket.
I explained that to my right hon. Friend and he helpfully replied to it, both to me personally and in his speech this afternoon. I will send his speech to every one of the 126 people in the factory who wrote to me, and to the shop stewards who came to see me.
Coming, now, to this code of practice, it is absolutely vital that my right hon. Friend should consult abut this, that he should be seen to consult about it and that he should consult the right people, making special reference—the right hon. Lady the Member for Blackburn said something about this—to employers' unfair practices. [Interruption.] I did not join the Tory Party because I was on the side of the employers. I joined the Tory Party for rather better reasons, I hope. I do not want any unfair practices by employers. It is important that the employers should be put on test in the code of industrial practice, just as much as the other side, and my right hon. Friend must make sure that all parties are clear in that respect.
With respect to my right hon. Friend, we ought to have not just the code presented to us. We ought to have a draft for consultation. We ought to have a debate on the draft so that we can say what we think is wrong with it. We ought then to have a debate on the amended draft, and then we ought to have the regulations. I do not think that four parliamentary days are a heavy price to pay for being seen to try to consider the anxieties which are expressed and constructive suggestions which are made.
I thought my right hon. Friend was very wise to say that there is no magic cure in this Bill. Frankly, I am a little frightened at the hopes which seem to be placed on it. I have never maintained that it is possible to establish good industrial relations by an industrial relations Measure of this kind. [Interruption.] I believe that it is possible to remedy very bad ones, however, and it does not lie in the right hon. Lady's mouth to say that it cannot be done, because there are some very choice quotations from her own mouth about the importance of giving a legal framework to industrial relations. I have no doubt that she has had enough of "In Place of Strife" being thrown at her, and I sympathise with her in her difficulty.

Mrs. Castle: I love it.

Mr. Iremonger: If she loves it, the point is made. This Bill is merely, in principle, doing what she did. We may argue about the details, but what we are not arguing about is the fact that legislation has a proper part to play in industrial relations at the proper time, and the time had already come when the right hon. Lady wanted to introduce it.
Therefore, I have no apologies for the Bill, and I do not expect too much of it. [Laughter.] It is all very well to sneer, but it would be very foolish to expect too much from this Bill.
My final point is this: it would be a mistake because of the polarised passions which have been generated in this debate to under-rate, on the other side of the House, the support that this Bill has received.
I should like to read a letter that was sent to me, totally unsolicited—I was myself surprised at the depth of passion

that it revealed—from a constituent of mine who had already written to me supporting the Bill. He said:
…you may be interested to know that at the Ilford…branch meeting held on the 2nd March the following motion, proposed by myself, was debated and then passed by 41 votes to 13 against:
'This branch deplores the action of the A.U.E.W. Executive Committee in imposing strike action on the members in opposition to the Industrial Relations Bill.'
This is a small beginning but is in keeping with the 'shop floor revolution' that is taking place and gives the direct lie to Scanlon's statement that he has no evidence of dissent among A.U.E.W. members. I and my supporters will continue our efforts to combat the attempts of the Scanlons of this country to create a state of industrial anarchy.
That was not from me, or a Tory supporter of mine, as far as I know. It was from a trade union member, reporting what happened at his branch meeting. If hon. Members do not believe either what it says or the veracity of my quotation, the letter is available for anybody to see. Although this is not an easy matter, hon. Members opposite will find that they gravely misjudge the whole temper of the country and that of many of their own Supporters in opposing the Bill in the way they do.

11.0 p.m.

Mr. Douglas Houghton: I am sure that hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite must be relieved that their last hour has come. I have no special claim to be assigned the honour given to me this evening, because the last speech that I made on the Bill was in the Second Reading debate, on 15th December last year, which seems many, many nights ago. In the intervening stages of the Bill my principal occupation seems to have been that of a Lobby marshal. Whatever hon. and right hon. Members opposite have got out of these long debates they have surely experienced some of the drama and the moving scenes of unity and emotion displayed by these benches. There has been nothing to compare with it since the historic battles in this House, and between this House and the House of Lords, 60 years ago.
There have been gibes about the form that our protests have taken, but when debate is denied us only demonstration is left. In any case, my hon. Friends and I are not accountable to hon. Members


opposite for what we do in the House; we are accountable to the people who sent us here, our constituents, the Labour movement, and the trade unions.
My hon. Friend the Member for Salford, West (Mr. Orme)—who I am sure the whole House will agree has enhanced his parliamentary reputation tonight—expressed in his speech something of the depth of feeling that he and many others have about the Bill. That feeling is shared by many hon. Members on this side of the House. Hon. Members opposite have difficulty in understanding this depth of feeling because, as a class, they have never had to fight their way out of bondage.
Listening to the debate in the last few hours I have come to the conclusion that the claims made by hon. Members opposite about what the Bill will do have been written down quite a lot. It is a pity that those more moderate claims were not made in our earlier debates. The hon. Member for Barry (Mr. Gower), the hon. Member for Hampstead (Mr. Geoffrey Finsberg) and the hon. Member for Basingstoke (Mr. David Mitchell) all asked the House and the country not to pitch their expectations too high about what the Bill might do. The truth is that my hon. and right hon. Friends have given the Bill such a hammering in the long Committee and Report stages that it is no longer able to stand on its own two feet; the Bill will go to another place only if it is taken there in an ambulance.
Before I come to the more unpleasant part of my speech may I be permitted briefly to make one or two personal references? The whole House must be grateful to the Secretary of State and his two colleagues on the Front Bench for their painstaking exposition of the Bill and their tolerance and patience throughout. We owe them a debt of gratitude.
On this side there have been feats of physical and mental endurance rarely seen in the House, by my right hon. Friend the Member for Blackburn (Mrs. Castle), my hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool. Walton (Mr. Heffer)—we shall miss him from the Front Bench when he goes back to the back benches—my hon. Friend the Member for Doncaster (Mr.

Harold Walker) and my hon. Friend the Member for Manchester, Blackley (Mr. Rose). There has been some splendid team work on the Bill on both sides of the House.
I hope that it is not an impertinence for me to express the gratitude of the House to the Chair for its tolerance and understanding of the problems of this contentious Bill.
Last Thursday, 18th March, at the T.U.C. was a good day for moderation in the trade union movement, notwithstanding the provocations of the Bill. It was a bad day for the Government, and it was a rather poor day for this House. While respect for the law still prevails amongst the unions, even for bad law, references at the conference to the need to uphold our system of parliamentary Government were rather coolly received. That should be noted in the House for two reasons: first, because dissatisfaction with the parliamentary process for dealing with a Bill of this length and complexity, and containing such contentious proposals, goes far beyond the T.U.C.; second, because I think that we are seeing the first signs that the trade unions are joining the revolt of youth against politics and Parliament. [Interruption.] Those who observed the T.U.C. conference on 18th March can surely have got that impression.
The conditions and circumstances in which we come to the Third Reading of the Bill are a parliamentary outrage. It is apparently beyond the capacity of our procedures to keep up the pretence of parliamentary scrutiny and full debate on a Bill of this kind. This will not do. The hon. Member for Basingstoke a few moments ago made some suggestions on remedying our procedures. For a long time we thought that the only way to deal with the Finance Bill and its long Committee and Report stages was on the Floor of the House in one go. We have tried other methods, and those experiments have proved successful. We must seek a remedy for the frustrations and disadvantages of dealing with a Bill in this way.
Now a word about the mandate and the General Election. For the Government to claim a mandate for the Bill from the marginal result of the General Election last June is to claim the right of one half of the people to impose


objectionable legislation on the other half—[HON. MEMBERS: "No."] Oh, yes. Trade unionists and their families comprise about one half of the electorate. The rejection of any semblance of consensus on such a contentious matter is a dangerous act of political defiance. The Government are deliberately provoking class divisions. They are treating the trade unions as a social enemy.
When the Government say that, by pushing this Bill through the House under the guillotine, they are fulfilling an election promise, we are entitled to know what has happened to some of the other election promises. Government by manifesto may appeal to the scoreboard mentality in politics, but if they are to retain confidence a Government must always be representative, responsible and relevant—and this Bill is none of those things.
How can the Government claim that the Bill is representative of public opinion when so little is really understood about what it really means and when millions of organised workers who know better what it means are protesting so loudly against it? If the Bill is designed to strengthen the trade unions, to put power back into the hands of the trade union establishment, why was it that one respected trade union leader after another at the Congress on 18th March went to the rostrum to denounce the Bill? These men are not disciples of anarchy. I have worked with them; I know them; I was on the General Council with them. The Government claim that the Bill is intended to strengthen their hands, but they denounce it as doing no such thing.
The Government should pause to consider what they are doing. Why have we heard so little, during all these debates and controversies about the Bill, from industrial managements and employers? How guarded and lukewarm they are! They know that industrial relations mean working and living together and that lawyers and litigation and courts and damages will not make things any better. The Bill is no act of responsibility with its crop of industrial friction and trade union disruption at a time of serious inflation and unemployment. This is the very worst time to be going stubbornly on with a Measure conceived long ago in entirely different circumstances.
This is irresponsible Government. The Bill has little relevance to today compared with the more urgent need to find the alternatives to the growing chaos and collapse of the outmoded structure of management and much of our capitalist enterprise. This is the problem which is rapidly overtaking the conventional economic policies of the past; this is the problem which dwarfs our obsession about wildcat strikes and other signs of trouble, for which this Bill has only legalistic remedies to offer.
It will be six years next month since the Donovan Commission was appointed and three years since it reported. Much of the thinking and evidence upon which it was based is already out of date. The Bill was overtaken before it was drafted by the new threat to industrial peace which is the growing discontent of workers with their environment in the world of mergers, take-overs, international corporations, financial entrepreneurs and the depreciation and draining of the human spirit in the vast field of technology and of mass production. There is an indictment of modern Britain for you! Much of industry today is becoming unfit for human occupation.
The oppressive tyranny of the production line and the failure to distinguish between the worker and a battery hen will continue to make walk-outs and strikes and other forms of mutiny endemic in industry in Britain today. I believe that the impulses behind this movement cannot be contained within the framework of law, still less within the ingenious elaborations of this Bill. They have to do with management, with conditions and with the human factor. The Bill deals only with the symptoms underlying the malaise of human relations—and these are human relations. We talk of industrial relations but we are really talking of human relations the whole time.
Of the causes of disorder, bad management, bad as it is in some places, does not account for it all. I saw an article by Professor Reddin in The Times on 15th March which struck a note in my mind. It was entitled "What's wrong with the British?": a question many of our friends overseas ask from time to time. He suggested that our industries are afflicted not so much with the extension of the class struggle as with what


he calls the class "status schism" and said
Status rather than knowledge is the basis for determining points at which decisions should be made.
He criticises the stratification of management at various levels of management, and the division between management and employees, with a tendency for each level to dominate the levels below—and my hon. Friend the Member for Gloucestershire, West (Mr. Loughlin) referred to that.
Professor Reddin says:
I think the Bill is no more than a patch-up job.
He says he does not think it will solve the basic issue. This Bill is an attempt to shore up the system by imposing prohibitions and punishments. It bears all the marks of failure to consult the T.U.C. and is not even put forward as the product of enlightened management.
In all the 16 days of this Bill, the authoritative voice of British industrial management has been virtually silent. Probably some employers are wiser than to welcome the invidious responsibility of picking up the various sticks in the Bill to beat their workpeople. I ask quite solemnly how dare a Conservative Government put British workers to the indignities of this Bill—men and women who fought and worked for freedom and against oppression?
The Government claim that this is a framework of law, of which the major part is in line with Donovan. This has been disputed time and again throughout our debates. The existing loose framework of law is to be replaced by a new and complicated network of law.
The Government plainly aim to make legal regulations and legal sanctions the main instrument of policy for changing industrial relations. This is entirely alien to our long tradition of voluntary action. This is where they have gone wrong.
The Bill sets up an entirely new structure of an industrial judicial system and even to take the House through the main points of the National Industrial Relations Court, Industrial Court and the Commission on Industrial Relations—even to give the merest sketch—would take more time than I would be justified in occupying just now.
One has only to look at this new juidicial system and the pressures of the Bill to realise that it will create a new industry, an industry of industrial relations law consultants and practitioners and although the hon. and learned Member for Southport (Mr. Percival) dissociated himself from the view of my hon. Friend the Member for Fife, West Mr. William Hamilton) I believe that the unions, union officials, shop stewards and employers and managers will have to enter the world of wig and gown where ambiguous words are construed, hairs are split, loopholes are found, and lawyers will bless the British constitution.
With regard to the redistribution of power within the Bill, the aim of the Bill is to turn the tide of democratic control into autocratic control. This is the most fundamental aim of the Bill, but in recent years shop floor power has grown and union headquarters power has weakened. This has made for more trade union democracy, although many will complain that this has not been responsibly used at local level. The Bill is undoubtedly an attempt to put trade union activities at local level within the framework of law and regulation.
The Bill therefore seeks to reverse the trend of recent years which I believe to have been in the direction of democracy and which would have eventually been in the direction of more responsible democracy among trade unions. The Government want to reverse that trend by limiting the right of local leaders of groups of workers, whether shop stewards or not, to act for their unions without being clearly authorised to do so by the union's rules. This will not improve relations between trade union leaders and local leaders, as several hon. Members have pointed out.
We also find fresh mischief in the Government's agency shop proposals. There is plenty of scope for it in the provision that one-fifth of the members covered by an agency shop arrangement can challenge it every two years by asking for a ballot in which non-voting members could determine the result. The false character of the equation of the right not to join a union with the right to join a union was argued in the Donovan Report, but, notwithstanding that, the Government have enshrined this in the Bill as a basic human right.
Reference has been made to what we saw on television last night when a representative of management stressed that to decide not to belong to a union was equivalent to rejecting involvement in the responsibilities of democracy, and that is something which cannot lightly be conceded. Yet the Bill does that. There are many problems about the strike. Finally, we have the system of registration with its positive discrimination against non-registered unions. We find this particularly objectionable. The description "trade union" is denied to an unregistered body; it is to be denied legitimacy; it is to be known as an organisation of workers, not a trade union.
This is not so much a Bill as a Bible full of commandments and the wrath to come. It makes the mistake of relieving both sides of industry of their responsibilities towards each other. This is industrial relations by the book, giving little encouragement to positive effort to live together.
The petition which I presented to the House today and which was signed by
hundreds of thousands of trade unionists asked the Government to withdraw the Bill. Should it become law, we on these benches will surely one day have the duty to decide its future. [Laughter.] That day will come; it will come far sooner than many complacent faces on the Government benches would like.
Hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite already have a dreadful reckoning before them. They are not through with their economic policies yet; we have not seen what they are to be. All we have seen are the consequences of not having any.
It is my duty, speaking on behalf of the Parliamentary Labour Party, to refer to this question of repeal. The recent Croydon congress approved a recommendation of the Trades Union Congress that the General Council should seek from the Parliamentary Labour Party an explicit and unconditional assurance on the repeal of the Bill. We on these benches take note of that. [Interruption.] We always take note of counsel which comes from the Trades Union Congress.
This Bill would have been a better Bill if the Government had done the same. I can only refer to my speech on

Second Reading at col. 1152 of 15th December, 1970, which put the position of the Parliamentary Labour Party on the record. It is still our firm intention and desire to develop our constructive alternative to this Bill so to provide a firm basis for its repeal. That is the policy of the Parliamentary Labour Party—[Interruption]. It contains a firm message to the trade unions and to the people that we wish to work towards an accord between the trade unions and a future Labour Government that will produce the basis of industrial peace, that will provide the basis for economic growth, that will lead the country to prosperity. To accomplish this will surely be the most crushing rejoinder to the folies and mischief of this misguided Government.

11.27 p.m.

The Solicitor-General (Sir Geoffrey Howe): May I begin by joining the right hon. Member for Sowerby (Mr. Houghton) in the tribute which he paid to yourself, Mr. Speaker, and those who have held the Chair during the course of the proceedings on this Bill—

Mr. Russell Kerr: Come on, smoothie.

The Solicitor-General: May I also be allowed to express my appreciation of his courtesy for what he said about my right hon. Friend, my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary and myself. Passion has from time to time risen high in our discussions, but aside from that I should like to reciprocate his compliment. I do not know whether I should compliment or commiserate with the hon. Member for Liverpool, Walton (Mr. Heffer) on his return, if it is intended, to the back benches. I am not sure whether his migration from one place to another has made more difference to the benches than it has to him. He seems to have remained notably unchanged—

Mr. Russell Kerr: This is not the Oxford Union.

The Solicitor-General: I must contrast the way in which the right hon. Gentleman commenced his remarks with the way in which the right hon. Lady chose to commence hers, because she made a comment about my right hon. Friend which many hon. Members must have thought was unworthy of her and the


occasion. She expressed the view that my right hon. Friend had been involved in what she described as minimum physical effort in the discharge of this Bill which wholly disregards the massive responsibilities he has had to discharge while the Bill has been before the House in Committee in the course of his other duties. It wholly disregards the fact that no Minister has devoted more thought to legislation for which he has been responsible.
Of course it is not the Bill of my right hon. Friend, still less is it, as the right hon. Lady the Member for Blackburn (Mrs. Castle) said, my Bill. It is the Bill of this Government and the party which supports them. It is brought before this House, as my hon. Friend the Member for Basingstoke (Mr. David Mitchell) said earlier, for reasons which are plain for all to see and which no one from either side has sought to challenge—the poor and declining state of our industrial relations. The right hon. Member for Sowerby suggested that the Donovan Report was conceived in entirely different circumstances and by implication that this Bill was conceived in entirely different circumstances.
The only difference which is noticeable is that during the six years since Donovan was appointed and during the three years since "Fair Deal at Work" was published, the state of our industrial relations has continued to decline and the need for legislation of this kind has become more and more urgent. The whole country can see the rising toll of industrial action, the declining respect for collective agreements, the increasing abuse or misuse of power, whether by trade unions or by management, the insufficient regard in industrial relations for the rights of individuals, whether we regard them as employees or as members of trade unions—and, running alongside these, the erosion of the will and capacity of management to manage.
Those are the reasons why the Government, along, I may say, with almost all independent liberal opinion in this country—despite the astonishing retraction of the hon. Member for Cornwall, North (Mr. Pardoe) this afternoon, which was out of line with the opinions expressed consistently by his hon. and learned Friend the Member for Mont-

gomery (Mr. Hooson) throughout these debates—are convinced, with the country, of the need for major reform of this kind.
The right hon. Member for Sowerby sought to suggest, on some frail foundation, that the Government were seeking to put one half of the nation against the other half, were dividing the nation, were imposing the wishes of one part of the nation on the other. That could not be further from the truth. The reasons which have impelled the Government and the country to the conclusion that legislation along these lines is essential are the same as the reasons which impelled the last Labour Administration to exactly the same conclusions.
At that time the country had cause to admire the courage with which the hon. Gentlemen opposite committed themselves to the need for action. That is why—and I say this in all seriousness—it is tragic indeed that the Labour Party were obliged, in the first place, to drop their own plans for legislation, that they have been ultimately compelled to oppose this legislation and finally, and I say this with regret, to misrepresent it, so that we see this evening the right hon. Member for Sowerby talking in terms which cannot carry conviction about the present Government subjecting British workers to what he chose to call the indignities of this Bill. What absolute nonsense!
The reasons which impelled the right hon. Gentleman's party and Government when they were in office to the conclusion that change was necessary now cause the country to look to the present Government to carry out this task. That is the history which explains why the country has so little respect for the nature and the quality of the opposition to the Bill as it has gone through the House. It was at least a generous and important concession which the right hon. Gentleman made this evening when he talked about the long Committee and Report stage which the Bill has received. It is good to have that acknowledged. So far we have been confronted with wholly unjustified criticism of the way in which the Bill has been brought before the House. The Bill has been considered on the Floor of the House, let it be remembered, in response to the request made by hon. Members opposite. It has been under discussion on the Floor of


the House for 21 full days—longer than any other Bill since the war.
As for the criticism which has been advanced about the timetables under which it has been discussed, let it be remembered that they were put forward by the party opposite. The time which has been available has, in many respects, been squandered away. Let me give the House one example. One topic which was discussed in Committee was the question of whether or not the unqualified right to picket a person's home in the course of a trade dispute should or should not be withdrawn. This single question was discussed for four and a half hours—

Mr. Orme: Rightly so.

The Solicitor-General: —with enormous repetition.

Mr. Russell Kerr: And three hours of Tory speeches.

The Solicitor-General: It was discussed in a way which the country must have found as confusing as the Committee did, because two quite inconsistent arguments were advanced by hon. Members opposite about that particular change. On the one hand, hon. Members opposite sought in that debate to suggest that by making this change we were striking a blow at the very lifeblood of trade unionism, taking a menacing step threatening the entire destruction of the trade union movement. In the next breath hon. Members opposite argued that the very concept of seeking to picket a person's home was so unthinkable, was so inconceivable, that there was no need to alter the law about that at all.
We reached the very pinnacle of idiocy last night, when we found hon. Members opposite voting solemnly in the Division Lobby against Amendments proposed to the Bill at their request. We found them at one point seeking to divide even against two specific Amendments which were supported by the right hon. Lady and all her colleagues.

Mr. Heffer: The hon. and learned Gentleman should really not try to mislead the House and the country. The two particular Amendments, so far as the Opposition Front Bench were concerned, were not divided upon, and the hon. and learned Gentleman knows that. I would, if I may, make just one other

point. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] Oh, yes, because hon. Gentlemen a little earlier today had a parade in this House and tried to give the country the impression that the Government had scored a great victory—[HON. MEMBERS: "Yes."]—when, in fact, they only got to the Third Reading because the Government had to drop 42 new Amendments.

The Solicitor-General: I chose my words carefully, and the fact is that hon. Members opposite voted against some Amendments for which they had asked and sought to divide on others.
I turn now to the argument which has recurred time and time again during these debates, the suggestion that legislation to change the law is inappropriate in this field. I may say that the suggestion that the law is an inappropriate machine for changing the shape of society is a suggestion which comes ill from the party opposite, which is always only too anxious to reach for a Statute to solve almost every problem.

Mr. Orme: What about Rolls-Royce?

The Solicitor-General: The suggestion that the law which we are laying before the House is unduly complex similarly comes ill from the party opposite which is responsible for more complicated legislation than any other party in our history.
It comes a little oddly that hon. Gentlemen opposite should draw attention to the Bill and complain at its length when the House may be interested to know that the rule book of the A.E.U., which we were discussing yesterday, runs to 200 pages and contains 10,000 words more than the Industrial Relations Bill.
My hon. Friend the Member for Ilford, North (Mr. Iremonger) invited me to reaffirm what my right hon. Friend has already said: that it is certainly important that the Bill should be made plain to the people who have to work with it. As my hon. Friend suggested, it will be the subject of a clear guide to those who have to work with it.
There is nothing wrong in the suggestion that the law should play a part in this sphere. In this country, which is subject to the rule of law, it is in fact the law which defines all our other rights, duties and obligations in relation to each other. There in other spheres, as in indus-


trial relations, the law is the framework which can change attitudes, can reform institutions and can, as my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Southport (Mr. Percival) pointed out, be the backcloth and the longstop which can help to shape the way in which we behave towards each other.
The House may ask: what is there particular about the law as we have it in this sphere at the present time? There is one thing which is outstanding about the state of our industrial law at the moment. It is that the law, as we have it now, is an antique law, unreformed for many years. It is astonishing that in almost every other sector of our national life the law is in a state of constant change. The law affecting companies, the law regulating monopolies, the law organising industry and the law organising the social services are subject to regular and periodic review. The one law which has never been subject to any modernisation is the law affecting industrial relations. That is the first unique factor.
It has beeen increasingly apparent that the shape of that law has been subject to deliberate abstention. Industrial relations have been left, until recently, to unwritten rules. This country knows that our unwritten rules have increasingly broken down. Too often in recent times industrial relations have been left to what Sydney Webb described as "arbitraments of private warfare." That is a state of affairs with which no civilised society ought to live if it can avoid it. So the Bill lays down, as has been pointed out by my right hon. Friend, fair, reasonable modern guidelines, to which people on both sides in industry will respond almost always without recourse to law.
One of the most interesting comments on this was the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Bridgwater (Mr. Tom King) when he pointed to the fact that Mr. Jack Jones only this week was arguing why he was now going to reform and introduce new procedural agreements with the employers with whom he had to deal to avoid having to take recourse to this law.
This is the effect of law in action. It is the way in which this House seeks to shape the institutions and habits of the people of the nation, and I am particu-

larly willing to defend this law in the area where we are seeking to redress the balance between the individual and the collective organisation.
Between individuals and employers we are making major changes for the first time. Several of my hon. Friends have pointed out that we are establishing a statutory system of appeal against unfair dismissal from employment. This is being done for the first time. For the first time also we are establishing the right of a worker to belong to a trade union—

Mr. Loughlin: Come off it.

The Solicitor-General: —which he can assert against his employer.
We put these proposals before the House because we agree with several of the points made by the right hon. Lady the Member for Blackburn. She said—and this is still true, even in our society today—that the individual has no rights as a citizen unless he is sure of being able to protect his job. That is why we are making provision for appeals against unfair dismissal.
The right hon. Lady also said it was wrong for the citizen to be threatened with the loss of his job by a decision of some remote body. We agree, but we also put forward the argument that it is not only the employing organisation which, in today's society, can exercise the sort of threat she has in mind. It must be acknowledged, because it is plain from our experience, that a person's livelihood and job can be as effectively threatened by the unfair decisions of trade unions and collective organisations—[Interruption.]—I hope hon. Gentlemen opposite will listen to what I am saying.
We agree, of course, as my right hon. Friend has repeated time and again, that membership of a trade union is something to be encouraged, and we applaud this. [Interruption.] As we were asked several times for this to be made plain, we voted last night for an Amendment in which my right hon. Friend has made it plain that an employer should be free to use his best endeavours to encourage union membership among all those who work for him. [Laughter.] It is no good hon. Gentlemen opposite seeking to laugh this off or brush it aside.
The Government believe—and hon. Members of the Liberal Party also believe, as do people of liberal conscience throughout the country—that individuals' freedoms also deserve to be preserved—[Interruption]—in the context of trade union organisation and membership.
Hon. Gentlemen opposite are fond of arguing that they wish to see the voluntary system of industrial relations preserved. So do we.

Mr. Orme: Tell us another.

The Solicitor-General: Hon. Gentlemen opposite who argue—

Hon. Members: Where's Ted, where's Ted?

The Solicitor-General: Hon. Gentlemen opposite who are fond of arguing in support of the voluntary system must support this as well, for if voluntaryism as a principle is to be preserved and encouraged, as indeed it is—[HON. MEMBERS: "Ted's in bed; Ted's in bed."]——then it is a principle which deserves to be encouraged in the context of an individual's decision whether or not, in the last resort, to join a trade union. [Interruption.]
The question of an individual's membership of a trade union is not something which should, in the last resort, be a subject of coercion. It should be a subject of willing consent of that individual. Hon. Members opposite persist in declining to understand the facts about the legal profession. The legal profession, like any other, has a trade union that is quite distinct from its professional qualifications. I belong to my professional trade union as a matter of choice and quite voluntarily.
I am glad that the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition is present, because he advanced this argument during the Second Reading debate. The right to practice in that profession depends upon a professional qualification. The decision as to whether or not to belong to the professional association is one that is entirely free for the individual himself to take.
I turn to another point advanced by the right hon. Lady in her speech and one which has been repeated time and time again. She has sought to suggest that this legislation will provide some

kind of way of helping the bad boss or employer.

Mr. Orme: So it will.

The Solicitor-General: I welcome the opportunity of repeating what my right hon. Friend has said, that the Bill will provide a series of firm guidelines to promote good management. Managers will realise, and should realise now, that the Bill is designed to encourage good management. If they ignore that, they do so at their peril. The Bill lays down enforceable procedures for the recognition of trade unions and requires management to work out procedures for its employees and to notify each employee of the procedures which are applicable to him. The Bill requires employers to have regard to the rights of their employees not to be unfairly dismissed.
Finally, on a point raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Ilford, North, the Bill contains provision for the code of industrial relations practice. I am glad to be able to affirm that the code will be published in its draft form, as the House was told last night—[Interruption.] Hon. Members opposite have an obsession about this.

Mr. Orme: We have not seen it.

The Solicitor-General: If I may be allowed to tell hon. Members opposite, the right hon. Lady's Bill, introduced on 30th April last year, also made provision—

Mr. Orme: That has nothing to do with it.

The Solicitor-General: —and that code was to be laid before Parliament in exactly the same way as this code. But my right hon. Friend has given an additional undertaking that this code of practice will, in draft, be the subject of debate in the House. It is that code which will provide an additional set of rules to which management and employees will have to conform.
There can be no easy remedy available to bad management from this law. On the contrary, this law—

Mr. Heffer: rose—

The Solicitor-General: —will support and sustain good management. I turn now to another aspect—

Mr. Heffer: rose—

Sir Frederic Bennett: Positively his last appearance.

The Solicitor-General: May I comment now on the nature of the opposition from the trade union movement to this legislation? We are noting the growth of moderation in the attitude of the trade union movement towards this legislation. The country need not be unduly alarmed or dismayed by the reaction of the organised trade union movement as it is now being presented. In this country, as in others around the world, the organised labour movement is probably one of the most conservative of institutions.
It is worth remembering that in almost every other Western country where legislation of this kind has been introduced, it was the subject of massive protest at the time of its introduction. When Sweden's labour contract law was introduced in 1928, there was a demonstration outside the Parliament building of 400,000 people protesting about it. Today, that law is one within which the Swedish labour movement works and to which it is attached. It is well respected in that country. Similarly—

Mr. Orme: rose—

Mr. Russell Kerr: rose—

The Solicitor-General: No, I am not giving way. Similarly, in—

Mr. Orme: rose—

The Solicitor-General: No. The Government are confident that, with the passage of time, this Bill will redound to the greater security of industrial relations, and that our trade union movement will be glad to work and live with it. We recognise that the movement has an important rôle to play in the future of Britain, just as it has had in the past.
We assert from this side of the House that the laws within which industrial relations are to be conducted must be adapted to changing circumstances. The legislation with which we now live dates back to 1906. It may have been right at that time, but it is quite absurd to suggest that that legislation should survive and be right for us today.
Today, we can answer questions which were posed when the 1906 Bill was going through this House, 65 years ago this

week. The Attorney-General of the Liberal Government at that time asked these questions, and they are as relevant today as they were then:
Are we sure that it is wise to remove from these unions and particularly from their agents a sense of responsibility? Is it right that their agents should move about with the consciousness that, whatever they do, the property of the unions will not have to bear any loss? Is that feeling likely to produce caution, prudence, self-restraint and regard for the rights and feelings of others? Is it not likely to have rather the opposite effect?
The country can answer those questions today. The country knows that the time has come to change the archaic laws which have contributed to our present problems in industrial relations. The Leader of the Opposition and the right hon. Member for Blackburn know the answers to those questions, too. In their hearts, right hon. and hon. Members opposite know that we are right. So do the people.
I commend the Bill to the House.

Several Hon. Members: rose—

Mr. Speaker: Mr. Driberg.

Mr. Tom Driberg: We have just listened to one of the most deceitful and evasive speeches—[Interruption].

Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Driberg.

Mr. Driberg: We have just been forced to listen to one of the most deceitful and evasive speeches ever made in this Parliament. [Interruption.] The next Labour Government will have to repeal this shameful act pretty damn' quick—[Interruption.]—and this Government's display of the naked reality of the class war will shock the country.

It being Twelve o'clock, Mr. SPEAKER proceeded, pursuant to Standing Order No. 43 (Business Committee) and the Orders [25th January and 15th March], to put forthwith the Question already proposed from the Chair.

Question put, That the Bill be now read the Third time:—

The House proceeded to a Division—

Hon. Members: Drunk, drunk!

Mr. William Molloy: (seated and covered): On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Did you observe the


behaviour and the position of the Government Chief Whip who, as he entered the Chamber and stood at the Bar of the House, seemed to us to be in a drunken condition?

Mr. Speaker: Order. I have to put the Question now. I will come back to the point of order. The Question is. That the Bill be now read the Third time. As many as are of that opinion say "Aye", to the contrary "No".

Mr. Molloy: Before you had put the Question, Mr. Speaker, it seemed to us that the Government Chief Whip stood at the Bar of the House in a disgraceful drunken condition. I ask you, Sir, whether you would be good enough to defend the decorum of this House of Commons against this disgraceful and abominable behaviour when such an issue has been before the House. May I ask you whether you will give a Ruling on whether it is permissible even for the

Government Chief Whip to stand at the Bar of the House and conduct himself in a drunken manner?

Dr. M. S. Miller (Glasgow), Kelvin-grave): (seated and covered): Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. May I ask you whether it is in order for the Government Chief Whip to come into this House and treat such a large number of right hon. and hon. Members of the House to the jeering show that he put up when he stood at the Bar?

Mr. Speaker: With regard to those two points of order—first, I had to put the Question before I could take the points of order. I had no option. At this time of night, at the end of a very long and hard day's night, a lot of things happen, are said and done, and the less attention we pay to them the better.

We will now proceed with the Division.

The House divided: Ayes 307, Noes 269.

Division No. 335.]
AYES
[12 midnight


Adley, Robert
Chichester-Clark, R.
Fraser, Rt. Hn. Hugh (St'fford &amp; Stone)


Alison, Michael (Barkston Ash)
Churchill, W. S.
Fry, Peter


Allason, James (Hemel Hempstead)
Clark, William (Surrey, E.)
Galbraith, Hn. T. G.


Amery, Rt. Hn. Julian
Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe)
Gardner, Edward


Archer, Jeffrey (Louth)
Clegg, Walter
Gibson-Watt, David


Astor, John
Cockeram, Eric
Gilmour, Ian (Norfolk, C.)


Atkins, Humphrey
Cooke, Robert
Gilmour, Sir John (Fife, E.)


Awdry, Daniel
Coombs, Derek
Glyn, Dr. Alan


Baker, Kenneth (St. Marylebone)
Cooper, A. E.
Godber, Rt. Hn. J. B.


Baker, W. H. K. (Banff)
Cordle, John
Goodhart, Philip


Balniel, Lord
Corfield, Rt. Hn. Frederick
Goodhew, Victor


Barber, Rt. Hn. Anthony
Cormack, Patrick
Gorst, John


Batsford, Brian
Costain, A. P.
Gower, Raymond


Beamish, Col. Sir Tufton
Critchley, Julian
Grant, Anthony (Harrow, C.)


Bell, Ronald
Crouch, David
Gray, Hamish


Bennett, Sir Frederic (Torquay)
Crowder, F. P.
Green, Alan


Bennett, Dr. Reginald (Gosport)
Curran, Charles
Grieve, Percy


Benyon, W.
Davies, Rt. Hn. John (Knutsford)
Griffiths, Eldon (Bury St. Edmunds)


Berry, Hn. Anthony
d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Sir Henry
Grylls, Michael


Biffen, John
d'Avigdor-Goldsmid. Maj. -Gen. James
Gummer, Selwyn


Biggs-Davison, John
Dean, Paul
Gurden, Harold


Blaker, Peter
Deedes, Rt. Hn. W. F.
Hall, Miss Joan (Keighley)


Body, Richard
Digby, Simon Wingfield
Hall, John (Wycombe)


Boscawen, Robert
Dixon, Piers
Hall-Davis, A. G. F.


Bossom, Sir Clive
Dodds-Parker, Douglas
Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury)


Bowden, Andrew
Douglas-Home, Rt. Hn. Sir Alec
Hannam, John (Exeter)


Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hn. John
Drayson, G. B.
Harrison, Brian (Maldon)


Braine, Bernard
du Cann, Rt. Hn. Edward
Harrison, Col. Sir Harwood (Eye)


Bray, Ronald
Dykes, Hugh
Harvey, Sir Arthur Vere


Brewis, John
Eden, Sir John
Haselhurst, Alan


Brinton, Sir Tatton
Edwards, Nicholas (Pembroke)
Hastings, Stephen


Brocklebank-Fowler, Christopher
Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carshalton)
Havers, Michael


Brown, Sir Edward (Bath)
Elliott, R. W. (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne, N.)
Hawkins, Paul


Bruce-Gardyne, J.
Emery, Peter
Hay, John


Bryan, Paul
Farr, John
Hayhoe, Barney


Buchanan-Smith, Alick(Angus,N &amp; M)
Fell, Anthony
Heath, Rt. Hn. Edward


Buck, Antony
Fenner, Mrs. Peggy
Heseltine, Michael


Bullus, Sir Eric
Fidler, Michael
Hicks, Robert


Burden, F. A.
Finsberg, Geoffrey (Hampstead)
Higgins, Terence L.


Butler, Adam (Bosworth)
Fisher, Nigel (Surbiton)
Hiley, Joseph


Campbell, Rt.Hn.G.(Moray &amp; Nairn)
Fletcher-Cooke, Charles
Hill, John E. B. (Norfolk, S.)


Carlisle, Mark
Fookes, Miss Janet
Hill, James (Southampton, Test)


Carr, Rt. Hn. Robert
Fortescue, Tim
Holland, Philip


Channon, Paul
Foster, Sir John
Holt, Miss Mary


Chapman, Sydney
Fowler, Norman
Hordern, Peter


Chataway, Rt. Hn. Christopher
Fox, Marcus
Hornby, Richard




Hornsby-Smith, Rt. Hn. Dame Patricia
Molyneaux, James
Sinclair, Sir George


Howe, Hn. Sir Geoffrey (Reigate)
Money, Ernie
Skeet, T. H. H.


Howell, David (Guildford)
Monks, Mrs. Connie
Smith, Dudley (W'wick &amp; L'mington)


Howell, Ralph (Norfolk, N.)
Monro, Hector
Soref, Harold


Hunt, John
Montgomery, Fergus
Speed, Keith


Hutchison, Michael Clark
Morgan, Geraint (Denbigh)
Spence, John


Iremonger, T. L.
Morgan-Giles, Rear-Adm.
Sproat, Ian


James, David
Morrison, Charles (Devizes)
Stanbrook, Ivor


Jenkin, Patrick (Woodford)
Mudd, David
Stewart-Smith, D. G. (Belper)


Jessel, Toby
Murton, Oscar
Stodart, Anthony (Edinburgh, W.)


Johnson Smith, G. (E. Grinstead)
Nabarro, Sir Gerald
Stoddart-Scott, Col. Sir M.


Jones, Arthur (Northants, S.)
Neave, Airey
Stokes, John


Jopling, Michael
Nicholls, Sir Harmar
Stuttaford, Dr. Tom


Joseph, Rt. Hn. Sir Keith
Noble, Rt. Hn. Michael
Sutcliffe, John


Kaberry, Sir Donald
Normanton, Tom
Tapsell, Peter


Kellett, Mrs. Elaine
Nott, John
Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne)


Kershaw, Anthony
Onslow, Cranley
Taylor, Edward M.(G'gow, Cathcart)


Kimball, Marcus
Oppenheim, Mrs. Sally
Taylor, Frank (Moss Side)


King, Evelyn (Dorset, S.)
Orr, Capt. L. P. S.
Taylor, Robert (Croydon, N.W.)


King, Tom (Bridgwater)
Osborn, John
Tebbit, Norman


Kinsey, J. R.
Owen, Idris (Stockport, N.)
Temple, John M.


Kirk, Peter
Page, Graham (Crosby)
Thatcher, Rt. Hn. Mrs. Margaret


Kitson, Timothy
Page, John (Harrow, W.)
Thomas, John Stradling (Monmouth)


Knight, Mrs Jill
Parkinson, Cecil (Enfield, W.)
Thomas, Rt. Hn. Peter (Hendon, S.)


Knox, David
Percival, Ian
Thompson, Sir Richard (Croydon, S.)


Lambton, Antony
Peyton, Rt. Hn. John
Tilney, John


Lane, David
Pike, Miss Mervyn
Trafford, Dr. Anthony


Langford-Holt, Sir John
Pink, R. Bonner
Trew, Peter


Legge-Bourke, Sir Harry
Pounder, Rafton
Tugendhat, Christopher


Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland)
Powell, Rt. Hn. J. Enoch
Turton, Rt. Hn. R. H.


Lloyd, Ian (P'tsm'th, Langstone)
Price, David (Eastleigh)
van Straubenzee, W. R.


Longden, Gilbert
Prior, Rt. Hn. J. M. L.
Vaughan, Dr. Gerard


Loveridge, John
Proudfoot, Wilfred
vickers, Dame Joan


McAdden, Sir Stephen
Pym, Rt. Hn. Francis
Waddington, David


MacArthur, Ian
Quennell, Miss J. M.
Walder, David (Clitheroe)


McCrindle, R. A.
Raison, Timothy
Walker, Rt. Hn. Peter (Worcester)


McLaren, Martin
Ramsden, Rt. Hn. James
Wall, Patrick


Maclean, Sir Fitzroy
Reed, Laurance (Bolton, E.)
Walters, Dennis


McMaster, Stanley
Rees, Peter (Dover)
Ward, Dame Irene


Macmillan, Maurice (Farnham)
Rees-Davies, W. R.
Warren, Kenneth


McNair-Wilson, Michael
Renton, Rt. Hn. Sir David
Weatherill, Bernard


McNair-Wilson, Patrick (NewForest)
Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon
Wells, John (Maidstone)


Maddan, Martin
Ridley, Hn. Nicholas
White, Roger (ravesend)


Madel, David
Ridsdale, Julian
Whitelaw, Rt. Hn. William


Maginnis, John E.
Rippon, Rt. Hn. Geoffrey
Wiggin, Jerry


Marten, Neil
Roberts, Michael (Cardiff, N.)
Wilkinson, John


Mather, Carol
Roberts, Wyn (Conway)
Wolrige-Gordon, Patrick


Maude, Angus
Rodgers, Sir John (Sevenoaks)
Wood, Rt. Hn. Richard


Maudling, Rt. Hn. Reginald
Rossi, Hugh (Hornsey)
Woodhouse, Hn. Christopher


Mawby, Ray
Rost, Peter
Woodnutt, Mark


Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J.
Russell, Sir Ronald
Worsley, Marcus


Meyer, Sir Anthony
St. John-Stevas, Norman
Wylie, Rt. Hn. N. R.


Mills, Peter (Torrington)
Scott, Nicholas
Younger, Hn. George


Mills, Stratton (Belfast, N.)
Scott-Hopkins, James



Miscampbell, Norman
Sharples, Richard
TELLERS FOR THE AYES:


Mitchell, Lt.-Col. C. (Aberdeenshire, W)
Shaw, Michael (Sc'b'gh &amp; Whitby)
Mr. Reginald Eyre and


Mitchell, David (Basingstoke)
Shelton, William (Clapham)
Mr. Jasper More.


Moate, Roger
Simeons, Charles





NOES


Abse, Leo
Brown, Bob (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne, W.)
Crossman, Rt. Hn. Richard


Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.)
Brown, Hugh D. (G'gow, Provan)
Cunningham, George(Islington, S.W.)


Allen, Scholefield
Brown, Ronald (Shoreditch &amp; F'bury)
Dalyell, Tam


Archer, Peter (Rowley Regis)
Buchan, Norman
Darling, Rt. Hn. George


Armstrong, Ernest
Buchanan, Richard (G'gow, Sp'burn)
Davidson, Arthur


Ashley, Jack
Butler, Mrs. Joyce (Wood Green)
Davies, Denzil (Llanelly)


Ashton, Joe
Campbell, I. (Dunbartonshire, W.)
Davies, G. Elfed (Rhondda, E.)


Atkinson, Norman
Cant, R. B.
Davies, Ifor (Gower)


Bagier, Gordon A. T.
Carmichael, Neil
Davis, Clinton (Hackney, C.)


Barnes, Michael
Carter, Ray (Birmingh'm, Northfield)
Deakins, Eric


Barnett, Joel
Carter-Jones, Lewis (Eccles)
Delargy, H. J.


Beaney, Alan
Castle, Rt. Hn. Barbara
Dell, Rt. Hn. Edmund


Benn, Rt. Hn. Anthony Wedgwood
Clark, David (Colne Valley)
Dempsey, James


Bennett, James (Glasgow, Bridgeton)
Cocks, Michael (Bristol, S.)
Devlin, Miss Bernadette


Bidwell, Sydney
Cohen, Stanley
Doig, Peter


Bishop, E. S.
Concannon, J. D.
Dormand, J. D,


Blenkinsop, Arthur
Conlan, Bernard
Douglas, Dick (Stirlingshire, E.)


Boardman, H. (Leigh)
Corbet, Mrs. Freda
Douglas-Mann, Bruce


Booth, Albert
Cox, Thomas (Wandsworth, C.)
Driberg, Tom


Bottomley, Rt. Hn. Arthur
Crawshaw, Richard
Duffy, A. E. P.


Boyden, James (Bishop Auckland)
Cronin, John
Dunnett, Jack


Bradley, Tom
Crosland, Rt. Hn. Anthony
Eadie, Alex







Edelman, Maurice
Latham, Arthur
Prescott, John


Edwards, Robert (Bilston)
Lawson, George
Price, J. T. (Westhoughton)


Edwards, William (Merioneth)
Leadbitter, Ted
Price, William (Rugby)


Ellis, Tom
Lee, Rt. Hn. Frederick
Probert, Arthur


English, Michael
Leonard, Dick
Rankin, John


Fernyhough, Rt. Hn. E.
Lestor, Miss Joan
Reed, D. (Sedgefield)


Fisher, Mrs. Doris(B'ham, Ladywood)
Lever, Rt. Hn. Harold
Roes, Merlyn (Leeds, S.)


Fitch, Alan (Wigan)
Lewis, Arthur (W. Ham, N.)
Rhodes, Geoffrey


Fletcher, Raymond (Ilkeston)
Lewis, Ron (Carlisle)
Richard, Ivor


Fletcher, Ted (Darlington)
Lipton, Marcus
Roberts, Albert (Normanton)


Foley, Maurice
Lomas, Kenneth
Roberts, Rt. Hn. Goronwy (Caernarvon)


Foot, Michael
Loughlin, Charles
Robertson, John (Paisley)


Ford, Ben
Lyon, Alexander W. (York)
Roderick, Caerwyn E.(Br'c'n &amp; R'dnor)


Forrester, John
Lyons, Edward (Bradford, E.)
Rodgers, William (Stockton-on-Tees)


Fraser, John (Norwood)
Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson
Roper, John


Freeson, Reginald
McBride, Neil
Rose, Paul B.


Garrett, W. E.
McCartney, Hugh
Ross, Rt. Hn. William (Kilmarnock)


Gilbert, Dr. John
MacColl, James
Sheldon, Robert (Ashton-under-Lyne)


Ginsburg, David
McElhone, Frank
Shore, Rt. Hn. Peter (Stepney)


Gordon Walker, Rt. Hn. P. C.
McGuire, Michael
Short, Mrs. Renee (W'hampton, N.E.)


Gourlay, Harry
Mackenzie, Gregor
Silkin, Rt. Hn. John (Deptford)


Grant, George (Morpeth)
Mackie, John
Sillars, James


Grant, John D. (Islington, E.)
Mackintosh, John P.
Silverman, Julius


Griffiths, Eddie (Brightside)
Maclennan, Robert
Skinner, Dennis


Griffiths, Will (Exchange)
McMillan, Tom (Glasgow, C.)
Small, William


Grimond, Rt. Hn. J.
McNamara, J. Kevin
Smith, John (Lanarkshire, N.)


Hamilton, James (Bothwell)
MacPherson, Malcolm
Spearing, Nigel


Hamilton, William (Fife, W.)
Mahon, Simon Bootle)
Spriggs, Leslie


Hamling, William
Mallalieu, J. P. W. (Huddersfield, E.)
Stallard, A. W.


Hannan, William (G'gow, Maryhill)
Marks, Kenneth
Steel, David


Hardy, Peter
Marquand, David
Stewart, Rt. Hn. Michael (Fulham)


Harper, Joseph
Marsh, Rt. Hn. Richard
Stoddart, David (Swindon)


Harrison, Walter (Wakefield)
Mason, Rt. Hn. Roy
Stonehouse, Rt. Hn. John


Hart, Rt. Hn. Judith
Meacher, Michael
Strang, Gavin


Hattersley, Roy
Mellish, Rt. Hn. Robert
Strauss, Rt. Hn. G. R.


Healey, Rt. Hn. Denis
Mendelson, John
Summerskill, Hn. Dr. Shirley


Heffer, Eric S.
Mikardo, Ian
Swain, Thomas


Hooson, Emlyn
Millan, Bruce
Taverne, Dick


Horam, John
Miller, Dr. M. S.
Thomas, Rt. Hn. George (Cardiff, W.)


Houghton, Rt. Hn. Douglas
Milne, Edward (Blyth)
Thomas, Jeffrey (Abertillery)


Howell, Denis (Small Heath)
Molloy, William
Thomson, Rt. Hn. G. (Dundee, E.)


Huckfield, Leslie
Morgan, Elystan (Cardiganshire)
Thorpe, Rt. Hn. Jeremy


Hughes, Rt. Hn. Cledwyn (Anglesey)
Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe)
Tinn, James


Hughes, Mark (Durham)
Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw)
Tomney, Frank


Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen, N.)
Morris, Rt. Hn. John (Aberavon)
Torney, Tom


Hunter, Adam
Moyle, Roland
Tuck, Raphael


Irvine, Rt. Hn. Sir Arthur (Edge Hill)
Mulley, Rt. Hn. Frederick
Urwin, T. W.


Janner, Greville
Murray, Ronald King
Varley, Eric G.


Jay, Rt. Hn. Douglas
Ogden, Eric
Wainwright, Edwin


Jeger, Mrs. Lena (H'b'n &amp; St. P'cras, S.)
O'Halloran, Michael
Walden, Brian (B'm'ham All Saints)


Jenkins, Hugh (Putney)
O'Malley, Brian
Walker, Harold (Doncaster)


Jenkins, Rt. Hn. Roy (Stechford)
Oram, Bert
Wallace, George


John, Brynmor
Orbach, Maurice
Watkins, David


Johnson, Carol (Lewisham, S.)
Orme, Stanley
Weitzman, David


Johnson, James (K'ston-on-Hull, W.)
Oswald, Thomas
Wellbeloved, James


Johnson, Walter (Derby, 8.)
Owen, Dr. David (Plymouth, Sutton)
Wells, William (Walsall, N.)


Johnston, Russell (Inverness)
Padley, Walter
White, James (Glasgow, Pollok)


Jones, Barry, (Flint, E.)
Paget, R. T.
Whitehead, Phillip


Jones, Dan (Burnley)
Palmer, Arthur
Whitlock, William


Jones, Rt. Hn. SirElwyn (W. Ham, S.)
Pannell, Rt. Hn. Charles
Willey, Rt. Hn. Frederick


Jones, Gwynoro (Carmarthen)
Pardoe, John
Williams, Alan (Swansea, W.)


Jones, T. Alec (Rhondda, W.)
Parker, John (Dagenham)
Williams, W. T. (Warrington)


Judd, Frank
Parry, Robert (Liverpool, Exchange)
Wilson, Alexander (Hamilton)


Kaufman, Gerald
Pavitt, Laurie
Wilson, Rt. Hn. Harold (Huyton)


Kelley, Richard
Peart, Rt. Hn. Fred
Wilson, William (Coventry, S.)


Kerr, Russell
Pendry, Tom



Kinnock, Neil
Pentland, Norman
TELLERS FOR THE NOES:


Lambie, David
Perry, Ernest G.
Mr. John Golding and


Lamond, James
Prentice, Rt. Hn. Reg.
Mr. Donald Coleman.

Bill accordingly read the Third time, and passed.

HISTORIC TOWNS (CONSERVATION)

Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn. —[Mr. Clegg.]

12. 13 a. m.

Mr. Alexander W. Lyon: I am delighted to have such a goodly audience on the subject of conservation. If they would all clear off we could get down to the debate.
It is refreshing to change from the subject we have been discussing over the past few weeks to one of a more civilised nature, namely, the conservation of historic cities. I am only sorry that it has taken so long for this debate to come on. I have been applying for it since 1st January, when the Government announced their decision in relation to the Report of the Preservation Policy Group in response to the studies of four towns. The great regret which I feel
about that response is that they declined to make a firm decision at this time about the 50 per cent. conservation grant which was recommended in the Report for conservation in historic towns and which had been accepted by the last Government.
I had some considerable part in persuading the last Government and, through them, the Treasury, to give that promise of a 50 per cent. grant, I am deeply disappointed that the change of Government has robbed us of the immediate implementation of that policy. It is true that the Government have not yet said that they will refuse the grant; they have said that they will await the result of the four towns trial schemes.
The object of the four towns studies, which were initiated by my right hon. Friend the Member for Coventry, East (Mr. Crossman), when he was Minister of Housing and Local Government, was to begin to prepare a national policy for the conservation of historic towns as distinct from conservation of particular historic buildings. We have had an historic buildings programme for many years. We have not had the conservation of whole areas. The French have adopted a national policy which is rightly regarded as being the best in the world. What I think my right hon. Friend wanted to do was start us towards a similar

national policy and to do it by looking at the problems on the ground through the four towns.

Sir Harmar Nicholls: Does it reinforce the hon. Gentleman's point when I say that the important and historic cathedral town of Peterborough, with its ancient industry of the loco sheds, ought to have a transport and railway museum?

Mr. Lyon: I knew when the hon. Gentleman was sitting on the edge of his seat that it would be a mistake to give way to him. He has now made his point for tomorrow's headline in the Peterborough Echo. He should not get us on to that argument, which he is bound to lose, as he loses every other argument.
If we begin to found a national policy on the results of the four towns tests, and the four towns schemes are not conducted properly, then the national policy
which we erect upon them in certain foundations will be a bad policy. I want to get out of the Government an assurance that all the resources required will be made available to the four towns to see that the schemes are implemented properly. I deeply fear, from my experience in the City of York, that what will happen is that the local authority will be made to carry out a trial scheme with such resources as it has in hand itself and with such grants as are now available in the form of dereliction grants and so on, which will be inadequate to carry out a proper scheme.
If the Government will say that in relation to this four towns scheme that they will make up the difference between what the local authority can find from its own resources and from the general grant and what is required to carry out a proper scheme, I for one would be not too unhappy that they have so far put off the implementation of the 50 per cent. conservation grant.
I said, in response to the parsimonious attitude of the Treasury, that we should not even have a decent trial scheme on which to erect a national policy. National policy is of crucial importance. Too many ancient and historic cities are disappearing at too great a rate, precisely because we have no national policy. [HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear.] I see almost unanimous support in the House


for this approach. I hope the Government are recognising this, because this response from all parts of the House is echoed from all parts of the country.
I know that delay in implementing the 50 per cent. conservation grant was met with considerable criticism from many interested bodies throughout the country and I hope the Government will at least give them the encouragement I seek: that they will see that the trial schemes are carried out properly.
In York, Lord Esher proposed a conservation plan which would have cost, on his estimate, £2·1 million for conservation and on the local authority's estimate, £3·3 million, within a total scheme of improvements in the city which would have required something of the order of £27 million. Allowing for Government contribution in grant for roads and so on, this would have been reduced to a net cost for the local authority of about £13 million. The product of a penny rate in York is £15, 000, far lower than many comparable cities of similar size, and this therefore cannot rest solely on the local authority. It cannot shoulder this burden. York is one of the jewels of European civilisation.
It cannot be said that one local authority with these inadequate resources should be left to carry that burden for the whole country. It requires the benefit of the support of the rest of the country, and therefore, when these schemes were propounded, we looked with interest to see what Lord Esher would propose. He has proposed some improvements about the city, but in particular, three study areas which require urgent attention, the first of which the local authority is proposing now to set in motion with Lord Esher as consultant architect and which will cost about £1·5 million, over about four or five years. We simply cannot raise that £1·5 million from our resources. I do not believe it can be raised from the rate and present forms of grant. I want to, know how much of the cost of the whole York scheme the Government are prepared to put up.
This is the crucial question, because if the local authority finds that the Government are not prepared to meet the difference, I know what will happen. The local authority will decide to have a skimped scheme completely inadequate for our needs.
I hope to get a straightforward reply and that the Minister will not rest content on the assertion that the historic buildings grant is going up this year. That was intended by the last Government too and it was their promise that it would go up to £700, 000, but the historic buildings grant relates only to the buildings in the conservation area. Conservation is not simply preservation of existing buildings. Conservation is distraction of what is bad, as well as keeping what is good There is much within the conservation area of York which needs to be torn down, and in order to do that we have to buy existing debilitated housing and factories. That is why we need these resources.
I offered hon. Members opposite a chance to get in on my debate, even though I have waited so long for it, and I therefore now sit down with their approval.

12. 25 a. m.

Mr. David James: After what has happened in the last 48 hours, the hon. Member for York (Mr. Alexander W. Lyon) deserves every credit for his stamina in raising this matter. My constituency contains the Saxon town of Shaftesbury which has been in business for 1, 400 years, Wimborne, which has had a minster for 1, 000 years, and Blandford Forum which was burned down in 1332.
I must associate myself with what the hon. Member said, but I should like to go even further because it is germane to the debate to say that Dorset is studded with villages like Child Okeford, Sixpenny Handley, Glanvilles Wootton and Piddletrenthide.
What worries me is the lorries which are slowly destroying these villages by going through at 30 to 40 miles an hour.

12. 27 a. m.

Sir Harmar Nicholls: I accept the principle of the argument of the hon. Member for York (Mr. Alexander W. Lyon) and I disagree with only one sentence. He said that conservation included the destruction of what was bad. I think that he meant to say that it included the replacement of what was bad rather than its destruction.
In my constituency there is the ancient town of Oundle which has a great reputation and which is in danger of being reduced to rubble because of the heavy traffic of the modern transport age. I hope that my hon. Friend will see that bypasses are built around ancient towns such as Oundle as soon as possible so as to preserve a national heritage in the best national interest.

12. 28 a. m.

Sir John Rodgers: As one who was bred and born in the City of York, I congratulate the hon. Member for York (Mr. Alexander W. Lyon) on the excellent way in which he has put a case for the conservation of that city along the lines recommended by Lord Esher. It is true that there will be no future along the lines of this report unless the Government are prepared to make special grants for the conservation of this great city, which in any other part of Europe would be a city to which pilgrimages would be made; in England we tend not to do that. I hope that the Minister will consider a by-pass around York and similar cities and towns. This would help to preserve the town which should be regarded as the jewel of Europe it undoubtedly is.

Mr. Patrick Cormack: About £700, 000 is given to the conservation of historic buildings and this amount which the hon. Member for York (Mr. Alexander W. Lyon) mentioned is totally derisory. I hope that the Government will realise that the conservation of our heritage is something which we cannot afford to neglect. We have to think in terms of providing realistic sums to assist with the maintenance of buildings, including churches, which need restoring.

12. 30 a. m.

Mr. Norman Atkinson: In the absence of any other voices on this side of the House I must assure hon. Members opposite that the majority of hon. Members on this side of the House endorse the ideas which have been put forward by my hon. Friend the Member for York (Mr. Alexander W. Lyon). They are reinforced by the fact that they are Labour Party policy. All of us support the arguments of my hon. Friend. We hope that the Minister will be able

to concede some of Lord Esher's argument on the preservation of this magnificent town.

12. 32 a. m.

The Under-Secretary of State for the Environment (Mr. Michael Heseltine): Of one thing there can be no doubt. If the House, in the course of the last few weeks, had been able to get through six speeches in ten minutes as we have now we would have made much better progress than we did. There is no doubt in these debates of the general consensus amongst hon. Members who take part in them about the need to take issues seriously, to try to find policies which will achieve the sort of results we all have in mind. There is no doubt that the House is familiar with the four cities and the towns involved with the studies in Bath, Chester, Chichester and York. The consequences of the review of these four centres is again involved in the Preservation Policy Group's report which has been referred to.
The recommendations of the group form the basis of the present Government's policies for the conservation of historic towns. The group originally recommended that pilot schemes should be carried out in the four cities involved and the present situation is to find detailed, specific proposals for the projects in which the Department can participate, if we can select these particular schemes from a general programme of conservation which is being undertaken by the four towns in question.
The group also recommended that legislation should be placed on the Statute Book to enable local authorities which submitted a new type of general conservation scheme to be paid Exchequer grant to meet 50 per cent. of the deficiency on their operation. As the Government have announced, we believe that a decision on this recommendation would be premature until we have looked at these detailed proposals as a result of the further carrying out of the pilot schemes now under way.

Mr. Ernie Money: Would my hon. Friend bear in mind, on behalf of the Government, that time is not on our side and, over and over again, many of our great cities are dying on their feet through planning blight?

Mr. Heseltine: The question of planning blight is another matter and I would not for a moment disagree with my hon. Member. There are very real difficulties. The whole approach to this problem in-voles meeting difficulties such as derelict land, roads, land usage and other matters so necessary to get the comprehensive legislation we all want to see.
One of the recommendations of the group was that the Historic Building Council annual allocation should be increased and I can confirm on behalf of the Government the present increase from £575, 000 to £700, 000 which is a major increase—

Mr. Money: It is not enough.

Mr. Heseltine: —and there is certainly no question of any reduction being envisaged. I would say to my hon. Friends and hon Members opposite that in these maters it is always fair to say that it is not enough. Broadly speaking in the Department of the Environment we are seeking to find ways of increasing the sums concerned. The fact is that there are constraints on public expenditure and we can only spend what we earn. Increases have to be earned before they can be authorised.

Sir Harmar Nicholls: It is an urgent matter.

Mr. Heseltine: I do not dissent from that. That is why we are all involved in these projects. The Preservation Policy Group recommended two other possibilities that further Government assistance towards local authority expenditure on listed buildings should be encouraged and that there should be Government guarantees of building society advances on historic houses. Again I give the House the assurance we are looking into these.
The group also said that local planning authorities should be given the power to charge the owner when they repair unoccupied listed buildings which need emergency repairs. Hon. Members will be aware that there is a private Members' Bill going through the House dealing with this point, and in an intervention on Second Reading I had the opportunity of expressing the Government's real support for the concept embodied in that Bill.
The next point was that where people are encouraging listed buildings to fall

down in order to realise their break-up value, certain powers should be vested in local authorities to move in and prevent this. I confirm what I said earlier—that the Government accept that there must be powers to deal with that situation.
A number of other suggestions included the production of a series of reference books by the English Tourist Board, and I understand that that is in hand. My hon. Friend the Member for Peterborough (Sir Harmar Nicholls) and others asked about roads and the benefits which can flow from bypasses. The Government are reviewing their road programme and we propose the publication of a White Paper in the not-too-distant future. I do not want to anticipate its contents but I will see that the Secretary of State is made fully aware of the valuable points which my hon. Friend made.
I fully accept that the question of the specific funds for the York conservation project is important and the hon. Member for York (Mr. Alexander W. Lyon) will be delighted to know that on 23rd March—which as far as I remember is yesterday or today—officials of the Department were in York for discussions on this complex situation with the local authorities concerned. There is a difficulty which we in no way wish to avoid mentioning: the Government are determined to try to give local authorities the maximum control over their own expenditure and it is therefore for the local authorities to decide how a considerable part of their revenue is spent.

Mr. Lyon: The hon. Member has six Ministers from the Department beside him, so that they could make a decision. All we want is the difference between what the local authority can raise from its own resources and what is necessary to do a good scheme as distinct from a a bad scheme. If the Government will say that they will pay that, whatever it is, we can all go home.

Sir Harmar Nicholls: Where are the hon. Gentleman's Front Bench spokesmen?

Mr. Lyon: I can deal with the case adequately without my Front Bench. Are the Government prepared to make up the difference between what the local authority can raise and what it will cost up to, if need be, 50 per cent. of the total cost?

Mr. Heseltine: Perhaps I should explain that all the Ministers in the Department have spent the last 24 hours trudging through the Division Lobbies. That has precluded us from discussing with the officials what they were talking about in York with the local authorities. I give an assurance that if we get home tonight, we shall discuss that with them tomorrow in order that all the difficulties may be communicated from the officials to my right hon. Friend.
We must also remember the increased attention the Government are paying to the question of derelict land. Many authorities are likely to have derelict land and the Government have made it clear that we want to encourage local authorities to press ahead as fast as possible with schemes to deal with it. That is another contribution which can be made by local authority initiative.
May I conclude with a generalisation which is crucial? The Government have indicated in their policy that they look to the local authorities themselves to take the initiative in these general conservation matters within their own boundaries. It is vital to stress that the Government look to local authorities to take the initiative and then to discuss with the Government the part which the Govern-

ment can play. It is not an area in which the Government take the initiative, but the Government will lend what support they can to the local authority initiatives.

Mr. Cormack: We are much heartened by what my hon. Friend has said, but could not the Department produce a blueprint for conservation dealing with all these matters on a comprehensive scale?

Mr. Heseltine: Of course, this is absolutely why the four cities are going ahead with projects and why we are so keen to find out exactly the best way in which the sort of initiatives to which my hon. Friend refers can be taken by the Government.
I would conclude by saying that there is obviously no dissent at all in the House about the vital contribution which all of us want to make to this kind of issue which is so important to amenity. I am most grateful to the hon. Member for York for raising the matter and for the valuable contributions made with such commendable brevity by my hon. Friends.

Question put and agreed to.

Adjourned accordingly at nineteen minutes to One o'clock.

INDUSTRIAL RELATIONS BILL

Division No. 293.]
AYES
[3.10 a.m.


Adley, Robert
Gower, Raymond
Pink, R. Bonner


Allason, James (Hemel Hempstead)
Gray, Hamish
Powell, Rt. Hn. J. Enoch


Archer, Jeffrey (Louth)
Green, Alan
Prior, Rt. Hn. J. M. L.


Astor, John
Gummer, Selwyn
Pym, Rt. Hn. Francis


Atkins, Humphrey
Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury)
Raison, Timothy


Baker, Kenneth (St. Marylebone)
Hannam, John (Exeter)
Reed, Laurance (Bolton, E.)


Baker, W. H. K. (Banff)
Haselhurst, Alan
Rees, Peter (Dover)


Balniel, Lord
Havers, Michael
Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon


Berry, Hn. Anthony
Hawkins, Paul
Ridley, Hn. Nicholas


Biffen, John
Hayhoe, Barney
Roberts, Michael (Cardiff, N.)


Biggs-Davison, John
Heseltine, Michael
Roberts, Wyn (Conway)


Boardman, Tom (Leicester, S. W.)
Hicks, Robert
Rossi, Hugh (Hornsey)


Body, Richard
Hiley, Joseph
Rost, Peter


Bossom, Sir dive
Hill, James (Southampton, Test)
Russell, Sir Ronald


Bowden, Andrew
Holland, Philip
St. John-Stevas, Norman


Bray, Ronald
Hordern, Peter
Scott, Nicholas


Brewis, John
Hornby, Richard
Scott-Hopkins, James


Bruce-Gardyne, J.
Hornsby-Smith, Rt. Hn. Dame Patricia
Sharpies, Richard


Buchanan-Smith, Alick(Angus, N&amp;M)
Howe, Hn. Sir Geoffrey (Reigate)
Shaw, Michael (Sc'b'gh &amp; Whitby)


Buck, Antony
Howell, David (Guildford)
Shelton, William (Clapham)


Bullus, Sir Eric
Howell, Ralph (Norfolk, N.)
Simeons, Charles


Butler, Adam (Bosworth)
Hunt, John
Sinclair, Sir George


Campbell, Rt. Hn. C. (Moray &amp;Nairn)
Hutchison, Michael Clark
Skeet, T. H. H.


Carr, Rt. Hn. Robert
James, David
Smith, Dudley (W'w ck&amp; L'mington)


Cary, Sir Robert
Jessel, Toby
Speed, Keith


Channon, Paul
Jones, Arthur (Northants, S.)
Spence, John


Chapman, Sydney
Jopling, Michael
Sproat, Iain


Chataway, Rt. Hn. Christopher
Kimball, Marcus
Stainton, Keith



Kinsey, J. R.
Stanbrook, Ivor


Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe)
Kitson, Timothy
Stewart-Smith, D. G. (Belper)


Clegg, Walter
Knight, Mrs. Jill
Stuttaford, Dr. Tom


Cockeram, Eric
Knox, David
Sutcliffe, John


Cooke, Robert
Lane, David
Tapsell, Peter


Coombs, Derek
Langford-Holt, Sir John
Taylor, Edward M. (G'gow, Cathcart)


Cormack, Patrick
Le Marchant, Spencer
Taylor, Robert (Croydon, N. W.)


Costain, A. P.
Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland)
Tebbit, Norman


Critchley, Julian
McLaren, Martin
Thomas, John Stradling (Monmouth)


Crouch, David
McMaster, Stanley
Thomas, Rt. Hn. Peter (Hendon, S.)


Curran, Charles
McNair-Wilson, Michael
Trafford, Dr. Anthony


d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Maj. -Gen. James
McNair-Wilson, Patrick (New Forest)
Trew, Peter


Dean, Paul
Maddan, Martin
Tugendhat, Christopher


Dodds-Parker, Douglas
Madel, David
van Straubenzee, W. R.


Drayson, G. B.
Maginnis, John E.
Vaughan, Dr. Gerard


Eden, Sir John
Marten, Neil
Vickers, Dame Joan


Edwards, Nicholas (Pembroke)
Mawby, Ray
Waddington, David


Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carshalton)
Meyer, Sir Anthony
Walder, David (Clitheroe)


Elliott, R. W. (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne, N.)
Mills, Peter (Torrington)
Walters, Dennis


Emery, Peter
Miscampbell, Norman
Ward, Dame Irene


Eyre, Reginald
Mitchell, Lt. Col. C. (Aberdeenshire, W)
Warren, Kenneth


Farr, John
Mitchell, David (Basingstoke)
Weatherill, Bernard


Pell, Anthony
Moate, Roger
Wells, John (Maidstone)


Fidler, Michael
Molyneaux, James
White, Roger (Gravesend)


Finsberg, Geoffrey (Hampstead)
Money, Ernie
Whitelaw, Rt. Hn. William


Fisher, Nigel (Surbiton)
Monro, Hector
Wiggin, Jerry


Fookes, Miss Janet
Montgomery, Fergus
Wilkinson, John


Fowler, Norman
Morgan, Geraint (Denbigh)
Wolrige-Gordon, Patrick


Fox, Marcus
Mudd, David
Wood, Rt. Hn. Richard


Fraser, Rt. Hn. Hugh(St'fford &amp;Stone)
Murton, Oscar
Woodhouse, Hn. Christopher


Fry, Peter
Noble, Rt. Hn. Michael
Woodnutt, Mark


Gardner, Edward
Normanton, Tom
Worsley, Marcus


Gibson-Watt, David
Oppenheim, Mrs. Sally
Wylic, Rt. Hn. N. R.


Gilmour, Ian (Norfolk, C.)
Osborn, John



Gilmour, Sir John (Fife, E.)
Owen, Idris (Stockport, N.)
TELLERS FOR THE AYES:


Goodhart, Philip
Parkinson, Cecil (Enfield, W.)
Mr. Jasper More and


Goodhew, Victor
Percival, Ian
Mr. Tim Fortescue.


Gorst, John
Pike, Miss Mervyn





NOES


Archer, Peter (Rowley Regis)
Clark, David (Colne Valley)
Davies, G. Elfed (Rhondda, E.)


Ashton, Joe
Cocks, Michael (Bristol, S.)
Davis, Clinton (Hackney, C.)


Atkinson, Norman
Cohen, Stanley
Deakins, Eric


Benn, Rt. Hn. Anthony Wedgwood
Concannon, J. D.
Dempsey, James


Brown, Bob (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne, W.)
Crawshaw, Richard
Douglas, Dick (Stirlingshire, E.)


Buchanan, Richard (C'gow, Sp'burn)
Cronin, John
Duffy, A. E. P.


Cant, R. B.
Cunningham, G. (Islington, S. W.)
Dunnett, Jack


Carter, Ray (Birmingh'm, Northfield)
Dalyell, Tam
Eadie, Alex







English, Michael
Leadbitter, Ted
Roberts, Rt. Hn. Goronwy (Caernarvon)


Fernyhough, Rt. Hn. E.
Lewis, Arthur (W. Ham N.)
Roderick, Caerwyn E. (Br'c'n&amp;R'dnor)


Fisher, Mrs. Doris(B'ham, Ladywood)
Lewis, Ron (Carlisle)
Rodgers, William (Stockton-on-Tees)


Fitch, Alan (Wigan)
Lipton, Marcus
Roper, John


Fletcher, Ted (Darlington)
Lomas, Kenneth
Rose, Paul B.


Foot, Michael
McBride, Neil
Ross, Rt. Hn. William (Kilmarnock)


Forrester, John
McCartney, Hugh
Silkin, Rt. Hn. John (Deptford)


Fraser, John (Norwood)
Mackenzie, Gregor
Sillars, James


Gilbert, Dr. John
Mackintosh, John P.
Silverman, Julius


Grant, George (Morpeth)
McNamara, J. Kevin
Skinner, Dennis


Grant, John D. (Islington, E.)
Mahon, Simon (Bootle)
Small, William


Hannan, William (G'gow, Maryhill)
Mallalieu, J. P. W. (Huddersfield. E.)
Spearing, Nigel


Hardy, Peter
Marks, Kenneth
Stallard, A. W.


Harper, Joseph
Mellish, Rt. Hn. Robert
Stewart, Rt. Hn. Michael (Fulham)


Harrison, Walter (Wakefield)
Mendelson, John
Stoddart, David (Swindon)


Heffer, Eric S.
Millan, Bruce
Strang, Gavin


Huckfield, Leslie
Miller, Dr. M. S.
Swain, Thomas


Hughes, Mark (Durham)
Molloy, William
Thomson, Rt. Hn. G. (Dundee, E.)


Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen, N.)
Morgan, Elystan (Cardiganshire)
Torney, Tom


Hughes, Roy (Newport)
Morris, Charles (Openshaw)
Walden, Brian (B'm'ham, All Saints)


Janner, Greville
Morris, Rt. Hn. John (Aberavon)
Walker, Harold (Doncaster)


Jay, Rt. Hn. Douglas
Murray, Ronald King
Wellbeloved, James


John, Brynmor
Ogden, Eric
Whitehead, Phillip


Jones, Barry (Flint, E.)
O'Halloran, Michael
Wilson, Alexander (Hamilton)


Jones, Gwynoro (Carmarthen)
Orme, Stanley
Wilson, Rt. Hn. Harold (Huyton)


Jones, T. Alec (Rhondda, W.)
Palmer, Arthur
Wilson, William (Coventry, S.)


Judd, Frank
Parry, Robert (Liverpool, Exchange)



Kaufman, Gerald
Pendry, Tom
TELLERS FOR THE NOES:


Kerr, Russell
Prescott, John
Mr. John Golding and


Kinnock, Neil
Price, William (Rugby)
Mr. William Hamling


Lamond, James
Reed, D. (Sedgefield)



Latham, Arthur
Rees, Merlyn (Leeds, S.)

[Division No. 295.]
AYES
[3.35 a.m.


Adley, Robert
Bowden, Andrew
Cockeram, Eric


Allason, James (Hemel Hempstead)
Bray, Ronald
Cooke, Robert


Archer, Jeffrey (Louth)
Brewis, John
Coombs, Derek


Astor, John
Bruce-Gardyne, J.
Cormack, Patrick


Atkins, Humphrey
Bryan, Paul
Costain, A. P.


Awdry, Daniel
Buchanan-Smith, Alick(Angus, N&amp;M)
Critchley, Julian


Baker, W. H. K. (Banff)
Buck, Antony
Crouch, David


Balniel, Lord
Bullus, Sir Eric
d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Maj. -Gen. James


Benyon, W.
Butler, Adam (Bosworth)
Dean, Paul


Berry, Hn. Anthony
Campbell, R. Hn. G. (Moray&amp;Nairn)
Dixon, Piers


Bitten, John
Carr, Rt. Hn. Robert
Dodds-Parker, Douglas


Biggs-Davison, John
Cary, Sir Robert
Drayson, G. B.


Blaker, Peter
Channon, Paul
Eden, Sir John


Boardman, Tom (Leicester, S. W.)
Chapman, Sydney
Edwards, Nicholas (Pembroke)


Body, Richard
Chataway, Rt. Hn. Christopher
Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carshalton)


Boscawen, Robert
Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe)
Elliott, R. W. (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne. N.)


Bossom, Sir Clive
Clegg, Walter
Emery, Peter







Eyre, Reginald
Knight, Mrs. Jill
Roberts, Wyn (Conway)


Farr, John
Knox, David
Rost, Peter


Fell, Anthony
Lane, David
Russell, Sir Ronald


Fidler, Michael
Langford-Holt, Sir John
Scott, Nicholas


Finsberg, Geoffrey (Hampstead)
Le Marchant, Spencer
Scott-Hopkins, James


Fisher, Nigel (Surbiton)
Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland)
Sharpies, Richard


Fookes, Miss Janet
McCrindle, R. A.
Shaw, Michael (Sc'b'gh &amp; Whitby)


Fortescue, Tim
McLaren, Martin
Shelton, William (Clapham)


Fowler, Norman
McMaster, Stanley
Simeons, Charles


Fox, Marcus
McNair-Wilson, Michael
Sinclair, Sir George


Fraser, Rt. Hn. Hugh(St'fford &amp; Stone)
McNair-Wilson, Patrick (New Forest)
Skeet, T. H. H.


Fry, Peter
Maddan, Martin
Smith, Dudley (W'wick &amp; L'mington)


Gardner, Edward
Madel, David
Soref, Harold


Gilmour, Ian (Norfolk, C.)
Maginnis, John E.
Speed, Keith


Gilmour, Sir John (Fife, E.)
Marten, Neil
Spence, John


Goodhart, Philip
Mather, Carol
Sproat, Iain


Goodhew, Victor
Mawby, Ray
Stainton, Keith


Gorst, John
Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J.
Stanbrook, Ivor


Gower, Raymond
Meyer, Sir Anthony
Stewart-Smith, D. G. (Belper)


Gray, Namish
Mills, Peter (Torrington)
Stuttaford, Dr. Tom


Green, Alan
Miscampbell, Norman
Sutcliffe, John


Griffiths, Eldon (Bury St. Edmunds)
Mitchell, Lt. -Col. C. (Aberdeenshire, W)
Tapsell, Peter


Grylls, Michael
Moate, Roger
Taylor, Edward M. (G'gow, Cathcart)


Gummer, Selwyn
Molyneaux, James
Taylor, Robert (Croydon, N. W.)


Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury)
Money, Ernie
Thomas, John Stradling (Monmouth)


Hannam, John (Exeter)
Monro, Hector
Thomas, Rt. Hn. Peter (Hendon, S.)


Haselhurst, Alan
Montgomery, Fergus
Thompson, Sir Richard (Croydon, S.)


Havers, Michael
More, Jasper
Trafford, Dr. Anthony


Hawkins, Paul
Morgan, Geraint (Denbigh)
Trew, Peter


Hayhoe, Barney
Morrison, Charles (Devizes)
Tugendhat, Christopher


Heseltine, Michael
Mudd, David
van Straubenzee, W. R.


Hicks, Robert
Murton, Oscar
Vaughan, Dr. Gerard


Hiley, Joseph
Normanton, Tom
Vickers, Dame Joan


Hill, James (Southampton, Test)
Oppenheim, Mrs. Sally
Waddington, David


Holland, Philip
Osborn, John
Walder, David (Clitheroe)


Hordern, Peter
Owen, Id is (Stockport, N.)
Walters, Dennis


Hornby, Richard
Parkinson, Cecil (Enfield, W.)
Ward, Dame Irene


Hornsby-Smith, Rt. Hn. Dame Patricia
Percival, Ian
Warren, Kenneth


Howe, Hn. Sir Geoffrey (Reigate)
Pike, Miss Mervyn
Wells, John (Maidstone)


Howell, David (Guildford)
Pink, R. Bonner
White, Roger (Gravesend)


Howell, Ralph (Norfolk, N.)
Pounder, Rafton
Whitelaw, Rt. Hn. William


Hunt, John
Powell, Rt. Hn. J. Enoch
Wiggin, Jerry


Hutchison, Michael Clark
Prior, Rt. Hn. J. M. L.
Wilkinson, John


Iremonger, T. L.
Proudfoot, Wilfred
Wolrige-Gordon, Patrick


James, David
Pym, Rt. Hn. Francis
Wood, Rt. Hn. Richard


Jenkin, Patrick (Woodford)
Raison, Timothy
Woodhouse, Hn. Christopher


Jesse1, Toby
Ramsden, Rt. Hn. James
Woodnutt, Mark


Johnson Smith, G. (E. Grinstead)
Reed, Lauranee (Bolton, E.)
Wylie, Rt. Hn. N. R.


Jones, Arthur (Northants, S.)
Rees, Peter (Dover)



Jopling, Michael
Renton, Rt. Hn. Sir David
TELLERS FOR THE AYES:


Kimball, Marcus
Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon
Mr. Hugh Rossi and


King, Tom (Bridgwater)
Ridley, Hn. Nicholas
Mr. Bernard Weatherill


Kinsey, J. R.
Roberts, Michael (Cardiff, N.)





NOES


Archer, Peter (Rowley Regis)
Fitch, Alan (Wigan)
Leadbitter, Ted


Ashton, Joe
Fletcher, Ted (Darlington)
Lewis, Arthur (W. Ham, N.)


Atkinson, Norman
Foot, Michael
Lewis, Ron (Carlisle)


Benn, Rt. Hn. Anthony Wedgwood
Forrester, John
Lipton, Marcus


Brown, Bob (N'c'tie-upon-Tyne, W.)
Fraser, John (Norwood)
Lomas, Kenneth


Brown, Ronald(Shoreditch &amp; F'bury)
Gilbert, Dr. John
McBride, Neil


Buchanan, Richard (G'gow, Sp'burn)
Grant, George (Morpeth)
McCartney, Hugh


Cant, R. B.
Grant, John D. (Islington, E.)
Mackenzie, Gregor


Carter, Ray (Birmingh'm, Northfield)
Hardy, Peter
Mackintosh, John P.


Clark, David (Colne Valley)
Harper, Joseph
McNamara, J. Kevin


Cocks, Michael (Bristol, S.)
Harrison, Walter (Wakefield)
Mahon, Simon (Bootle)


Cohen, Stanley
Heffer, Eric S.
Mallalieu, J. P. W. (Huddersfield, E.)


Concannon, J. D.
Huchfied, Leslie
Marks, Kenneth


Crawshaw, Richard
Hughes, Mark (Durham)
Mellish, Rt. Hn. Robert


Cronin, John
Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen, N.)
Mendelson, John


Cunningham, G. (Islington, S. W.)
Hughes, Roy (Newport)
Millan, Bruce


Dalyell, Tarn
Janner, Greville
Miller, Dr. M. S.


Davies, G. Elfed (Rhondda, E.)
Jay, Rt. Hn. Douglas
Molloy, William


Davis, Clinton (Hackney, C.)
John, Brynmor
Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw)


Deakins, Eric
Jones, Barry (Flint, E.)
Morris, Rt. Hn. John (Aberavon)


Dempsey, James
Jones, Gwynoro (Carmarthen)
Murray, Ronald King


Douglas, Dick (Stirlingshire, E.)
Jones, T. Alec (Rhondda, W.)
Ogden, Eric


Duffy, A. E. P.
Judd, Frank
O'Halloran, Michael


Dunnett, Jack
Kaufman, Gerald
Orme, Stanley


Eadie, Alex
Kerr, Russell
Palmer, Arthur


English, Michael
Kinnock, Neil
Parry, Robert (Liverpool, Exchange)


Fernyhough, Rt. Hn. E.
Lamond, James
Pendry, Tom


Fisher, Mrs. Doris(B'ham, Ladywood)
Latham, Arthur
Prescott, John







Price, William (Rugby)
Skinner, Dennis
Walker, Harold (Doncaster)


Reed, D. (Sedgefield)
Small, William
Wellbeloved, James


Rees, Merlyn (Leeds, S.)
Spearing, Nigel
Whitehead, Phillip


Roberts, Rt. Hn. Goronwy (Caernarvon)
Stallard, A. W.
Wilson, Alexander (Hamilton)


Roderick, Caerwyn E.(Br'c'n&amp;R'dnor)
Stewart, Rt. Hn. Michael (Fulham)
Wilson, Rt. Hn. Harold (Huyton)


Rodgers, William (Stockton-on-Tees)
Stoddart, David (Swindon)
Wilson, William (Coventry, S.)


Roper, John
Strang, Gavin



Rose, Paul B.
Swain, Thomas
TELLERS FOR THE NOES:


Ross, Rt. Hn, William (Kilmarnock)
Thomson, Rt. Hn. G. (Dundee, E.)
Mr. Jonn Golding and


Silkin, Rt. Hn. John (Deptford)
Tinn, James
Mr. William Hamling.


Sillars, James
Torney, Tom



Silverman, Julius
Walden, Brian (B'm'ham, All Saints)

Division No. 296.]
AYES
(3. 47 a. m.)


Adley, Robert
Cray, Hamish
Parkinson, Cecil (Enfield, W.)


Allason, James (Hemel Hempstead)
Green, Alan
Peyton, Rt. Hn. John


Archer, Jeffrey (Louth)
Griffiths, Eldon (Bury St. Edmunds)
Pike, Miss Mervyn


Astor, John
Grylls, Michael
Pink, R. Bonner


Atkins, Humphrey
Gummer, Selwyn
Pounder, Rafton


Awdry, Daniel
Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury)
Powell, Rt. Hn. J. Enoch


Baker, W. H. K. (Banff)
Hannam, John (Exeter)
Prior, Rt. Hn. J. M. L.


Balniel, Lord
Haselhurst, Alan
Proudfoot, Wilfred


Senyon, W. R.
Hayhoe, Barney
Pym, Rt. Hn. Francis


Berry, Hn. Anthony
Heseltine, Michael
Raison, Timothy


Biffen, John
Hicks, Robert
Ramsden, Rt. Hn. James


Biggs-Davison, John
Kilty, Joseph
Reed, Laurance (Bolton, E.)


Blaker, Peter
Hill, James (Southampton, Test)
Rees, Peter (Dover)


Boardman, Tom (Leicester, S. W.)
Holland, Philip
Renton, Rt. Hn. Sir David


Body, Richard
Hordern, Peter
Ridley, Hn. Nicholas


Boscawen, Robert
Hornby, Richard
Roberts, Michael (Cardiff, N.)


Bossom, Sir Clive
Hornsby-Smitth. Rt. Hn. Dame Patricia
Roberts, Wyn (Conway)


Bowden, Andrew
Howe, Hn. Sir Geoffrey (Reigate)
Rost, Peter


Bray, Ronald
Howell, David (Guildford)
Russell, Sir Ronald


Brewis, John
Howell, Ralph (Norfolk, N.)
Scott, Nicholas


Bruce-Gardyne, J.
Hunt, John
Scott-Hopkins, James


Bryan, Paul
Hutchison, Michael Clark
Shaw, Michael (Sc'b'gh &amp; Whitby)


Buchanan-Smith, Alick(Angus, N&amp;M)
Iremonger, T. L.
Shelton, William (Clapham)


Buck, Antony
James, David
Simeons, Charles


Bullus, Sir Eric
Jenkin, Patrick (Woodford)
Sinclair, Sir George


Butler, Adam (Bosworth)
Jessel, Toby
Skeet, T. H. H.


Campbell, Rt. Hn. G. (Moray&amp;Nairn)
Johnson Smith, G. (E. Grinstead)
Smith, Dudley (W'wick &amp; L'mington)


Carr, Rt. Hn. Robert
Jopling, Michael
Soref, Harold


Cary, Sir Robert
King, Tom (Bridgwater)
Speed, Keith


Channon, Paul
Kinsey, J. R.
Spence, John


Chapman, Sydney
Knight, Mrs. Jill
Sproat, Iain


Chataway, Rt. Hn. Christopher
Knox, David
Stainton, Keith


Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe)
Lane, David
Stanbrook, Ivor


Cockeram, Eric
Langford-Holt, Sir John
Stewart-Smith, D. G. (Belper)


Cooke, Robert
Le Marchant, Spencer
stuttaford, Dr. Tom


Coombs, Derek
Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland)
Sutcliffe, John


Cormack, Patrick
McCrindle, R. A.
Tapsell, Peter


Costain, A. P.
McLaren, Martin
Taylor, Edward M. (G'gow, Cathcart)


Critchley, Julian
McMaster, Stanley
Taylor, Robert (Croydon, N. W.)


Crouch, David
McNair-Wilson, Michael
Thomas, John Stradling (Monmouth)



McNair-Wilson, Patrick (NewForest)
Thomas, Rt. Hn. Peter (Hendon, S.)


G'Avigdor-Goldsmid. Maj. -Gen. james
Maddan, Martin
Thompson, Sir Richard (Croydon, S.)


Dean, Paul
Madel, David
Trafford, Dr. Anthony


Dixon, Piers
Maginnis, John E.
Trew, Peter


Dodds-Parker, Douglas
Marten, Neil
Tugendhat, Chrtetophar


Drayson, G. B.
Mather, Carol
van 8traubenzee, W. R.


Eden, Sir John
Mawby, Ray
Vaughan, Dr. Gerard


Edwards, Nicholas (Pembroke)
Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J.
Vickers, Dame Joan


Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carshalton)
Meyer, Sir Anthony
Waddington, David


Elliott, R. W. (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne, N.)
Mills, Peter (Torrington)
Walder, David (Clitheroe)


Emery, Peter
Miscampbell, Norman
Walters, Dennis


Eyre, Reginald
Mitchell, Lt. -Col. C. (Aberdeenshire, W)
Ward, Dame Irene


Farr, John

Warren, Kenneth


Fell, Anthony
Mitchell, David (Basingstoke)
Wells, John (Maidstone)


Finsberg, Geoffrey (Hampstead)
Moate, Roger
White, Roger (Gravesend)


Fisher, Nigel (Surbiton)
Molyneaux, James
Whitelaw, Rt. Hn. William


Fookes, Miss Janet
Money, Ernie
Wiggin, Jerry


Fowler, Norman
Monro, Hector
Wilkinson, John


Fox, Marcus
Montgomery, Fergus
Wolrige-Gordon, Patrick


Fraser, Rt. Hn. Hugh(St'fford &amp; Stone)
More, Jasper
Wood, Rt. Hn. Richard


Fry, Peter
Morgan, Geraint (Denbigh)
Woodhouse, Hn. Christopher


Cardner, Edward
Mudd, David
Woodnutt, Mark


Gilmour, Ian (Norfolk, C.)
Murton, Oscar
Wylie, Rt. Hn. N. R.


Gilmour, Sir John (Fife, E.)
Normanton, Tom



Goodhew, Victor
Oppenheim, Mrs. Sally
TELLERS FOR THE AYES:


Gorst, John
Osborn, John
Mr. Tim Fortescue and


Gower, Raymond
Owen, Idris (Stockport, N.)
Mr. Walter Clegg.







NOES


Archer, Peter (Rowley Regis)
Harrison, Walter (Wakefield)
O'Halloran, Michael


Armstrong, Ernest
Heffer, Eric S.
Oram, Bert


Ashton, Joe
Huckfieid, Leslie
Palmer, Arthur


Atkinson, Norman
Hughes, Mark (Durham)
Parry, Robert (Liverpool, Exchange)


Benn, Rt. Hn. Anthony Wedgwood
Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen, N.)
Pendry, Tom


Brown, Bob (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne, W.)
Hughes, Roy (Newport)
Prescott, John


Brown, Ronald (Shoreditch &amp; F'bury)
Janner, Greville
Price, William (Rugby)


Buchanan, Richard (G'gow, Sp'burn)
Jay, Rt. Hn. Douglas
Reed, D. (Sedgefield)


Cant, R. B.
John, Brynmor
Rees, Merlyn (Leeds, S.)


Carter, Ray (Birmingh'm, Northfield)
Jones, Barry (Flint, E.)
Roberts, Rt. Hn. Goronwy (Caernarvon)


Clark, David (Colne Valley)
Jones, Gwynoro (Carmarthen)
Roderick, Caerwyn S. (Br'c'n&amp;R'dnor)


Cocks, Michael (Bristol, S.)
Jones, T. Alec (Rhondda, W.)
Rodgers, William (Stockton-on-Tees)


Cohen, Stanley
Judd, Frank
Roper, John


Concannon, J. D.
Kaufman, Gerald
Rose, Paul B.


Crawshaw, Richard
Kerr, Russell
Ross, Rt. Hn. William (Kilmarnock)


Cronin, John
Kinnock, Neil
Silkin, Rt. Hn. John (Deptford)


Cunningham, G. (Islington, S. W.)
Lamond, James
Sillars, James


Dalyell, Tam

Silverman, Julius


Davies C, Elfed (Rhondda E.)
Latham, Arthur



Davis, Clinton (Hackney, C.)
Leadbitter, Ted
Skinner, Dennis Small, William


Deakins, Eric
Lewis, Arthur (W. Ham, N.)
Spearing, Nigel


Dempsey, James
Lewis, Ron (Carlisle)
Stallard, A. W.


Douglas, Dick (Stirlingshire, E.)
Lipton, Marcus
Stewart, Rt. Hn. Michael (Fulham)


Duffy, A. E. P.
Lomas, Kenneth
Stoddart, David (Swindon)


Dunnett, Jack
McBride, Neil
Strang, Gavin


Eadie, Alex
McCartney, Hugh
Swain, Thomas


English, Michael
Mackenzie, Gregor
Thomson, Rt. Hn. G. (Dundee, E.)


Fernyhough, Rt. Hn. E.
Mackintosh, John P.
Tinn, James


Fisher. Mrs. Dcris(B'ham, Ladywood)
McNamara, J. Kevin
Torney, Tom


Fitch, Alan (Wigan)
Mahon, Simon (Bootle)
Walden, Brian (B'm'ham, All Saints)


Fletcher, Ted (Darlington)
Mallalieu, J. P. W. (Huddersfield, E.)
Walker, Harold (Doncaster)


Foot, Michael
Marks, Kenneth
Wellbeloved, James


Forrester, John
Mellish, Rt. Hn. Robert
Whitehead, Phillip


Fraser, John (Norwood)
Mendelson, John
Wilson, Alexander (Hamilton)


Gilbert, Dr. John
Millan, Bruce
Wilson, Rt. Hn. Harold (Huyton)


Grant, George (Morpeth)
Miller, Dr. M. S.
Wilson, William (Coventry, S.)


Grant, John D. (Islington, E.)
Molloy, William



Hamilton, James (Bothwell)
Morgan, Elystan (Cardiganshire)
TELLERS FOR THE NOES:


Hannan, William (G'gow, Maryhill)
Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw)
Mr. William Hamling and


Hardy, Peter
Morris, Rt. Hn. John (Aberavon)
Mr. John Golding.


Harper, Joseph
Murray, Ronald King

Division No. 297.]
AYES
[4. 01 a. m.


Adley, Robert
Crouch, David
Hicks, Robert


Allason, James (Hemel Hempstead)
d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, MaJ. -Gen. James
Hiley, Joseph


Archer, Jeffrey (Louth)
Dean, Paul
Hill, James (Southampton, Test)


Astor, John
Dixon, Piers
Holland, Philip


Atkins, Humphrey
Dodds-Parker, Douglas
Hordern, Peter


Baker, W. H. K. (Banff)
Drayson, G. B.
Hornby, Richard


Balniel, Lord
Dykes, Hugh
Hornsby-Smith, Rt. Hn. DamePatricia


Benyon, W.
Eden, Sir John
Howe, Hn. Sir Geoffrey (Reigate)


Berry, Hn. Anthony
Edwards, Nicholas (Pembroke)
Howell, David (Guildford)


Biffen, John
Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carshalton)
Howell, Ralph (Norfolk, N.)


Bigss-Davison, John
Emery, Peter
Hunt, John


Blaker, Peter
Eyre, Reginald
Hutchison, Michael Clark


Boardman, Tom (Leicester, 8. W.)
Farr, John
Iremonger, T. L.


Boscawen, Robert
Fell, Anthony
James, David


Bossom, Sir Clive
Fidler, Michael
Jenkin, Patrick (Woodford)


Bowden, Andrew
Finsberg, Geoffrey (Hampstead)
Jessel, Toby


Bray, Ronald
Fisher, Nigel (Surbiton)
Johnson Smith, G. (E. Grinstead)


Brewis, John
Fookes, Miss Janet
Jopling, Michael


Brinton, Sir Tatton
Fowler, Norman
Kimball, Marcus


Bruce-Gardyne, J.
Fox, Marcus
King, Tom (Bridgwater)


Bryan, Paul
Fraser, Rt. Hn. Hugh(St'fford &amp; Stone)
Kinsey, J. R.


Buchanan-Smith, Alick(Angus, N&amp;M)
Fry, Peter
Kitson, Timothy


Buck, Anthony
Gardner, Edward
Knox, David


Bullus, Sir Eric
Gilmour, Ian (Norfolk, C.)
Lane, David


Butler, Adam (Bosworth)
Gorst, John
Langford-Holt, Sir John


Campbell, Rt. Hn. G. (Moray&amp;Nairn)
Cower, Raymond
Le Marchant, Spencer


Carr, Rt. Hn. Robert
Gray, Hamish
McCrindie, R. A.


Cary, Sir Robert
Green, Alan
McLaren, Martin


Channon, Paul
Griffiths, Eldon (Bury St. Edmunds)
McMaster, Stanley


Chapman, Sydney
Grylls, Michael
McNair-Wilson, Michael


Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe)
Gummer, Selwyn
Maddan, Martin


Cockeram, Eric
Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury)
Madel, David


Cooke, Robert
Hannam, John (Exeter)
Maginnis, John E.


Coombs, Derek
Haselhurst, Alan
Marten, Neil


Cormack, Patrick
Havers, Michael
Mather, Carol


Costain, A. P.
Hawkins, Paul
Mawby, Ray


Critchley, Julian
Hayhoe, Barney
Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J.







Meyer, Sir Anthony
Rees, Peter (Dover)
Thompson, Sir Richard (Croydon, S.)


Mills, Peter (Torrington)
Renton, Rt. Hn. Sir David
Trafford, Dr. Anthony


Miscampbell, Norman
Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon
Trew, Peter


Mitchell, Lt. -Co-I. C. (Aberdeenshire, W)
Ridley, Hn. Nicholas
Tugendhat, Christopher


Mitchell, David (Basingstoke)
Roberts, Michael (Cardiff, N.)
Vaughan, Dr. Gerard


Moate, Roger
Roberts, Wyn (Conway)
Vickers, Dame Joan


Molyneaux, James
Russell, Sir Ronald
Waddington, David


Money, Ernie
Scott, Nicholas
Walder, David (Clitheroe)


Montgomery, Fergus
Scott-Hopkins, James
Walters, Dennis


Morgan, Geraint (Denbigh)
Sharpies, Richard
Wells, John (Maidstone)


Morrison, Charles (Devizes)
Shaw, Michael (Sc'b'gh &amp; Whitby)
White, Roger (Gravesend)


Mudd, David
Simeons, Charles
Whitelaw, Rt. Hn. William


Normanton, Tom
Sinclair, Sir George
Wiggin, Jerry


Oppenheim, Mrs. Sally
Skeet, T. H. H.
Wilkinson, John


Owen, Idris (Stockport. N.)
Soref, Harold
Wolrige-Gordon, Patrick


Parkinson, Cecil (Enfield, W.)
Speed, Keith
Wood, Rt. Hn. Richard


Percival, Ian
Sproat, Iain
Woodhouse, Hn. Christopher


Pike, Miss Mervyn
Stanbrook, Ivor
Woodnutt, Mark


Pounder, Rafton
Stewart-Smith, D. G. (Bolper)
Worsley, Marcus


Powell, Rt. Hn. J. Enoch
Stuttaford, Dr. Tom
Wylie, Rt. Hn, N. R.


Prior, Rt. Hn. J. M. L,
Sutcliffe, John



Proudfoot, Wilfred
Tapsell, Peter
TELLERS FOR THE AYES:


Pym, Rt. Hn. Francis
Taylor, Robert (Croydon, N. W.)
Mr. Hector Munro and


Raison, Timothy
Tebbit, Norman
Mr. Victor Goodhew.


Ramsden, Rt. Hn. James
Thomas, John Stradling (Monmouth)



Reed, Laurance (Bolton, E.)
Thomas, Rt. Hn. Peter (Hendon, S.)





NOES


Archer, Peter (Rowley Regis)
Hardy, Peter
Ogden, Eric


Armstrong, Ernest
Harper, Joseph
O'Halloran, Michael


Ashton, Joe
Harrison, Walter (Wakefield)
Orme, Stanley


Atkinson, Norman
Heffer, Eric S.
Palmer, Arthur


Benn, Rt. Hn. Anthony Wedgwood
Huckfield, Leslie
Parry, Robert (Liverpool, Exchange)


Brown, Bob (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne, W.)
Hughes, Mark (Durham)
Pendry, Tom


Brown, Ronald (Shoreditch &amp; F'bury)
Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen, N.)
Prescott, John


Buchanan, Richard (G'gow, Sp'bum)
Hughes, Roy (Newport)
Price, William (Rugby)


Cant, R. B.
Janner, Greville
Reed, D. (Sedgefield)


Carter, Ray (Birmingh'm, Northfield)
Jay, Rt. Hn. Douglas
Rees, Merlyn (Leeds, S.)


Clark, David (Colne Valley)
John, Brynmor
Roberts, Rt. Hn. Goronwy (Caernarvon)


Cocks, Michael (Bristol, S.)
Jones, Barry (Flint, E.)
Roderick, Caerwyn E. (Br'c'n&amp;R'dnor)


Cohen, Stanley
Jones, Gwynoro (Carmarthen)
Rodgers, William (Stockton-on-Tees)


Concannon, J. D.
Jones, T. Alec (Rhondda, W.)
Roper, John


Crawshaw, Richard
Judd, Frank
Rose, Paul B.


Cronin, John
Kaufman, Gerald
Ross, Rt. Hn. William (Kilmarnock)


Cunningham, G. (Islington, S. W.)
Kerr, Russell
Silkin, Rt. Hn. John (Deptford)


Dalyell, Tam
Kinnock, Neil
Sillars, James


Davies, G. Elfed (Rhondda, E.)
Lamond, James
Silverman, Julius


Davis, Clinton (Hackney, C.)
Latham, Arthur
Skinner, Dennis


Deakins, Eric
Leadbitter, Ted
Small, William


Dempsey, James
Leonard, Dick
Spearing, Nigel


Douglas, Dick (Stirlingshire, E.)
Lewis, Arthur (W. Ham, N.)
Stallard, A. W.


Duffy, A, E. P.
Lewis, Ron (Carlisle)
Stewart, Rt. Hn. Michael (Fulham)




Stoddart, David (Swindon)


Dunnett, Jack
Lipton, Marcus
Strang, Gavin


Eadie, Alex
McBride, Neil



English, Michael
McCartney, Hugh
Swain, Thomas


Fernyhough, Rt. Hn. E.
Mackenzie, Gregor
Thomson, Rt. Hn. G. (Dundee, E.)


Fisher, Mrs. Doris(B'ham, Ladywood)
Mackintosh, John P.
Tinn, James Torney, Tom


Fletcher, Ted (Darlington)
McNamara, J. Kevin
Walden Brian (B'm'ham, All Saints)


Foot, Michael
Mahon, Simon (Bootle)
Walker, Harold (Doncaster)


Forrester, John
Mallalieu, J. P. W. (Huddersfieid, E.)
Wellbeloved, James


Fraser, John (Norwood)
Mellish, Rt. Hn. Robert
Whitehead, Phillip


Gilbert, Dr. John
Mendelson, John
Wilson, Alexander (Hamilton)


Golding, John
Millan, Bruce
Wilson, Rt. Hn. Harold (Huyton)


Grant, George (Morpeth)
Miller, Dr. M. S.
Wilson, William (Coventry, S.)


Grant, John D. (Islington, E.)
Molloy, William



Hamilton, James (Bothwell)
Morgan, Elystan (Cardiganshire)
TELLERS FOR THE NOES:


Hamling, William
Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw)
Mr. Alan Fitch and


Hannan, William (G'gow, Maryhill)
Morris, Rt. Hn. John (Aberavon)
Mr. Kenneth Mark.

Division No. 298.]
AYES
[4. 13 a. m.


Adley, Robert
Blaker, Peter
Butler, Adam (Bosworth)


Allason, James (Hemel Hempstead)
Boardman, Tom (Leicester, S. W.)
Campbell, Rt. Hn, G. (Moray&amp;Nairn)


Archer, Jeffrey (Louth)
Boscawen, Robert
Cary, Sir Robert


Astor, John
Bossom, Sir Clive
Channon, Paul


Atkins, Humphrey
Bowden, Andrew
Chapman, Sydney


Baker, W. H. K. (Banff)
Bray, Ronald
Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe)


Balniel, Lord
Brewis, John
Cockeram, Eric


Benyon, W.
Brinton, Sir Tatton
Cooke, Robert


Berry, Hn. Anthony
Buchanan-Smith, Alick(Angus, N&amp;M)
Coombs, Derek


Bitten, John
Buck, Antony
Cormack, Patrick


Biggs-Davison, John
Bullus, Sir Eric
Costain, A. P.







Critchley, Julian
Jenkin, Patrick (Woodford)
Rees, Peter (Dover)


Crouch, David
Jessel, Toby
Renton, Rt. Hn. Sir David


Curran, Charles
Johnson Smith, G. (E. Grinstead)
Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon


d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Maj. -Gen. James
Jones, Arthur (Northants, S.)
Ridley, Hn. Nicholas


Dean, Paul
Jopling, Michael
Roberts, Michael (Cardiff, N.)


Dixon, Piers
Kimball, Marcus
Roberts, Wyn (Conway)


Dodds-Parker, Douglas
King, Tom (Bridgwater)
Rossi, Hugh (Hornsey)


Drayson, G. B.
Kinsey, J. R.
Russell, Sir Ronald


Dykes, Hugh
Kitson, Timothy
Scott, Nicholas


Eden, Sir John
Knight, Mrs. Jill
Scott-Hopkins, James


Edwards, Nicholas (Pembroke)
Knox, David
Sharpies, Richard


Elliot, Cant. Walter (Carshalton)
Lane, David
Shaw, Michael (Sc'b'gh &amp; Whitby)


Emery, Peter
Langford-Holt, Sir John
Simeons, Charles


Farr, John
Le Marchant, Spencer
Sinclair, Sir George


Fell, Anthony
McCrindle, R. A.
Skeet, T. H. H.


Fidler, Michael
McLaren, Martin
Soref, Harold


Finsburg, Geoffrey (Hampstead)
McMaster, Stanley
Speed, Keith


Fisher, Nigel (Surbiton)
McNair-Wilson, Michael
Sproat, Iain


Fookes, Miss Janet
McNair-Wilson, Patrick (NewForest)
Stanbrook, Ivor


Fowler, Norman
Maddan, Martin
Stuttaford, Dr. Tom


Fox, Marcus
Madel, David
Sutcliffe, John


Fraser, Rt. Hn. Hugh(St'fford &amp; Stone)
Maginnis, John E.
Tapsell, Peter


Fry, Peter
Marten, Neil
Taylor, Robert (Croydon, N. W.)


Gilmour, Ian (Norfolk, C.)
Mather, Carol
Tebbit, Norman


Goodhart, Philip
Mawby, Ray
Thomas, John Stradling (Monmouth)


Goodhew, Victor
Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J.
Thomas, Rt. Hn. Peter (Hendon, S.)


Gorst, John
Meyer, Sir Anthony
Thompson, Sir Richard (Croydon, S.)


Gower, Raymond
Mills, Peter (Torrington)
Trafford, Dr. Anthony


Gray, Hamish
Miscampbell, Norman
Trew, Peter


Green, Alan
Mitchell, Lt. -Col. C. (Aberdeenshire, W)
Tugendhat, Christopher


Griffiths, Eldon (Bury St. Edmunds)
Moate, Roger
van Straubenzee, W. R.


Grylls, Michael
Molyneaux, James
Vaughan, Dr. Gerard


Gummer, Selwyn
Money, Ernie
vickers, Dame Joan


Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury)
Monro, Hector
Waddington, David


Hannam, John (Exeter)
Montgomery, Fergus
Walder, David (Clitheroe)


Haselhurst, Alan
Morgan, Geraint (Denbigh)
Walters, Dennis


Havers, Michael
Morrison, Charles (Devizes)
Wells, John (Maidstone)


Hayhoe, Barney
Mudd, David
White, Roger (Gravesend)


Hicks, Robert
Normanton, Tom
Whitelaw, Rt. Hn. William


Hiley, Joseph
Owen, Idris (Stockport, N.)
Wilkinson, John


Hill, James (Southampton, Test)
Parkinson, Cecil (Enfield, W.)
Wolrige-Gordon, Patrick


Holland, Philip
Percival, Ian
Wood, Rt. Hn. Richard


Hornby, Richard
Pike, Miss Mervyn
Woodhouse, Hn. Christopher


Hornsby-Smith, Rt. Hn. Dame Patricia
Pounder, Rafton
Woodnutt, Mark


Howe, Hn. Sir Geoffrey (Reigate)
Powell, Rt. Hn. J. Enoch
Worsley, Marcus


Howell, David (Guildford)
Prior, Rt. Hn. J. M. L.
Wylie, Rt. Hn. N. R.


Howell, Ralph (Norfolk, N.)
Proudfoot, Wilfred



Hunt, John
Pym, Rt. Hn. Francis
TELLERS FOR THE AYES:


Hutchison, Michael Clark
Raison, Timothy
Mr. Bernard Weatherill and


Iremonger, T. L.
Ramsden, Rt. Hn. James
Mr. Paul Hawkins.


James, David
Reed, Laurance (Bolton, E.)





NOES


Archer, Peter (Rowley Regis)
Foot, Michael
Leadbitter, Ted


Armstrong, Ernest
Forrester, John
Leonard, Dick


Ashton, Joe
Fraser, John (Norwood)
Lewis, Arthur (W. Ham N.)


Atkinson, Norman
Gilbert, Dr. John
Lewis, Ron (Carlisle)


Benn, Rt. Hn. Anthony Wedgwood
Golding, John
Lipton, Marcus


Brown, Bob (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne, W.)
Grant, George (Morpeth)
McBride, Neil


Brown, Ronald (Shoreditch &amp; F'bury)
Grant, John D. (Islington, E.)
McCartney, Hugh


Buchanan, Richard (G'gow, Sp'burn)
Hamilton, James (Bothwell)
Mackenzie, Gregor


Cant, R. B.
Hamling, William
Mackintosh, John p.


Carter, Ray (Birmingh'm, Northfield)
Hannan, William (G'gow, Maryhill)
McNamara, J. Kevin


Clark, David (Colne Valley)
Hardy, Peter
Mahon, Simon (Bootle)


Cocks, Michael (Bristol, S.)
Harper, Joseph
Mallalieu, J. P. W. (Huddersfield, E.)


Cohen, Stanley
Harrison, Walter (Wakefield)
Mellish, Rt. Hn. Robert


Concannon, J. D.
Heffer, Eric S.
Mendelson, John


Crawshaw, Richard
Huckfield, Leslie
Millan, Bruce


Cronin, John
Hughes, Mark (Durham)
Miller, Dr. M. S.


Cunningham, G. (Islington, S. W.)
Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen, N.)
Molloy, William


Dalyell, Tam
Hughes, Roy (Newport)
Morgan, Elystan (Cardiganshire)


Davies, G. Elfed (Rhondda, E.)
Janner, Greville
Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw)


Davis, Clinton (Hackney, C.)
Jay, Rt. Hn. Douglas
Morris, Rt. Hn. John (Aberavon)


Deakins, Eric
John, Brynmor
Murray, Ronald King


Dempsey, James
Jones, Barry (Flint, E.)
Ogden, Eric


Douglas, Dick (Stirlingshire, E.)
Jones, Gwynoro (Carmarthen)
O'Halloran, Michael


Duffy, A. E. P.
Jones, T. Alec (Rhondda, W.)
Orme, Stanley


Dunnett, Jack
Judd, Frank
Palmer, Arthur


Eadie, Alex
Kaufman, Gerald
Parry, Robert (Liverpool, Exchange)


English, Michael
Kerr, Russell
Pendry, Tom


Fernyhough, Rt. Hn. E.
Kinnock, Neil
Prescott, John


Fisher, Mrs. Doris(B'ham, Ladywood)
Lamond, James
Price, William (Rugby)


Fletcher, Ted (Darlington)
Latham, Arthur
Reed, D. (Sedgefield)







Rees, Merlyn (Leeds, S.)
Small, William
Walker, Harold (Doncaster)


Roberts, Rt. Hn. Goronwy (Caernarvon)
Spearing, Nigel
Wellbeloved, James


Roderick, CaerwynE. (Br'c'n&amp;Radnor)
Stallard, A. W.
Whitehead, Phillip


Rodgers, William (Stockton-on-Tees)
Stewart, Rt. Hn. Michael (Fulham)
Wilson, Alexander (Hamilton)


Roper, John
Stoddart, David (Swindon)
Wilson, Rt. Hn. Harold (Huyton)


Rose, Paul B.
Strang, Gavin
Wilson, William (Coventry, S.)


Ross, Rt. Hn. William (Kilmarnock)
Swain, Thomas



Silkin, Rt. Hn. John (Deptford)
Thomson, Rt. Hn. G. (Dundee, E.)
TELLERS FOR THE NOES:


Sillars, James
Tinn, James
Mr. Kenneth Marks and


Silverman, Julius
Torney, Tom
Mr. Alan Fitch.


Skinner, Dennis
Walden, Brian (B'm'ham, All Saints)

Division No. 299.]
AYES
[4. 26 a. m.


Adley, Robert
Griffiths, Eldon (Bury St. Edmunds)
Percival, Ian


Allason, James (Hemel Hempstead)
Grylls, Michael
Pike, Miss Mervyn


Archer, Jeffrey (Louth)
Gummer, Selwyn
Pink, R. Bonner


Astor, John
Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury)
Pounder, Ratten


Atkins, Humphrey
Hannam, John (Exeter)
Powell, Rt. Hn. J. Enoch


Baker, Kenneth (St. Marylebone)
Haselhurst, Alan
Prior, Rt. Hn. J. M. L.


Baker, W. H. K. (Banff)
Havers, Michael
Proudfoot, Wilfred


Balniel, Lord
Hawkins, Paul
Pym, Rt. Hn. Francis


Benyon, W.
Hayhoe, Barney
Raison, Timothy


Berry, Hn. Anthony
Heseltine, Michael
Ramsden, Rt. Hn. James


Biffen, John
Hicks, Robert
Reed, Laurance (Bolton, E.)


Biggs-Davison, John
Hiley, Joseph
Rees, Peter (Dover)


Blaker, Peter
Hill, James (Southampton, Test)
Ronton, Rt. Hn. Sir David


Boardman, Tom (Leicester, S. W.)
Holland, Philip
Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon


Body, Richard
Hornby, Richard
Ridley, Hn. Nicholas


Boscawen, Robert
Hornsby-Smith. Rt. Hn. Dame Patricia
Roberts, Michael (Cardiff, N.)


Bossom, Sir Clive
Howe, Hn. Sir Geoffrey (Reigate)
Roberts, Wyn (Conway)


Bowden, Andrew
Howell, David (Guildford)
Rossi, Hugh (Hornsey)


Bray, Ronald
Howell, Ralph (Norfolk, N.)
Russell, Sir Ronald


Brewis, John
Hunt, John
Scott, Nicholas


Brinton, Sir Tatton
Hutchison, Michael Clark



Bryan, Paul
Iremonger, T. L.
Scott-Hopkins, James


Buchanan-Smith, Alick (Angus, N &amp;M)
James, David
Sharples, Richard


Buck, Antony
Jenkin, Patrick (Woodford)
Shaw, Michael (Sc'b'gh &amp; Whitby)


Bullus, Sir Eric
Jessel, Toby
Shelton, William (Clapham)


Butler, Adam (Bosworth)
Johnson Smith, G. (E. Grinstead)
Simeons, Charles


Campbell, Rt. Hn. G. (Moray &amp; Nairn)
Jones, Arthur (Northants, S.)
Sinclair, Sir George


Cary, Sir Robert
Jopling, Michael
Skeet, T. H. H.


Channon, Paul
Kimball, Marcus
Soref, Harold


Chapman, Sydney
King, Tom (Bridgwater)
Spence, John


Chataway, Fit. Hn. Christopher
Kinsey, J. R.
Sproat, Iain


Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe)
Kitson, Timothy
Stainton, Keith


Cockeram, Eric
Knight, Mrs. Jill
Stanbrook, Ivor


Cooke, Robert
Knox, David
Stewart-Smith, D. G. (Belper)


Coombs, Derek
Lane, David
Stuttaford, Dr. Tom


Cormack, Patrick
Langford Holt, Sir John
Sutcliffe, John


Costain, A. P.
Le Marchant, Spencer
Tapsell, Peter


Critchley, Julian
Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland)
Taylor, Robert (Croydon, N. W.)


Crouch, David
McCrindle, R. A.
Tebbit, Norman


Curran, Charles
McLaren, Martin
Thomas, John Stradling (Monmouth)


d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Ma]. -Gen. Jack
McMaster, Stanley
Thomas, Rt. Hn. Peter (Hendon, S.)


Dean, Paul
McNair-Wilson, Michael
Thompson, Sir Richard (Croydon, S.)


Dixon, Piers
McNair-Wilson, Patrick (NewForest)
Trafford, Dr. Anthony


Dorids-Parker, Douglas
Maddan, Martin
Trew, Peter


Drayson, G. B.
Madel, David
Tugendhat, Christopher


Eden, Sir John
Maginnis, John E.
van Straubenzee, W. R.


Edwards, Nicholas (Pembroke)
Marten, Neil
Vaughan, Dr. Gerard


Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carshalton)
Mather, Carol
Vickers, Dame Joan


Elliott, R. W. (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne, N.)
Mawby, Ray
Waddington, David


Emery, Peter
Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J.
Walder, David (Clitheroe)


Farr, John
Meyer, Sir Anthony
Walters, Dennis


Fell, Anthony
Mills, Peter (Torrington)
Ward, Dame Irene


Fidler, Michael
Miscampbell, Norman
Warren, Kenneth


Finsberg, Geoffrey (Hampstead)
Mitchell, Lt. -Col. C. (Aberdeenshire, W)
Weatherill, Bernard


Fisher, Nigel (Surbiton)
Moate, Roger
Wells, John (Maidstone)


Fortescue, Tim
Molyneaux, James
White, Roger (Gravesend)


Fowler, Norman
Money, Ernie
Whitelaw, Rt. Hn. William


Fox, Marcus
Monro, Hector
Wilkinson, John


Fraser, Rt. Hn. Hugh(St'fford &amp; Stone)
Montgomery, Fergus
Wolrige-Gordon, Patrick


Fry, Peter
Morgan, Geraint (Denbigh)
Wood, Rt. Hn. Richard


Gibson-Watt, David
Morrison, Charles (Devizes)
Woodhouse, Hn. Christopher


Gilmour, Sir John (Fife, E.)
Mudd, David
Woodnutt, Mark


Goodhart, Philip
Murton, Oscar
Worsley, Marcus


Goodhew, Victor
Noble, Rt. Hn, Michael
Wylie, Rt. Hn. N. R.


Gorst, John
Normanton, Tom



Gower, Raymond
Osborn, John
TELLERS FOR THE AYES:


Gray, Hamish
Owen, Idris (Stockport, N.)
Mr. Jasper More


Green, Alan
Parkinson, Cecil (Enfield, W.)
and Mr. Walter Clegg.







NOES


Archer, Peter (Rowley Regis)
Hannan, William (G'gow, Maryhiil)
Murray, Ronald King


Armstrong, Ernest
Hardy, Peter
Ogden, Eric


Ashton, Joe
Harper, Joseph
O'Halloran, Michael


Atkinson, Norman
Harrison, Walter (Wakefield)
Orme, Stanley


Benn, Rt. Hn. Anthony Wedgwood
Heffer, Eric S.
Palmer, Arthur


Brown, Bob (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne,W.)
Huckfield, Leslie
Parry, Robert (Liverpool, Exchange)


Brown, Ronald (Shoreditch &amp; F'bury)
Hughes, Mark (Durham)
Pendry, Tom


Buchanan, Richard (G'gow, Sp'burn)
Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen, N.)
Prescott, John


Cant, R. B.
Hughes, Roy (Newport)
Price, William (Rugby)


Carter, Ray (Birmingh'm, Northfield)
Janner, Greville
Reed, D. (Sedgefield)


Clark, David (Colne Valley)
Jay, Rt. Hn. Douglas
Rees, Merlyn (Leeds, S.)


Cocks, Michael (Bristol, S.)
John, Brynmor
Roberts, Rt.Hn.Goronwy(Caemarvon)


Cohen, Stanley
Jones, Barry (Flint, E.)
Roderick, Caerwyn E.(Br'c'n&amp;R'dnor)


Concannon, J. D.
Jones, Gwynoro (Carmarthen)
Rodgers, William (Stockton-on-Tees)


Cox, Thomas (Wandsworth, C.)
Jones, T. Alec (Rhondda, W.)
Roper, John


Crawshaw, Richard
Judd, Frank
Rose, Paul B.


Cronin, John
Kaufman, Gerald
Ross, Rt. Hn. William (Kilmarnock)


Cunningham, G. (Islington, S.W.)
Kerr, Russell
Silkin, Rt. Hn. John (Deptford)


Dalyell, Tam
Kinnock, Neil
Sillars, James


Davies, G. Elfed (Rhondda, E.)
Lamond, James
Silverman, Julius


Davis, Clinton (Hackney, C.)
Latham, Arthur
Skinner, Dennis


Deakins, Eric
Leadbitter, Ted
Small, William


Dempsey, James
Leonard, Dick
Spearing, Nigel


Douglas, Dick (Stirlingshire, E.)
Lewis, Arthur (W. Ham N.)
Stallard, A. W.


Duffy, A. E. P.
Lewis, Ron (Carlisle)
Stewart, Rt. Hn. Michael (Fulham)


Dunnett, Jack
Lomas, Kenneth
Stoddart, David (Swindon)


Eadie, Alex
McBride, Neil
Strang, Gavin


English, Michael
McCartney, Hugh
Swain, Thomas


Evans, Fred
Mackenzie, Gregor
Thomson, Rt. Hn. G. (Dundee, E.)


Fernyhough, Rt. Hn. E.
Mackintosh, John P.
Tinn, James


Fisher, Mrs. Doris(B'ham, Ladywood)
McNamara, J. Kevin
Tomey, Tom


Fletcher, Ted (Darlington)
Mahon, Simon (Bootte)
Walden, Brian (B'm'ham, All Saints)


Foot, Michael
Mallalieu, J. P. W. (Huddersfield, E.)
Walker, Harold (Doncaster)


Forrester, John
Mellish, Rt. Hn, Robert
Wellbeloved, James


Fraser, John (Norwood)
Mendelson, John
Whitehead, Phillip


Gilbert, Dr. John
Millan, Bruce
Wilson, Alexander (Hamilton)


Golding, John
Miller, Dr. M. S.
Wilson, Rt. Hn. Harold (Huyton)


Grant, George (Morpeth)
Molloy, William
TELLERS FOR THE NOES:


Grant, John D. (Islington, E.)
Morgan, Elystan (Cardiganshire)
Mr. Kenneth Marks and


Hamilton, James (Bothwell)
Morris, Charles R. (Openhaw)
Mr. Alan Fitch.


Hamling, William
Morris, Rt. Hn. John (Aberavon)

Division No. 300.]
AYES
[4.38 a.m.


Adley, Robert
d'Avigdor-Goidsmid, Maj. -Gen. James
Hawkins, Paul


Allason, James (Hemel Hempstead)
Dean, Paul
Hayhoe, Barney


Archer, Jeffrey (Louth)
Dixon, Piers
Heseltine, Michael


Astor, John
Dodds-Parker, Douglas
Hicks, Robert


Awdry, Daniel
Drayson, G. B.
Hiley, Joseph


Baker, Kenneth (St. Marylebone)
Eden, Sir John
Hill, James (Southampton, Test)


Baker, W. H. K. (Banff)
Edwards, Nicholas (Pembroke)
Hordern, Peter


Balniel, Lord
Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carshalton)
Hornby, Richard


Benyon, W.
Elliott, R. W. (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne.N.)
Hornsby-Smith,Rt.Hn.Dame Patricia


Berry, Hn. Anthony
Emery, Peter
Howe, Hn. Sir Geoffrey (Reigate)


Biffen, John
Eyre, Reginald
Howell, David (Guildford)


Biggs-Davison, John
Farr, John
Howell, Ralph (Norfolk, N.)


Blaker, Peter
Fell, Anthony
Hunt, John


Boardman, Tom (Leicester, S.W.)
Fidler, Michael



Body, Richard
Finsberg, Geoffrey (Hampstead)
Hutchison, Michael Clark


Boscawen, Robert
Fisher, Nigel (Surbiton)
Iremonger, T. L.


Bossom, Sir Clive
Fookes, Miss Janet
James, David


Bowden, Andrew
Fortescue, Tim
Jenkin, Patrick (Woodford)


Bray, Ronald
Fox, Marcus
Jesse!, Toby


Brewis, John
Fraser,Rt.Hn.Hugh(St'fford &amp; Stone)
Johnson Smith, G. (E. Grinstead)


Brinton, Sir Tatton
Fry, Peter
Jones, Arthur (Northants, S.)


Bruce-Gardyne, j.
Gardner, Edward
Jopling, Michael


Buchanan-Smith, Atick(Angus,N&amp;M)
Gibson-Watt, David
Kimball, Marcus


Buck, Antony
Gilmour, Ian (Norfolk, C.)
King, Tom (Bridgwater)


Bullus, Sir Eric
Gilmour, Sir John (Fife, E.)
Kinsey, J. R.


Campbell, Rt.Hn.G.(Moray&amp;Nairn)
Goodhart, Philip
Kitson, Timothy


Cary, Sir Robert
Goodhew, Victor
Knight, Mrs. Jill


Chapman, Sydney
Cower, Raymond
Knox, David


Chataway, Rt. Hn. Christopher
Gray, Hamish
Langford-Holt, Sir John


Clegg, Walter
Green, Alan
Le Marchant, Spencer


Cooke, Robert
Griffiths, Eldon (Bury St. Edmunds)
Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland)


Coombs, Derek
Crylls, Michael
McCrindle, R. A.


Cormack, Patrick
Gummer, Selwyn
McLaren, Martin


Costain, A. P.
Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury)
McMaster, Stanley


Critchley, Julian
Hannam, John (Exeter)
McNair-Wilson, Michael


Crouch, David
Haselhurst, Alan
Maddan, Martin


Curran, Charles
Havers, Michael
Madel, David







Maginnis, John E.
Proudfoot, Wilfred
Thomas, John stradling (Monmouth)


Marten, Neil
Pym, Rt. Hn. Francis
Thomas, Rt. Hn. Peter (Hendon, S.)


Mather, Carol
Raison, Timothy
Thompson, Sir Richard (Croydon, S.)


Mawby, Ray
Reed, Laurance (Bolton, E.)
Trafford, Dr. Anthony


Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J.
Ronton, Rt. Hn. Sir David
Trew, Peter


Meyer, Sir Anthony
Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon
Tugendhat, Christopher


Mills, Peter (Torrington)
Roberts, Michael (Cardiff, N.)
van Straubenzee, W. R.


Miscambell, Norman
Roberts, Wyn (Conway)
Vaughan, Dr. Gerard


Mitchell, Lt. -Col. C. (Aberdeenshrre. W]
Rossi, Hugh (Hornsey)
Vickers, Dame Joan


Mitchell, David (Basingstoke)
Rost, Peter
Waddington, David


Moate, Roger
Russell, Sir Ronald
Walder, David (Clitheroe)


Molyneaux, James
Scott, Nicholas
Walters, Dermis


Money, Ernie
Scott-Hopkins, James
Ward, Dame Irene


Montgomery, Fergus
Sharpies, Richard
Warren, Kenneth


More, Jasper
Shaw, Michael (Sc'b'gh &amp; Whitby)
Weatherill, Bernard


Morgan, Geraint (Denbigh)
Shelton, William (Clapham)
Wells, John (Maidstone)


Morrison, Charles (Devizes)
Simeons, Charles
White, Roger (Gravesend)


Mudd, David
Sinclair, Sir George
Whitelaw, Rt. Hn. William


Murton, Oscar
Skeet, T. H. H.
Wiggin, Jerry


Noble, Rt. Hn. Michael
Soref, Harold
Wilkinson, John


Normanton, Tom
Spence, John
Wolrige-Gordon, Patrick


Oppenheim, Mrs. Sally
Sproat, Iain
Wood, Rt. Hn. Richard


Osborn, John
Stainton, Keith
Woodhouse, Hn. Christopher


Owen, Idris (Stockport, N.)
Stanbrook, Ivor
Woodnutt, Mark


Parkinson, Cecil (Enfield, W.)
Stewart-Smith, D. C. (Belper)
Worsley, Marcus


Percival, Ian
Stuttaford, Dr. Tom
Wylie, Rt. Hn. N. R.


Pike, Miss Mervyn
Sutcliffe, John



Pink, R. Bonner
Tapsell, Peter
TELLERS FOR THE AYES:


Pounder, Ration
Taylor, Edward M. (C'gow, Cathoart)
Mr. Hector Munro and


Powell, Rt. Hn. J. Enoch
Taylor, Robert (Croydon, N. W.)
Mr. Keith Speed.


Prior, Rt. Hn. J. M. L.
Tebbit, Norman





NOES


Archer, Peter (Rowley Regis)
Hardy, Peter
Ogden, Eric


Armstrong, Ernest
Harper, Joseph
O'Halloran, Michael


Ashton, Joe
Harrison, Walter (Wakefield)
Orme, Stanley


Atkinson, Norman
Heffer, Eric S.
Palmer, Arthur


Benn, Rt. Hn. Anthony Wedgwood
Huckfield, Leslie
Parry, Robert (Liverpool, Exchange)


Brown, Bob (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne, W.)
Hughes, Mark (Durham)
Pendry, Tom


Brown, Ronald (Shoreditch &amp;F'bury)
Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen, N.)
Prescott, John


Buchanan, Richard (G'gow, Sp'burn)
Hughes, Roy (Newport)
Price, William (Rugby)


Cant, R. B.
Janner, Greville
Reed, D. (Sedgefield)


Carter, Ray (Birmingh'm, Northfield)
Jay, Rt. Hn. Douglas
Rees, Meriyn (Leeds, S.)


Clark, David (Colne Valley)
John, Brynmor
Roberts, Rt. Hn. Goronwy(Caernarvon)


Cocks, Michael (Bristol, S.)
Jones, Barry (Flint, E.)
Roderick, Caerwyn E. (Br'c'n&amp;R'dnor)


Cohen, Stanley
Jones, Gwynoro (Carmarthen)
Rodgers, William (Stockton-on-Tees)


Concarmon, J. D.
Jones, T. Alec (Rhondda, W.)
Roper, John


Cox, Thomas (Wandsworth, C.)
Judd, Frank
Rose, Paul B.


Crawshaw, Richard
Kaufman, Gerald
Ross, Rt. Hn. William (Kilmarnock)


Cronin, John
Kerr, Russell
Silkin, Rt. Hn. John (Deptford)


Cunningham, G. (Islington, S. W.)
Kinnock, Neil
Sillars, James


Dalyell, Tam
Lamond, James
Silverman, Julius


Davies, G. Elfed (Rhondda, E.)
Latham, Arthur
Skinner, Dennis


Davis, Clinton (Hackney, C.)
Leadbitter, Ted
Small, William


Deakins, Eric
Leonard, Dick
Spearing, Nigel


Dempsey, James
Lewis, Arthur (W. Ham, N.)
Stallard, A. W.


Douglas, Dick (Stirlingshire, E.)

Stewart, Rt. Hn. Michael (Fulham)


Duffy, A. E. P.
Lewis, Ron (Carlisle)
Stoddart, David (Swindon)


Dunnett, Jack
Lomas, Kenneth
Strang, Gavin


Eadie, Alex
McBride, Neil
Swain, Thomas


English, Michael
McCartney, Hugh
Thomson, Rt. Hn. C. (Dundee, E.)


Evans, Fred
Mackenzie, Gregor
Tinn, James


Fernyhough, Rt. Hn. E.
Mackintosh, John P.
Torney, Tom


Fisher, Mrs. Doris(B'ham, Ladywood)
McNamara, J. Kevin
Walden, Brian (B'm'ham, AH Saints)


Fletcher, Ted (Darlington)
Mahon, Simon (Bootle)
Walker, Harold (Doncaster)


Foot, Michael
Mallalieu, J. P. W. (Huddersfield, E.)
Wellbeloved, James


Forrester, John
Mellish, Rt. Hn. Robert
Whitehead, Phillip


Fraser, John (Norwood)
Mendelson, John
Wilson, Alexander (Hamilton)


Gilbert, Dr. John
Millan, Bruce
Wilson, Rt. Hn. Harold (Huyton)


Golding, John
Miller, Dr. M. S.
Wilson, William (Coventry, S.)


Grant, George (Morpeth)
Molloy, William



Grant, John D. (Islington, E.)
Morgan, Elystan (Cardiganshire)
TELLERS FOR THE NOES:


Hamilton, James (Bothwell)
Morris, Charlies R. (Openshaw)
Mr. Kenneth Marks and


Hamling, William
Morris, Rt. Hn. John (Aberavon)
Mr. Alan Fitch.


Hannan, William (G'gow, Maryhill)
Murray, Ronald King

Division No. 301.]
AYES
[4.50 a.m.


Adley, Robert
Benyon, W.
Boardman, Tom (Leicester, S. W.)


Allason, James (Hemel Hempstead)
Berry, Hn. Anthony
Body, Richard


Archer, Jeffrey (Louth)
Biffen, John
Boscawen, Robert


Astor, John
Biggs-Davison, John
Bossom, Sir Clive


Balniel, Lord
Blaker, Peter
Bowden, Andrew







Bray, Ronald
Hill, James (Southampton, Test)
Ramsden, Rt. Hn. James


Brewis, John
Hordern, Peter
Reed, Laurance (Bolton, E.)


Brinton, Sir Tatton
Hornsby-Smith. Rt. Hn. Dame Patricia
Rees, Peter (Dover)


Bruce-Gardyne, J.
Howe, Hn. Sir Geoffrey (Reigate)
Renton, Rt. Hn. Sir David


Buchanan-Smith, Alick(Angus, N&amp;M)
Howell, David (Cuildford)
Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon


Buck, Antony
Howell, Ralph (Norfolk, N.)
Roberts, Michael (Cardiff, N.)


Bullus, Sir Eric
Hunt, John
Roberts, Wyn (Conway)


Butler, Adam (Bosworth)
Hutchison, Michael Clark
Rost, Peter


Campbell, Rt. Hn. G. (MorayANairn)
Iremonger, T. L.
Russell, Sir Ronald


Cary, Sir Robert
James, David
Scott, Nicholas


Chapman, Sydney
Jenkin, Patrick (Woodford)
Scott-Hopkins, James


Chataway, Rt. Hn. Christopher
Jessel, Toby
Sharpies, Richard


Clegg, Walter
Johnson Smith, G. (E. Crinstead)
Shaw, Michael (Sc'b'gh &amp; Whitby)


Cockeram, Eric
Jones, Arthur (Northants, S.)
Sfocflton, William (Clapham)


Cooke, Robert
Jopling, Michael
Simeons, Charles


Coombs, Derek
Kimball, Marcus
Sinclair, Sir George


Cormack, Patrick
King, Tom (Bridgwater)
Skeet, T. H. H.


Costain, A. P.
Klnsey, J. R.
Soref, Harold


Critchley, Julian
Knight, Mrs. Jill
Speed, Keith


Crouch, David
Knox, David
Spence, John


Curran, Charles
Langford-Holt, Sir John
Sproat, Iain


d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Maj.-Gen. James
Le Merchant, Spencer
Stainton, Keith


Dean, Paul
McCrindle, R. A.
Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland)


Dixon, Piers
McLaren, Martin
Stewart-Smith, D. G. (Belper)


Dodds-Parker, Douglas
McMaster, Stanley
Stuttaford, Dr. Tom


Drayson, G. B.
McNair-Wilson, Michael
Sutclitfs, John


Eden, Sir John
Ma del an, Martin
Tapsell, Peter


Edwards, Nicholas (Pembroke)
Madel, David
Taylor, Edward M, (G'gow, Carhcart)


Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carshalton)
Marten, Neil
Taylor, Robert (Croydon, N. W.)


Elliott, R. W. (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne, N.)
MatheT, Carol
Tebbit Norman


Emery, Peter
Mawby, Ray
Thomas, John Stradling (Monmouth)


Eyre, Reginald
Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J.
Thomas, Rt. Hn. Peter (Hendon, S.)


Farr, John
Meyer, Sir Anthony
Thompson, Sir Richard (Croydon, S.)


Fell, Anthony
Mills, Peter (Torrington)
Trafford, Dr. Anthony


Fidler, Michael
Miscampbell, Norman
Trew, Peter


Finsberg, Geoffrey (Hampstead)
Mitchell, David (Basingstoke)
Tugerwrtat, Christopher


Fisher, Nigel (Surbiton)
Moate, Roger
van Straubenzee, W. R.


Fookes, Miss Janet
MOTyneaux, James
Vaughan, Dr. Gerard


Forrescue, Tim
Money, Ernie
Vickers, Dame Joan


Fraser, Rt. Hn. Hugh(St'fford &amp; Stone)
Monro, Hector
Waddington, David


Fry, Peter
Montgomery, Fergus
Warder, David (Climeroe)


Gardner, Edward
More, Jasper
Walters, Dennis


Gilmour, Ian (Norfolk, C.)
Morgan, Geraint (Denbigh)
Ward, Dame Irene


Gitmour, Sir John (Fife, E.)
Morrison, Charles (Devizes)
Warren, Kenneth


Goodhart, Philip
Mudd, David
Weatherill, Bernard


Goodhew, Victor
Murton, Oscar
White, Roger (Gravesend)


Gower, Raymond
Normarrcon, Tom
Whitelaw, Rt. Hn. William


Gray, Hamish
Oppenheim, Mrs. Sally
Wiggin, Jerry


Green, Alan
Osbom, John
Wilkinson, John


Griffiths, Eldon (Bury St. Edmunds)
Owen, Idris (Stockport, N.)
Wolrige-Gordon, Patrick


Grylls, Michael
Parkinson, Cecil (Enfield, W.)
Wood, Rt. Hn. Richard


Gummer, Selwyn
Percival, Ian
Woodnutt, Mark


Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury)
Pike, Miss Mervyn
Worsley, Marcus


Hannam, John (Exeter)
Pink, R. Bonner
Wylie, Rt. Hn. N. R.


Haselhurst, Alan
Pounder, Rafton



Havers, Michael
Powell, Rt. Hn. J. Enoch
TELLERS FOR THE AYES:


Hay hoe, Barney
Prior, Rt. Hn. J. M. L.
Mr. Paul Hawkios and


Heseltine, Michael
Proudfoot, Wilfred
Mr. Hugh Rossi.


Hicks, Robert
Pym, Rt. Hn. Francis



Hiley, Joseph
Raison, Timothy





NOES


Archer, Peter (Rowley Regis)
Davies, G. Elfed (Rhondda, E.)
Grant, John D. (Islington, E.)


Armstrong, Ernest
Davis, Clinton (Hackney, C.)
Hamilton, James (Bothwetl)


Ashton, Joe
Deakins, Eric
Hannan, William (G'gow, Maryhill)


Atkinson, Norman
Dempsey, James
Hardy, Peter


Bonn, Rt. Hn. Anthony Wedgwood
Douglas, Dick (Stirlingshire, E.)
Harrison, Walter (Wakefield)


Bidwell, Sydney
Duffy, A. E. P.
Heffer, Eric S.


Brown, Bob (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne, W.)
Dunnett, Jack
Huckficlcl, Leslie


Brown, Ronald (Shoreditch &amp; F'bury)
Eadie, Alex
Hughes, Mark (Durham)


Buchanan, Richard (G'gow, Sp'burn)
English, Michael
Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen, N.)


Cant, R. B.
Evans, Fred
Hughes, Roy (Newport)


Carter, Ray (Birmrngh'm, Northfield)
Femyhough, Rt. Hn. E.
Janner, Greville


Clark, David (Colne Valley)
Fisher, Mrs. DorJs(B'ham, Ladywood)
Jay, Rt. Hn. Douglas


Cocks, Michael (Bristol, S.)
Fitch, Alan (Wigan)
John, Brynmor


Cohen, Stanley
Fletcher, Ted (Darlington)
Jones, Barry (Flint, E.)


Concannon, J. D.
Foot, Michael
Jones, Gwynoro (Carmarthen)


Cox, Thomas (Wandsworth, C.)
Forrester, John
Jones, T. Alec (Rhondda, W)


Crawshaw, Richard
Fraser, John (Norwood)
Judd, Frank


Cronin, John
Gilbert, Dr. John
Kaufman, Gerald


Cunningham, G. (Islington, S. W.)
Golding, John
Kerr, Russell


Dalyell. Tarn
Grant, George (Morpeth)
Kinnock, Neil







Lamond, James
Morris, Rt. Hn. John (Aberavon)
Smalt, William


Latham, Arthur
Murray, Ronald King
Spearing, Nigel


Leadbitter, Ted
Ogden, Eric
Stallard, A. W.


Leonard, Dick
O'Halloran, Michael
Stewart, Rt. Hn. Michael (Fulham)


Lewis, Arthur (W. Ham N.)
Orme, Stanley
Stoddart, David (Swindon)


Lewis, Ron (Carlisle)
Palmer, Arthur
Strang, Gavin


Lipton, Marcus
Parry, Robert (Liverpool, Exchange)
Swain, Thomas


Lomas, Kenneth
Pendry, Tom
Thomson Rt. Hn. G. (Dundee, E.)


McBride, Neil
Prescott, John
Tinn, James


McCartney, Hugh
Price, William (Rugby)
Tormey, Tom


Mackenzie, Gregor
Reed, D. (Sedgefield)
Walden, Brian (B'm'ham, All Saints)


McNamara, J. Kevin
Rees, Merlyn (Leeds, S.)
Walker, Harold (Doncaster)


Mahon, Simon (Bootle)
Roberts, Rt. Hn. Goronwy(Caemarvon)
Wellbeloved, James


Mallalieu, J. P. W. (Huddersfield, E.)
Roderick, Caerwyn E. (Br'c'n&amp;R'dnor)
Whitehead, Phillip


Marks, Kenneth
Rodgers, William (Stockton-on-Tees)
Wilson, Alexander (Hamilton)


Hellish, Rt. Hn. Robert
Roper, John
Wilson, Rt. Hn. Harold (Huyton)


Mendelson, John
Rose, Paul B.
Wilson, William (Coventry, S.)


Millan, Bruce
Ross, Rt. Hn. William (Kilmarnock)



Miller, Dr. M. 8.
Silkin, Rt. Hn. John (Deptford)
TELLERS FOR THE NOES:


Molloy, William
Sillars, James
Mr. Joseph Harper and


Morgan, Elystan (Cardiganshire)
Silverman, Julius
Mr. William Hamling.


Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw)
Skinner, Dennis

Division No. 302.]
AYES
[5. 03 a. m.


Adley, Robert
Gorst, John
Monro, Hector


Allason, James (Hemel Hempstead)
Gower, Raymond
Montgomery, Fergus


Archer, Jeffrey (Louth)
Gray, Hamish
Morgan, Geraint (Denbigh)


Atkins, Humphrey
Green, Alan
Morrison, Charles (Devizes)


Awdry, Daniel
Grylls, Michael
Mudd, David


Benyon, W.
Gummer, Selwyn
Murton, Oscar


Berry, Hn. Anthony
Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury)
Normanton, Tom


Biffen, John
Hannam, John (Exeter)
Oppenheim, Mrs. Sally


Biggs-Davison, John
Haselhurst, Alan
Osborn, John


Blaker, Peter
Havers, Michael
Owen, Idris (Stockport, N.)


Boardman, Tom (Leicester, S. W.)
Hawkins, Paul
Parkinson, Cecil (Enfield, W.)


Body, Richard
Hayhoe, Barney
Percival, Ian


Boscawen, Hn. Robert
Heseltine, Michael
Pike, Miss Mervyn


Bossom, Sir Clive
Hicks, Robert
Pink, R. Bonner


Bowden, Andrew
Hiley, Joseph
Pounder, Rafton


Bray, Ronald
Hill, James (Southampton, Test)
Powell, Rt. Hn. J. Enoch


Brewis, John
Holland, Philip
Prior, Rt. Hn. J. M. L.


Brinton, Sir Tatton
Hordern, Peter
Proudfoot, Wilfred


Bruce-Gardyne, J.
Hornby, Richard
Pym, Rt. Hn. Francis


Bryan, Paul
Hornsby-Smith, Rt. Hn. DamePatricia
Reed, Laurane (Bolton, E.)


Buchanan-Smith, Afick(Angus, N&amp;M)
Howe, Hn. Sir Geoffrey (Reigate)
Rees, Peter (Dover)


Buck, Antony
Howell, David (Guildford)
Ronton, Rt. Hn. Sir David


Bullus, Sir Eric
Howell, Ralph (Norfolk, N.)
Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon


Campbell, Rt. Hn. G. (Moray&amp;Naim)
Hunt, John
Ridley, Hn. Nicholas


Cary, Sir Robert
Hutchison, Michael Clark
Roberts, Michael (Cardiff, N.)


Channon, Paul
Iremonger, T. L.
Roberts, Wyn (Conway)


Chapman, Sydney
James, David
Rossi, Hugh (Homsey)


Chataway, Rt. Hn. Christopher
Jenkin, Patrick (Woodford)
Rost, Peter


Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe)
Jessel, Toby
Russell, Sir Ronald


Clegg, Walter
Johnson Smith, G. (E. Grinstead)
St. John-Stevas, Norman


Cooke, Robert
Jones, Arthur (Northants, S.)
Scott, Nicholas


Coombs, Derek
Jopling, Michael
Scott-Hopkins, James


Cormack, Patrick
Kimball, Marcus
Sharpies, Richard


Costain, A. P.
King, Tom (Bridgwater)
Shaw, Michael (Sc'b'gh &amp; Whitby)


Critchtey, Julian
Kinsey, J. R.
She1ton, William (Clapham)


Crouch, David
Knight, Mrs. Jill
Simeons, Charles


Curran, Charles
Knox, David
Sinclair, Sir George


d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Maj. -Gen. James
Lane, David
Skeet, T. H. H.


Dean, Paul
Langford-Holt, Sir John
Soref, Harold


Dixon, Piers
Le Marchant, Spencer
Speed, Keith


Dodds-Parker, Douglas
Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland)
Spence, John


Drayson, G. B.
McCrindle, R. A.
Sproat, Iain


Eden, Sir John
McLaren, Martin
Stainton, Keith


Edwards, Nicholas (Pembroke)
McMaster, Stanley
Stanbrook, Ivor


Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carshalton)
McNair-Wilson, Michael
Stewart-Smith, D. G. (Belper)


Elliott, R. W. (N'c'He-upon-Tyne. N.)
McNair-Wilson, Patrick (NewForest)
Stuttaford, Dr. Tom


Emery, Peter
Maddan, Martin
Sutcliffe, John


Eyre, Reginald
Madel, David
Tapsell, Peter


Farr, John
Marten, Neil
Taylor, Edward M. (G'gow, Cathcart)


Fell, Anthony
Mather, Carol
Taylor, Robert (Croydon, N. W.)


Fidler, Michael
Mawby, Ray
Tebbit, Norman


Fisher, Nigel (Surbiton)
Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J.
Thomas, John stradling (Monmouth)


Fookes, Miss Janet
Meyer, Sir Anthony
Thomas, Rt. Hn. Peter (Hendon, S.)


Fowler, Norman
Mills, Peter (Torrington)
Thompson, Sir Richard (Croydon, S.)


Fraser, Rt. Hn. Hugh (St'fford &amp; Stone)
Miscampbell, Norman
Trafford, Dr. Anthony


Gardner, Edward
Mitchell, David (Basingstoke)
Tugendhat, Christopher


Gilmour, Sir John (Fife, E.)
Moate, Roger
Vaughan, Dr. Gerard


Goodhart, Philip
Molyneaux, James
vickers, Dame Joan


Goodhew, Victor
Money, Emle
Waddington, David







Walder, David (Clitheroe)
Whitelaw, Rt. Hn. William
Worsley, Marcus


Walters, Dennis
Wiggin, Jerry
Wylie, Rt. Hn. N. R.


Ward, Dame Irene
Wilkinson, John



Warren, Kenneth
Wolrige-Gordon, Patrick
TELLERS FOR THE AYES:


Weatherill, Bernard
Wood, Rt. Hn. Richard
Mr. Jasper More and


Wells, John (Maidstone)
Woodnutt, Mark
Mr. Tim Fortescue.


White, Roger (Gravesend)






NOES


Archer, Peter (Rowley Regis)
Hannan, William (G'gow, Mary hill)
Murray, Ronald King


Armstrong, Ernest
Hardy, Peter
Ogden, Eric


Ashton, Joe
Harrison, Walter (Wakefield)
O'Halloran, Michael


Atkinson, Norman
Heffer, Eric S.
Orme, Stanley


Benn, Rt. Hn. Anthony Wedgwood
Huckfield, Leslie
Palmer, Arthur


Bidwell, Sydney
Hughes, Mark (Durham)
Parry, Robert (Liverpool, Exchange)


Brown, Bob (N'c'tte-upon-Tyne, W.)
Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen, N.)
Pendry, Tom


Brown, Ronald (Shireditch &amp; F'bury)
Hughes, Roy (Newport)
Prescott, John


Buchanan, Richard (G'gow, Sp'burn)
Janner, Greville
Price, William (Rugby)


Cant, R. B.
Jay, Rt. Hn. Douglas
Reed, D. (Sedgefield)


Carter, Ray (Birmingh'm, Northfield)
John, Brynmor
Rees, Merlyn (Leeds, S.)


Clark, David (Colne Valley)
Jones, Barry (Flint, E.)
Roberts, Rt. Hn. Goronwy (Caernarvon)


Cocks, Michael (Bristol, S.)
Jones, Gwynoro (Carmarthen)
Roderick, CaerwynE. (Br'c'n&amp;R'dnor)


Cohen, Stanley
Jones, T. Alec (Rhondda, W.)
Rodgers, William (Stockton-on-Tees)


Concannon, J. D.
Judd, Frank
Roper, John


Cox, Thomas (Wandsworth, C.)
Kaufman, Gerald
Rose, Paul B.


Crawshaw, Richard
Kerr, Russell
Ross, Rt. Hn. William (Killmarnock)


Cronin, John
Kinnock, Neil
Silkin, Rt. Hn, John (Deptford)


Cunningham, G. (Islington, S. W.)
Lamond, James
Sillars, James


Dalyell, Tarn
Latham, Arthur
Silverman, Julius


Davies, G. Elfed (Rhondda, E.)
Leadbitter, Ted
Skinner, Dennis


Davis, Clinton (Hackney, C.)
Leonard, Dick
Small, William


Deakins, Eric
Lewis, Arthur (W. Ham N.)
Spearing, Nigel


Dempsey, James
Lewis, Ron (Carlisle)
Stallard, A. W.


Douglas, Dick (Stirlingshire, E.)
Lipton, Marcus
Stewart, Rt. Hn. Michael (Fulham)


Duffy, A. E. P.
Lomas, Kenneth
Stoddart, David (Swindon)


Dunnett, Jack
McBride, Neil
Strang, Cavin


Eadie, Alex
McCartney, Hugh
Swain, Thomas


English, Michael
Mackenzie, Gregor
Thomson, Rt. Hn. G. (Dundee, E.)


Evans, Fred
Mackintosh, John P.
Tinn, James


Fernyhough, Rt. Hn. E.
McNamara, J. Kevin
Torney, Tom


Fisher, Mrs. Doris(B'ham, Ladywood)
Mahon, Simon (Bootle)
Walden, Brian (B'm'ham, AH Saints)


Fitch, Alan (Wigan)
Mallalieu, J. p. W. (Huddersfield, E.)
Walker, Harold (Doncaster)


Fletcher, Ted (Darlington)
Marks, Kenneth
Wellbeloved, James


Foot, Michael
Mellish, Rt. Hn. Robert
Whitehead, Phillip


Forrester, John
Mendelson, John
Wilson, Alexander (Hamilton)


Fraser, John (Norwood)
Millan, Bruce
Wilson, Rt. Hn. Harold (Huyton)


Gilbert, Dr. John
Miller, Dr. M. 8.
Wilson, William (Coventry, S.)


Golding, John
Molloy, William



Grant, George (Morpeth)
Morgan, Elystan (Cardiganshire)
TELLERS FOR THE NOES:


Grant, John D. (Islington, E.)
Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw)
Mr. Joseph Harper and


Hamilton, James (Bothwell)
Morris, Rt. Hn. John (Aberav(n)
Mr. William Hamling.

Division No. 303.]
AYES
[5. 16 a. m.


Adley, Robert
Clegg, Walter
Goodhart, Philip


Allason, James (Hemel Hempstead)
Cooke, Robert
Gorst, John


Archer, Jeffrey (Louth)
Cormack, Patrick
Cower, Raymond


Atkins, Humphrey
Costain, A. P.
Gray, Hamish


Baker, W. H. K. (Banff)
Critchley, Julian
Green, Alan


Benyon, W.
Crouch, David
Griffiths, Eldon (Bury St. Edmunds)


Berry, Hn. Anthony
Curran, Charles
Grylls, Michael


Biffen, John
d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Maj. -Gen. James
Gummer, Selwyn


Biggs-Davison, John
Dean, Paul
Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury)


Blaker, Peter
Dixon, Piers
Hannam, John (Exeter)


Boardman, Tom (Leicester, S. W.)
Dodds-Parker, Douglas
Haselhurst, Alan


Body, Richard
Dykes, Hugh
Havers, Michael


Boscawen, Robert
Eden, Sir John
Hawkins, Paul


Bossom, Sir Clive
Edwards, Nicholas (Pembroke)
Hayhoe, Barney


Bowden, Andrew
Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carshalton)
Heseltine, Michael


Bray, Ronald
Elliott, R W. (N'c'tte-upon-Tyne, N.)
Hicks, Robert


Brewis, John
Emery, Peter
Hiley, Joseph


Brinton, Sir Tatton
Eyre, Reginald
Holland, Philip


Bruce-Gardyne, J.
Fell, Anthony
Hordem, Peter


Bachanan-Smith, Alick(Angus, N&amp;M)
Fidler, Michael
Hornby, Richard


Buck, Antony
Fisher, Nigel (Surbiton)
Hornsby-Smith, Rt. Hn. Dame Patricia


Bullus, Sir Eric
Fookes, Miss Janet
Howe, Hn. Sir Geoffrey (Reigate)


Campbell, Rt. Hn. G. (Moray&amp;Nairn)
Fortescue, Tim
Howell, David (Guildford)


Cary, Sir Robert
Fowler, Norman
Howell, Ralph (Norfolk, N.)


Channon, Paul
Fox, Marcus
Hunt, John


Chapman, Sydney
Fraser, Rt. Hn. Hugh(St'fford &amp; Stone)
Hutchison, Michael Clark


Chataway, Rt. Hn. Christopher
Gardner, Edward
Iremonger, T. L.


Clarke. Kenneth (Rushcliffe)
Gilmour, Sir John (Fife, E.)
James, David







Jenkin, Patrick (Woodford)
Morrison, Charles (Devizes)
Sproat, Iain


Jessel, Toby
Mudd, David
Stainton, Keith


Johnson Smith, G. E. Grinstead)
Murton, Oscar
Stanbrook, Ivor


Jones, Arthur (Northants, S.)
Normanton, Tom
Stewart-Smith, D. G. (Belper)


Jopling, Michael
Oppenheim, Mrs. Sally
Stuttaford, Dr. Tom


Kimball, Marcus
Osborn, John
Sutcliffe, John


King, Tom (Bridgwater)
Owen, Idris (Stockport, N.)
Tapsell, Peter


Kinsey, J. R.
Percival, Ian
Taylor,Edward M.(G'gow, Cathcart)


Knight, Mrs. Jill
Pike, Miss Mervyn
Taylor, Robert (Croydon, N.W.)


Knox, David
Pink, R. Bonner
Tebbit, Norman


Lane, David
Pounder, Rafton
Thomas, John Stradling (Monmouth)


Langford-Holt, Sir John
Powell, Rt. Hn. J. Enoch
Thompson, Sir Richard (Croydon, S.)


Le Marchant, Spencer
Prior, Rt. Hn. J. M. L.
Trafford, Dr. Anthony


Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland)
Proudfoot, Wilfred
Tugendhat, Christopher


McCrindle, R. A.
Pym, Rt. Hn. Francis
Vaughan, Dr. Gerard


McLaren, Martin
Ramsden, Rt. Hn. James
Vickers, Dame Joan


McMaster, Stanley
Reed, Laurance (Bolton, E.)
Waddington, David


McNair-Wilson, Michael
Rees, Peter (Dover)
Walder, David (Clitheroe)


Maddan, Martin
Renton, Rt. Hn. Sir David
Walters, Dennis


Madel, David
Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon
Ward, Dame Irene


Maginnis, John E.
Ridley, Hn. Nicholas
Warren, Kenneth


Marten, Neil
Roberts, Michael (Cardiff, N.)
Weatherill, Bernard


Mather, Carol
Roberts, Wyn (Conway)
Wells, John (Maidstone)


Mawby, Ray
Rossi, Hugh (Hornsey)
White, Roger (Gravesend)


Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J.
Rost, Peter
Whitelaw, Rt. Hn. William


Meyer, Sir Anthony
Russell, Sir Ronald
Wiggin, Jerry


Mills, Peter (Torrington)
St. John-Stevas, Norman
Wilkinson, John


Miscampbell, Norman
Scott, Nicholas
Wolrige-Gordon, Patrick




Wood, Rt. Hn. Richard


Mitchell, Lt. -Col. C.(Aberdeenshire, W)
Scott-Hopkins, James
Woodhouse, Hn. Christopher


Mitchell, David (Basingstoke)
Sharpies, Richard
Woodnutt, Mark


Moate, Roger
Shaw, Michael (Sc'b'gh &amp; Whitby)
Worsley, Marcus


Molyneaux, James
Shelton, William (Clapham)
Wylie, Rt. Hn. N. R.


Money, Ernie
Simeons, Charles



Monro, Hector
Sinclair, Sir George
TELLERS FOR THE AYES:


Montgomery, Fergus
Skeet, T. H. H.
Mr. Victor Goodhew and


More, Jasper
Soref, Harold
Mr. Keith Speed.


Morgan, Geraint (Denbigh)
Spence, John





NOES


Archer, Peter (Rowley Regis)
Hannan, William (G'gow, Maryhill)
Murray, Ronald King


Armstrong, Ernest
Hardy, Peter
Ogden, Eric


Ashton, Joe
Harrison, Walter (Wakefield)
O'Halloran, Michael


Atkinson, Norman
Heffer, Eric S.
Orme, Stanley


Benn, Rt. Hn. Anthony Wedgwood
Huckfield, Leslie
Palmer, Arthur


Bidwell, Sydney
Hughes, Mark (Durham)
Parry, Robert (Liverpool, Exchange)


Brown, Bob (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne, W.)
Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen, N.)
Pendry, Tom


Brown, Ronald (Shoreditch &amp; F'bury)
Hughes, Roy (Newport)
Prescott, John


Buchanan, Richard (G'gow, Sp'burn)
Janner, Greville
Price, William (Rugby)


Cant, R. B.
Jay, Rt. Hn. Douglas
Reed, D. (Sedgefield)


Carter, Ray (Birmingh'm, Northfield)
John, Brynmor
Rees, Merlyn (Leeds, S.)


Clark, David (Colne Valley)
Jones, Barry (Flint, E.)
Roberts, Rt. Hn. Goronwy(Caernarvon)


Cocks, Michael (Bristol, S.)
Jones, Gwynoro (Carmarthen)
Roderick, Caerwyn E.(Br'c'n&amp;R'dnor)


Cohen, Stanley
Jones, T. Alec (Rhondda, W.)
Rodgers, William (Stockton-on-Tees)


Concannon, J. D.
Judd, Frank
Roper, John


Cox, Thomas (Wandsworth, c.
Kaufman, Gerald
Rose, Paul B.


Crawshaw, Richard
Kerr, Russell
Roes, Rt. Hn. William (Kilmarnock)


Cronin, John
Kinnock, Neil
Silkin, Rt. Hn. John (Deptford)


Cunningham, G. (Islington, S.W.)
Lamond, James
Sillars, James


Dalyell, Tam
Latham, Arthur
Silverman, Julius


Davies, G. Elfed (Rhondda, E.)
Leadbitter, Ted
Skinner, Dennis


Davis, Clinton (Hackney, C.)
Leonard, Dick
Small, William


Deakins, Erie
Lewis, Arthur (W. Ham, N.)
Spearing, Nigel


Dempsey, James
Lewis, Ron (Carlisle)
Stallard, A. W.


Douglas, Dick (Stirlingshire, E.)
Upton, Marcus
Stewart, Rt. Hn. Michael (Fulham)


Duffy, A. E. P.
Lomas, Kenneth
Stoddart, David (Swindon)


Dunnett, Jack
McBride, Neil
Strang, Gavin


Eadie, Alex
McCartney, Hugh
Swain, Thomas


English, Michael
Mackenzie, Gregor
Thomson, Rt. Hn. G. (Dundee, E.)


Evans, Fred
Mackintosh, John P.
Tinn, James


Fernyhough, Rt. Hn. E.
McNamara, J. Kevin
Torney, Tom


Fisher, Mrs. Doris (B'ham,Ladywood)
Mahon, Simon (Bootle)
Walden, Brian (B'm'ham, All Saints)


Fitch, Alan (Wigan)
Mallalieu, J. P. W. (Huddersfield, E.)
Walker, Harold (Doncaster)


Fletcher, Ted (Darlington)
Marks, Kenneth
Wellbeloved, James


Foot, Michael
Mellish, Rt. Hn. Robert
Wilson, Alexander (Hamilton)


Forrester, John
Mendelson, John
Wilson, Rt. Hn. Harold (Huyton)


Fraser, John (Norwood)
Millan, Bruce
Wilson, William (Coventry, S.)


Gilbert, Dr. John
Miller, Or. M. S.



Golding, John
Molloy, William
TELLERS FOR THE NOES:


Grant, George (Morpeth)
Morgan, Elystan (Cardiganshire)
Mr. Joseph Harper and


Grant, John D. (Islington, E.)
Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw)
Mr. William Handing.


Hamilton, James (Bothwell)
Morris, Rt. Hn. John (Aberavon)

Division No. 304.]
AYES
[5.27 a.m.


Adley, Robert
Griffiths, Eldon (Bury St. Edmunds)
Pounder, Rafton


Allason, James (Hemel Hempstead)
Grylls, Michael
Powell, Rt. Hn. J. Enoch


Archer, Jeffrey (Louth)
Gummer, Selwyn
Prior, Rt. Hn. J. M. L.


Astor, John
Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury)
Proudfoot, Wilfred


Atkins, Humphrey
Hannam, John (Exeter)
Pym, Rt. Hn. Francis


Awdry, Daniel
Haselhurst, Alan
Raison, Timothy


Baker, Kenneth (St. Marylebone)
Havers, Michael
Ramsden, Rt. Hn. James


Baker, W. H. K. (Banff)
Hayhoe, Barney
Reed, Laurance (Bolton, E.)


Balniel, Lord
Heseltine, Michael
Rees, Peter (Dover)


Benyon, W.
Hicks, Robert
Renton, Rt. Hn. Sir David


Berry, Hn. Anthony
Hiley, Joseph
Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon


Biffen, John
Hill, James (Southampton, Test)
Ridley, Hn. Nicholas


Biggs-Davison, John
Holland, Philip
Roberts, Michael (Cardiff, N.)


Blaker, Peter
Hordern, Peter
Roberts, Wyn (Conway)


Boardman, Tom (Leicester, S. W.)
Hornby, Richard
Rossi, Hugh (Hornsey)


Body, Richard
Hornsby-Smith, Rt. Hn. Dame Patricia
Rost, Peter


Boscawen, Robert
Howe, Hn. Sir Geoffrey (Reigate)
Russell, Sir Ronald


Bossom, Sir Clive
Howell, David (Guildford)
St. John-stevas, Norman


Bowden, Andrew
Howell, Ralph (Norfolk, N.)
Scott, Nicholas


Bray, Ronald
Hunt, John
Scott-Hopkins, James


Brewis, John
Hutchison, Michael Clark
Sharples, Richard


Brinton, Sir Tatton
Iremonger, T. L.
Shaw, Michael (Sc'b'gh &amp; Whitby)


Bruce-Gardyne, J.
James, David
Shelton, William (Clapham)


Buchanan-Smith, Alick(Angus, N &amp; M)
Jenkin, Patrick (Woodford)
Simeons, Charles


Buck, Antony
Jessel, Toby
Sinclair, Sir George


Bullus, Sir Eric
Johnson Smith, G. (E. Grinstead)
Skeet, T. H. H.


Butler, Adam (Bosworth)
Jones, Arthur (Northants, S.)
Soref, Harold


Campbell, Rt. Hn.G.(Moray &amp; Nairn)
Jopling, Michael
Speed, Keith


Cary, Sir Robert
Kimball, Marcus
Spence, John


Shannon, Paul
King, Tom (Bridgwater)
Sproat, Iain


Chapman, Sydney
Kinsey, J. R.
Stainton, Keith


Chataway, Rt. Hn. Christopher
Kitson, Timothy
Stanbrook, Ivor


Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe)
Knight, Mrs. Jill
Stewart-Smith, D. G. (Belper)


Clegg, Walter
Knox, David
Stuttaford, Dr. Tom


Cooke, Robert
Lane, David
Sutcliffe, John


Cormack, Patrick
Langford-Holt, Sir John
Tapsell, Peter


Costain, A. P.
Le Marchant, Spencer
Taylor, Edward M.(G'gow, Cathcart)


Critchley, Julian
Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland)
Taylor, Robert (Croydon, N. W.)


Crouch, David
McCrindle, R. A.
Tebbit, Norman


Curran, Charles
McLaren, Martin
Thomas, John Stradling (Monmouth)


d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Maj.-Gen. James
McMaster, Stanley
Thomas, Rt. Hn. Peter (Hendon, S.)


Dean, Paul
McNair-Wilson, Michael
Thompson, Sir Richard (Croydon, S.)


Dixon, Piers
Maddan, Martin
Trafford, Dr. Anthony


Dodds-Parker, Douglas
Madel, David
Trew, Peter


Dykes, Hugh
Maginnis, John E.
Tugendhat, Christopher


Eden, Sir John
Mather, Carol
van Straubenzee, W. R.


Edwards, Nicholas (Pembroke)
Marten, Neil
Vaughan, Dr. Gerard


Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carshalton)
Mawby, Ray
Vickers, Dame Joan


Elliott, R. W. (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne, N.)
Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J.
Waddington, David


Emery, Peter
Meyer, Sir Anthony
Walder, David (Clitheroe)


Eyre, Reginald
Miscampbell, Norman
Walters, Dennis


Fell, Anthony
Mitchell, Lt.-Col. C. (Aberdeenshire, W.)
Ward, Dame Irene


Fidler, Michael
Moate, Roger
Warren, Kenneth


Fisher, Nigel (Surbiton)
Molyneaux, James
Wells, John (Maidstone)


Fookes, Miss Janet
Money, Ernie
White, Roger (Gravesend)


Fortescue, Tim
Monro, Hector
Whitelaw, Rt. Hn. William


Fowler, Norman
Montgomery, Fergus
Wiggin, Jerry


Fox, Marcus
Morgan, Geraint (Denbigh)
Wilkinson, John


Fraser, Rt. Hn. Hugh (St'Rord &amp; Stone)
Morrison, Charles (Devizes)
Wolrige-Gordon, Patrick


Fry, Peter
Mudd, David
Wood, Rt. Hn. Richard


Gardner, Edward
Murton, Oscar
Woodhouse, Hn. Christopher


Gibson-Watt, David
Noble, Rt. Hn. Michael
Woodnutt, Mark


Gilmour, Ian (Norfolk, C.)
Normanton, Tom
Worsley, Marcus


Gilmour, Sir John (Fife, E.)
Oppenheim, Mrs. Sally
Wylie, Rt. Hn. N. R.


Goodhart, Philip
Osborn, John



Goodhew, Victor
Owen, Idris (Stockport, N.)
TELLERS FOR THE AYES:


Gorst, John
Percival, Ian
Mr. Bernard Weatherill and


Gower, Raymond
Pike, Miss Mervyn
Mr. Paul Hawkins.


Green, Alan
Pink, R. Bonner





NOES


Archer, Peter (Rowley Regis)
Buchanan, Richard (G'gow, Sp'burn)
Crawshaw, Richard


Armstrong, Ernest
Cant, n. B.
Cronin, John


Ashton, Joe
Carter, Ray (Birmingh'm, Northfield)
Cunningham, G. (Islington, S. W.)


Atkinson, Norman
Clark, David (Colne Valley)
Dalyell, Tam


Benn, Rt. Hn. Anthony Wedgwood
Cocks, Michael (Bristol, S.)
Davies, G. Elfed (Rhondda, E.)


Bidwell, Sydney
Cohen, Stanley
Davis, Clinton (Hackney, C.)


Brown, Bob (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne, W.)
Concannon, J. D.
Deakins, Eric


Brown, Ronald (Shoreditch &amp; F'bury)
Cox, Thomas (Wandsworth, C.)
Dempsey, James







Douglas, Dick (Stirlingshire, E.)
Kerr, Russell
Reed, D. (Sedgefield)


Duffy, A. E. P.
Kinnock, Neil
Rees, Merlyn (Leeds, S.)


Dunnett, Jack
Lamond, James
Roberts, Rt. Hn. Goronwy (Caernarvon)


Eadie, Alex
Latham, Arthur
Roderick, Caerwyn E. (Br'c'n &amp; R'dnor)


English, Michael
Leadbitter, Ted
Rodgers, William (Stockton-on-Tees)


Evans, Fred
Leonard, Dick
Roper, John


Fernyhough, Rt. Hn. E.
Lewis, Arthur (W. Ham, N.)
Rose, Paul B.


Fisher, Mrs. Doris (B'ham, Ladywood)
Lewis, Bon (Carlisle)
Ross, Rt. Hn. William (Kilmarnock)


Fitch, Alan (Wigan)
Lipton, Marcus
Silkin, Rt. Hn. John (Deptford)


Fletcher, Ted (Darlington)
Lomas, Kenneth
Sillars, James


Foot, Michael
McBride, Neil
Silverman, Julius


Forrester, John
McCartney, Hugh
Skinner, Dennis


Fraser, John (Norwood)
Mackenzie, Gregor
Small, William


Gilbert, Dr. John
Mackintosh, John P.
Spearing, Nigel


Golding, John
McNamara, J. Kevin
Stallard, A. W.


Grant, George (Morpeth)
Mahon, Simon (Bootle)
Stewart, Rt. Hn. Michael (Fulham)


Grant, John D. (Islington, E.)
Mallalieu, J. P. W. (Huddersfield, E.)
Stoddart, David (Swinon)


Hamilton, James (Bothwell)
Marks, Kenneth
Strang, Gavin


Hannan, William (G'gow, Maryhill)
Mellish, Rt. Hn. Robert
Swain, Thomas


Hardy, Peter
Mendelson, John
Thomson, Rt. Hn. G. (Dundee, E.)


Harrison, Walter (Wakefield)
Millan, Bruce
Tinn, James


Heffer, Eric S.
Miller, Dr. M. S.
Torney, Tom


Huckfield, Leslie
Molloy, William
Walden, Brian (B'm'ham, All Saints)


Hughes, Mark (Durham)
Morgan, Elystan (Cardiganshire)
Walker, Harold (Doncaster)


Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen, N.)
Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw)
Wellbeloved, James


Hughes, Roy (Newport)
Morris, Rt. Hn. John (Aberavon)
Whitehead, Phillip


Janner, Greville
Murray, Ronald King
Wilson, Alexander (Hamilton)


Jay, Rt. Hn. Douglas
Ogden, Eric
Wilson, Rt. Hn. Harold (Huyton)


John, Brynmor
O'Halloran, Michael
Wilson, William (Coventry, S.)


Jones, Barry (Flint, E.)
Orme, Stanley



Jones Gwynoro (Carmarthen)
Palmer, Arthur
TELLERS FOR THE NOES:


Jones, T. Alec (Rhondda, W.)
Parry, Robert (Liverpool, Exchange)
Mr. Joseph Harper and


Judd, Frank
Pendry, Tom
Mr. William Hamling.


Kaufman, Gerald
Prescott, John

Division No. 305.]
AYES
[5.40 a.m.


Adley, Robert
Edwards, Nicholas (Pembroke)
Iremonger, T. L.


Allason, James (Hemel Hempstead)
Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carshalton)
James, David


Archer, Jeffrey (Louth)
Elliott, R. W. (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne, N.)
Jenkin, Patrick (Woodford)


Astor, John
Emery, Peter
Jessel, Toby


Atkins, Humphrey
Eyre, Reginald
Johnson Smith, G. (E. Grinstead)


Awdry, Daniel
Farr, John
Jones, Arthur (Northants, S.)


Baker, Kenneth (St. Marylebone)
Fell, Anthony
Jopling, Michael


Baker, W. H. K. (Banff)
Fidler, Michael
Kimball, Marcus


Balniel, Lord
Finsberg, Geoffrey (Hampstead)
King, Tom (Bridgwater)


Benyon, W.
Fisher, Nigel (Surbiton)
Kinsey, J. R.


Berry, Hn. Anthony
Fookes, Miss Janet
Kitson, Timothy


Biffen, John
Fowler, Norman
Knight, Mrs. Jill


Biggs-Davison, John
Fox, Marcus
Knox, David


Blaker, Peter
Fraser, Rt. Hn. Hugh (St'fford &amp; Stone)
Lane, David


Boardman, Tom (Leicester, S. W.)
Fry, Peter
Langford-Holt, Sir John


Body, Richard
Gardner, Edward
Le Marchant, Spencer


Boscawen, Robert
Gibson-Watt, David
Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland)


Bossom, Sir Clive
Gilmour, Ian (Norfolk, C.)
McCrindle, R. A.


Bray, Ronald
Gilmour, Sir John (Fife, E.)
McLaren, Martin


Brewis, John
Goodhart, Philip
McMaster, Stanley


Brinton, Sir Tatton
Goodhew, Victor
McNair-Wilson, Michael


Bruce-Gardyne, J.
Gorst, John
Maddan, Martin


Bryan, Paul
Gower, Raymond
Madel, David


Buchanan-Smith, Alick (Angus, N &amp; M)
Gray, Hamish
Maginnis, John E.


Buck, Antony
Green, Alan
Marten, Neil


Bullus, Sir Eric
Griffiths, Eldon (Bury St. Edmunds)
Mather, Carol


Butler, Adam (Bosworth)
Grylls, Michael
Mawby, Ray


Campbell, Rt. Hn. G. (Moray &amp; Nairn)
Gummer, Selwyn
Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J.


Cary, Sir Robert
Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury)
Meyer, Sir Anthony


Channon, Paul
Hannam, John (Exeter)
Miscampbell, Norman


Chapman, Sydney
Haselhurst, Alan
Mitchell, Lt.-Col. C. (Aberdeenshire, W)


Chataway, Rt. Hn. Chistopher
Havers, Michael
Mitchell, David (Basingstoke)


Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe)
Hawkins, Paul
Moate, Roger


Cockeram, Eric
Hayhoe, Barney
Molyneaux, James


Cooke, Robert
Heseltine, Michael
Money, Ernie


Coombs, Derek
Hicks, Robert
Monro, Hector


Cormack, Patrick
Hiley, Joseph
Montgomery, Fergus


Costain, A. P.
Hill, James (Southampton, Test)
Morgan, Geraint (Denbigh)


Critchley, Julian
Holland, Philip
Morrison, Charles (Devizes)


Crouch, David
Hordern, Peter
Mudd, David


Curran, Charles
Hornby, Richard
Murton, Oscar


d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Maj.-Gen. James
Hornsby-Smith, Rt. Hn. Dame Patricia
Noble, Rt. Hn. Michael


Dean, Paul
Howe, Hn. Sir Geoffrey (Reigate)
Normanton, Tom


Dixon, Piers
Howell, David (Guildford)
Oppenheim, Mrs. Sally


Dodds-Parker, Douglas
Howell, Ralph (Norfolk, N.)
Osborn, John


Dykes, Hugh
Hunt, John
Owen, Idris (Stockport, N.)


Eden, Sir John
Hutchison, Michael Clark
Parkinson, Cecil (Enfield, W.)







Percival, Ian
Shaw, Michael (Sc'b'gh &amp; Whitby)
van Straubenzee, W. R.


Pike, Miss Mervyn
Shelton, William (Clapham)
Vickers, Dame Joan


Pink, R. Bonner
Simeons, Charles
Waddington, David


Pounder, Rafton
Sinclair, Sir George
Walder, David (Clitheroe)


Powell, Rt. Hn. J. Enoch
Skeet, T. H. H.
Walters, Dennis


Prior, Rt. Hn. J. M. L.
Soref, Harold
Ward, Dame Irene


Proudfoot, Wilfred
Speed, Keith
Warren, Kenneth


Pym, Rt. Hn. Francis
Spence, John
Weatherill, Bernard


Raison, Timothy
Sproat, Iain
Wells, John (Maidstone)


Reed, Laurance (Bolton, E.)
Stainton, Keith
White, Roger (Gravesend)


Rees, Peter (Dover)
Stanbrook, Ivor
Whitelaw, Rt. Hn. William


Renton, Rt. Hn. Sir David
Stewart-Smith, D. C. (Belper)
Wiggin, Jerry


Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon
Stuttaford, Dr. Tom
Wilkinson, John


Ridley, Hn. Nicholas
Sutcliffe, John
Wolrige-Gordon, Patrick


Roberts, Michael (Cardiff, N.)
Tapsell, Peter
Wood, Rt. Hn. Richard


Roberts, Wyn (Conway)
Taylor, Edward M. (G'gow, Cathcart)
Woodhouse, Hn. Christopher


Rossi, Hugh (Hornsey)
Taylor, Robert (Croydon, N. W.)
Woodnutt, Mark


Rost, Peter
Tebbit, Norman
Worsley, Marcus


Russell, Sir Ronald
Thomas, John Stradling (Monmouth)
Wylie, Rt. Hn. N. R.


St. John-stevas, Norman
Thomas, Rt. Hn. Peter (Hendon, S.)



Scott, Nicholas
Thompson, Sir Richard (Croydon, S.)
TELLERS FOR THE AYES:


Scott-Hopkins, James
Trew, Peter
Mr. Walter Clegg and


Sharples, Richard
Tugendhat, Christopher
Mr. Tim Fortescue.




NOES


Archer, Peter (Rowley Regis)
Hannan, William (G'gow, Maryhill)
Murray, Ronald King


Armstrong, Ernest
Hardy, Peter
Ogden, Eric


Ashton, Joe
Harper, Joseph
O'Halloran, Michael


Atkinson, Norman
Heffer, Eric S.
Orme, Stanley


Benn, Rt. Hn. Anthony Wedgwood
Huckfield, Leslie
Palmer, Arthur


Bidwell, Sydney
Hughes, Mark (Durham)
Parry, Robert (Liverpool, Exchange)


Brown, Bob (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne, W.)
Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen, N.)
Pendry, Tom


Brown, Ronald (Shoreditch &amp; F'bury)
Hughes, Roy (Newport)
Prescott, John


Buchanan, Richard (G'gow, Sp'burn)
Janner, Greville
Price, William (Rugby)


Cant, R. B.
Jay, Rt. Hn. Douglas
Reed, D. (Sedgefield)


Carter, Ray (Birmingh'm, Northfield)
John, Brynmor
Rees, Merlyn (Leeds, S.)


Clark, David (Colne Valley)
Jones, Barry (Flint, E.)
Roberts, Rt. Hn. Goronwy (Caernarvon)


Cocks, Michael (Bristol, S.)
Jones, Gwynoro (Carmarthen)
Roderick, CaerwynE. (Br'c'n &amp; Radnor)


Cohen, Stanley
Jones, T. Alec (Rhondda, W.)
Rodgers, William (Stockton-on-Tees)


Concannon, J. D.
Judd, Frank
Roper, John


Cox, Thomas (Wandsworth, C.)
Kaufman, Gerald
Ross, Rt. Hn. William (Kilmarnock)


Crawshaw, Richard
Kerr, Russell
Silkin, Rt. Hn. John (Deptford)


Cronin, John
Kinnock, Neil
Sillars, James


Cunningham, G. (Islington, S. W.)
Lamond, James
Silverman, Julius


Dalyell, Tam
Latham, Arthur
Skinner, Dennis


Davies, G. Elfed (Rhondda, E.)
Leadbitter, Ted
Small, William


Davis, Clinton (Hackney, C.)
Leonard, Dick
Spearing, Nigel


Deakins, Eric
Lewis, Arthur (W. Ham, N.)
Stallard, A. W.


Dempsey, James
Lewis, Ron (Carlisle)
Stewart, Rt. Hn. Michael (Fulham)


Douglas, Dick (Stirlingshire, E.)
Lipton, Marcus
Stoddart, David (Swindon)


Duffy, A. E. P.
Lomas, Kenneth
Strang, Gavin


Dunnett, Jack
McBride, Neil
Swain, Thomas


Eadie, Alex
McCartney, Hugh
Thomson, Rt. Hn. G. (Dundee, E.)


English, Michael
Mackenzie, Gregor
Tinn, James


Evans, Fred
Mackintosh, John P.
Torney, Tom


Fernyhough, Rt. Hn. E.
McNamara, J. Kevin
Walden, Brian (B'm'ham, All Saints)


Fisher, Mrs. Doris (B'ham, Ladywood)
Mahon, Simon (Bootle)
Walker, Harold (Doncaster)


Fletcher, Ted (Darlington)
Mallalieu, J. P. W. (Huddersfield, E.)
Wellbeloved, James


Foot, Michael
Marks, Kenneth
Whitehead, Phillip


Forrester, John
Mellish, Rt. Hn. Robert
Wilson, Alexander (Hamilton)


Fraser, John (Norwood)
Mendelson, John
Wilson, Rt. Hn. Harold (Huyton)


Gilbert, Dr. John
Millan, Bruce
Wilson, William (Coventry, S.)


Golding, John
Miller, Dr. M. S.



Grant, George (Morpeth)
Molloy, William
TELLERS FOR THE NOES:


Grant, John D. (Islington, E.)
Morgan, Elystan (Cardiganshire)
Mr. Alan Fitch and


Hamilton, James (Bothwell)
Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw)
Mr. Walter Harrison.


Hamling, William
Morris, Rt. Hn. John (Aberavon)

Division No. 306.]
AYES
[6.2 a.m.


Adley, Robert
Boardman, Tom (Leicester, S. W.)
Butler, Adam (Bosworth)


Allason, James (Hemel Hempstead)
Body, Richard
Campbell, Rt.Hn.G.(Moray &amp; Nairn)


Astor, John
Boscawen, Robert
Cary, Sir Robert


Atkins, Humphrey
Bossom, Sir Clive
Channon, Paul


Baker, Kenneth (St. Marylebone)
Bray, Ronald
Chapman, Sydney


Baker, W. H. K. (Banff)
Brewis, John
Chataway, Rt. Hn. Christopher


Balniel, Lord
Brinton, Sir Tatton
Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe)


Benyon, W.
Bruce-Gardyne, J.
Clegg, Walter


Berry, Hn. Anthony
Bryan, Paul
Cockeram, Eric


Biffen, John
Buchanan-Smith, Alick (Angus, N &amp; M)
Cooke, Robert


Biggs-Davison, John
Buck, Antony
Coombs, Derek


Blaker, Peter
Bullus, Sir Eric
Cormack, Patrick







costain, A. P.
Johnson Smith, G. (E. Grinstead)
Ridley, Hn. Nicholas


Critchley, Julian
Jones, Arthur (Northants, S.)
Roberts, Michael (Cardiff, N.)


Crouch, David
Jopling, Michael
Roberts, Wyn (Conway)


Curran, Charles
Kimball, Marcus
Rossi, Hugh (Hornsey)


d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Maj.-Gen. Jack
King, Tom (Bridgwater)
Rost, Peter


Dixon, Piers
Kinsey, J. R.
Russell, Sir Ronald


Dodds-Parker, Douglas
Kitson, Timothy
St. John-Stevas, Norman


Drayson, G. B.
Knight, Mrs. Jill
Scott, Nicholas


Eden, Sir John
Knox, David
Scott-Hopkins, James


Edwards, Nicholas (Pembroke)
Lane, David
Sharples, Richard


Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carshalton)
Langford-Holt, Sir John
Shaw, Michael (Sc'b'gh &amp; Whitby)


Elliott, R. W. (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne, N.)
Le Marchant, Spencer
Shelton, William (Clapham)


Emery, Peter
McCrindle, R. A.
Simeons, Charles


Eyre, Reginald
McLaren, Martin
Sinclair, Sir George


Farr, John
McMaster, Stanley
Skeet, T. H. H.


Fell, Anthony
McNair-Wilson, Michael
Soref, Harold


Fidler, Michael
McNair-Wilson, Patrick (NewForest)
Speed, Keith


Finsberg, Geoffrey (Hampstead)
Maddan, Martin
Spence, John


Fisher, Nigel (Surbiton)
Madel, David
Sproat, Iain


Fookes, Miss Janet
Maginnis, John E.
Stainton, Keith


Fortescue, Tim
Marten, Neil
Stanbrook, Ivor


Fowler, Norman
Mather, Carol
Stewart-Smith, D. G. (Belper)


Fox, Marcus
Mawby, Ray
Stuttaford, Dr. Tom


Fraser, Rt. Hn. Hugh (St'fford &amp; Stone)
Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J.
Sutcliffe, John


Fry, Peter
Meyer, Sir Anthony



Gardner, Edward
Mills, Peter (Torrington)
Tapsell, Peter


Gibson-Watt, David
Miscampbell, Norman
Taylor, Edward M.(G'gow, Cathcart)


Gilmour, Ian (Norfolk, C.)
Mitchell, Lt. -Col. C.(Aberdeenshire, W)
Taylor, Robert (Croydon, N. W.)


Gilmour, Sir John (Fife, E.)
Mitchell, David (Basingstoke)
Tebbit, Norman


Goodhart, Philip
Moate, Roger
Thomas, John Stradiing (Monmouth)


Gorst, John
Molyneaux, James
Thomas, Rt. Hn. Peter (Hendon, S.)


Gower, Raymond
Money, Ernie
Thompson, Sir Richard (Croydon, S.)


Gray, Hamish
Montgomery, Fergus
Trew, Peter


Green, Alan
More, Jasper
Tugendhat, Christopher


Griffiths, Eldon (Bury St. Edmunds)
Morgan, Geraint (Denbigh)
van Straubenzee, W. R.


Grylls, Michael
Morrison, Charles (Devizes)
Vickers, Dame Joan


Gummer, Selwyn
Mudd, David
Waddington, David


Hall, Miss Joan (Keighley)
Murton, Oscar
Walder, David (Clitheroe)


Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury)
Noble, Rt. Hn. Michael
Walters, Dennis


Haselhurst, Alan
Normanton, Tom
Ward, Dame Irene


Havers, Michael
Oppenheim, Mrs. Sally
Warren, Kenneth


Hawkins, Paul
Orr, Capt. L. P. S.
Weatherill, Bernard


Hayhoe, Barney
Osborn, John
Wells, John (Maidstone)


Heseltine, Michael
Owen, Idris (Stockport, N.)
Whitelaw, Rt. Hn. William


Hill, James (Southampton, Test)
Parkinson, Cecil (Enfield, W.)
Wiggin, Jerry


Holland, Philip
Percival, Ian
Wilkinson, John


Hordern, Peter
Pike, Miss Mervyn
Wolrige-Gordon, Patrick


Hornsby-Smith, Rt. Hn. Dame Patricia
Pink, R. Bonner
Wood, Rt. Hn. Richard


Howe, Hn. Sir Geoffrey (Reigate)
Pounder, Rafton
Woodhouse, Hn. Christopher


Howell, David (Guildford)
Powell, Rt. Hn. J. Enoch
Woodnutt, Mark


Howell, Ralph (Norfolk, N.)
Prior, Rt. Hn. J. M. L.
Worsley, Marcus


Hunt, John
Pym, Rt. Hn. Francis
Wylie, Rt. Hn. N. R.


Hutchison, Michael Clark
Raison, Timothy



Iremonger, T. L.
Reed, Laurance (Bolton, E.)
TELLERS FOR THE AYES:


James, David
Rees, Peter (Dover)
Mr. Hector Monro


Jenkin, Patrick (Woodford)
Renton, Rt. Hn. Sir David
and Mr. Victor Goodhew.


Jessel, Toby
Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon





NOES


Archer, Peter (Rowley Regis)
Douglas, Dick (Stirlingshire, E.)
Hughes, Roy (Newport)


Armstrong, Ernest
Duffy, A. E. P.
Janner, Greville


Ashton, Joe
Dunnett, Jack
Jay, Rt. Hn. Douglas


Atkinson, Norman
Eadie, Alex
John, Brynmor


Benn, Rt. Hn. Anthony Wedgwood
English, Michael
Jones, Barry (Flint, E.)


Bidwell, Sydney
Evans, Fred
Jones, Gwynoro (Carmarthen)


Brown, Bob (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne, W.)
Fernyhough, Rt. Hn. E.
Jones, T. Alec (Rhondda, W.)


Brown, Ronald (Shoreditch &amp; F'bury)
Fisher, Mrs. Doris (B'ham, Ladywood)
Judd, Frank


Buchanan, Richard (G'gow, Sp'burn)
Fletcher, Ted (Darlington)
Kaufman, Gerald


Cant, R. B.
Foot, Michael
Kerr, Russell


Carter, Ray (Birmingh'm, Northfield)
Forrester, John
Kinnock, Neil


Clark, David (Colne Valley)
Fraser, John (Norwood)
Lamond, James


Cocks, Michael (Bristol, S.)
Gilbert, Dr. John
Latham, Arthur


Cohen, Stanley
Grant, George (Morpeth)
Leadbitter, Ted


Concannon, J. D.
Grant, John D. (Islington, E.)
Leonard, Dick


Cox, Thomas (Wandsworth, C.)
Hamilton, James (Bothwell)
Lewis, Arthur (W. Ham, N.)


Crawshaw, Richard
Hamling, William
Lewis, Ron (Carlisle)


Cronin, John
Hannan, William (G'gow, Maryhill)
Lipton, Marcus


Cunningham, G. (Islington, S.W.)
Hardy, Peter
Lomas, Kenneth


Dalyell, Tam
Harper, Joseph
McBride, Neil


Davies, G. Elfed (Rhondda, E.)
Harrison, Walter (Wakefield)
McCartney, Hugh


Davis, Clinton (Hackney, C.)
Heffer, Eric S.
Mackenzie, Gregor


Deakins, Eric
Hughes, Mark (Durham)
Mackintosh, John P.


Dempsey, James
Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen, N.)
Maclennan, Robert







McNamara, J. Kevin
Pendry, Tom
Strang, Gavin


Mahon, Simon (Bootle)
Prescott, John
Swain, Thomas


Mallalieu, J. P. W. (Huddersfield, E.)
Price, William (Rugby)
Thomson, Rt. Hn. G. (Dundee, E.)


Marks, Kenneth
Reed, D. (Sedgefield)
Tinn, James


Mellish, Rt. Hn. Robert
Rees, Merlyn (Leeds, S.)
Torney, Tom


Mendelson, John
Roberts, Rt. Hn. Goronwy (Caernarvon)
Walden, Brian (B'm'ham, All Saints)


Millan, Bruce
Rodgers, William (Stockton-on-Tees)
Walker, Harold (Doncaster)


Miller, Dr. M. S.
Roper, John
Wellbeloved, James


Molloy, William
Rose, Paul B.
Whitehead, Phillip


Morgan, Elystan (Cardiganshire)
Ross, Rt. Hn. William (Kilmarnock)
Wilson, Alexander (Hamilton)


Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw)
Silkin, Rt. Hn. John (Deptford)
Wilson, Rt. Hn. Harold (Huyton)


Morris, Rt. Hn. John (Aberavon)
Sillars, James
Wilson, William (Coventry, S.)


Murray, Ronald King
Silverman, Julius



Ogden, Eric
Skinner, Dennis
TELLERS FOR THE NOES:


O'Halloran, Michael
Small, William
Mr. John Golding and


Orme, Stanley
Spearing, Nigel
Mr. Alan Fitch.


Palmer, Arthur
Stallard, A. W.



Parry, Robert (Liverpool, Exchange)
Stoddart, David (Swindon)

Division No. 307.]
AYES
[6.13 a.m.


Adley, Robert
Gilmour, Sir John (Fife, E.)
Monro, Hector


Allason, James (Hemel Hempstead)
Goodhart, Philip
Montgomery, Fergus


Archer, Jeffrey (Louth)
Goodhew, Victor
More, Jasper


Astor, John
Gorst, John
Morgan, Geraint (Denbigh)


Atkins, Humphrey
Gower, Raymond
Morrison, Charles (Devizes)


Baker, Kenneth (St. Marylebone)
Gray, Hamish
Mudd, David


Baker, W. H. K. (Banff)
Green, Alan
Murton, Oscar


Balniel, Lord
Griffiths, Eldon (Bury St. Edmunds)
Noble, Rt. Hn. Michael


Benyon, W.
Grylls, Michael
Normanton, Tom


Berry, Hn. Anthony
Gummer, Selwyn
Oppenheim, Mrs. Sally


Biffen, John
Hall, Miss Joan (Keighley)
Orr, Capt. L. P. S.


Biggs-Davison, John
Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury)
Osborn, John


Blaker, Peter
Haselhurst, Alan
Owen, Idris (Stockport, N.)


Body, Richard
Havers, Michael
Parkinson, Cecil (Enfield, W.)


Boscawen, Robert
Hawkins, Paul
Percival, Ian


Bossom, Sir Clive
Hayhoe, Barney
Pike, Miss Mervyn


Bowden, Andrew
Heseltine, Michael
Pink, R. Bonner


Bray, Ronald
Higgins, Terence L.
Pounder, Rafton


Brewis, John
Hill, James (Southampton, Test)
Powell, Rt. Hn. J. Enoch


Bruce-Gardyne, J.
Holland, Philip
Prior, Rt. Hn. J. M. L.


Bryan, Paul
Hordern, Peter
Proudfoot, Wilfred


Buchanan-Smith, Alick(Angus, N &amp; M)
Hornby, Richard
Pym, Rt. Hn. Francis


Buck, Anthony
Hornsby-Smith, Rt. Hn. Dame Patricia
Raison, Timothy


Bullus, Sir Eric
Howe, Hn. Sir Geoffrey (Reigate)
Reed, Laurance (Bolton E.)


Butler, Adam (Bosworth)
Howell, David (Guildford)
Rees, Peter (Dover)


Campbell, Rt. Hn. G. (Moray &amp; Nairn)
Howell, Ralph (Norfolk, N.)
Renton, Rt. Hn. Sir David


Cary, Sir Robert
Hunt, John
Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon


Channon, Paul
Hutchison, Michael Clark
Ridley, Hn. Nicholas


Chapman, Sydney
Iremonger, T. L.
Roberts, Michael (Cardiff, N.)


Chataway, Rt. Hn. Christopher
James, David
Roberts, Wyn (Conway)


Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe)
Jenkin, Patrick (Woodford)
Rost, Peter


Clegg, Walter
Jessel, Toby
Russell, Sir Ronald


Cockeram, Eric
Johnson Smith, G. (E. Grinstead)
St. John-Stevas, Norman


Cooke, Robert
Jones Arthur (Northants, S.)
Scott, Nicholas


Cormack, Patrick
Jopling, Michael
Scott-Hopkins, James


Costain, A. P.
Kimball, Marcus
Sharples, Richard


Critchley, Julian
King, Tom (Bridgwater)
Shaw, Michael (Sc'b'gh &amp; Whitby)


Crouch, David
Kinsey, J. R.
Shelton, William (Clapham)


Curran, Charles
Kitson, Timothy
Simeons, Charles


d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Maj.-Gen. James
Knight, Mrs. Jill
Sinclair, Sir George


Dodds-Parker, Douglas
Knox, David
Skeet, T. H. H.


Drayson, G. B.
Lane, David
Soref, Harold


Dykes, Hugh
Langford-Holt, Sir John
Speed Keith


Eden, Sir John
Le Marchant, Spencer
Spence, John


Edwards, Nicholas (Pembroke)
Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland)
Sproat, Iain


Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carshalton)
McCrindle, R. A.
Stainton, Keith


Elliott, R. W. (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne, N.)
McLaren, Martin
Stanbrook, Ivor


Emery, Peter
McNair-Wilson, Michael
Stewart-Smith, D. G. (Belper)


Eyre, Reginald
McNair-Wilson, Patrick (NewForest)
Stuttaford, Dr. Tom


Farr, John
Maddan, Martin
Sutcliffe, John


Fell, Anthony
Madel, David
Tapsell, Peter


Fidler, Michael
Maginnis, John E.
Taylor, Edward M. (G'gow, Carhcart)


Finsberg, Geoffrey (Hampstead)
Marten, Neil
Taylor, Robert (Croydon N. W.)


Fisher, Nigel (Surbiton)
Mather, Carol
Tebbit, Norman


Fookes, Miss Janet
Mawby, Ray
Thomas, John Stradling (Monmouth)


Forteseue, Tim
Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J.
Thomas, Rt. Hn. Peter (Hendon, S.)


Fowler, Norman
Meyer, Sir Anthony
Thompson, Sir Richard (Croydon, S.)


Fox, Marcus
Mills, Peter (Torrington)
Trafford, Dr. Anthony


Fraser, Rt. Hn. Hugh(St'fford &amp; Stone)
Miscampbell, Norman
Trew, Peter


Fry, Peter
Mitchell, Lt.-Col. C. (Aberdeenshire, W)
Tugendhat, Christopher


Gardner, Edward
Mitchell, David (Basingstoke)
van Straubenzee, W. R.


Gibson-Watt, David
Moate, Roger
Vaughan, Dr. Gerard


Gilmour, Ian (Norfolk, C.)
Money, Ernie
Vickers, Dame Joan







waddington, David
Whitelaw, Rt. Hn. William
Worsley, Marcus


Walder, David (Clitheroe)
Wiggin, Jerry
Wylie, Rt. Hn. N. R.


Walters, Dennis
Wilkinson, John



Ward, Dame Irene
Wood, Rt. Hn. Richard
TELLERS FOR THE AYES:


Warren, Kenneth
Woodhouse, Hn. Christopher
Mr. Hugh Rossi and


Wells, John (Maidstone)
Woodnutt, Mark
Mr. Bernard Weatherill.




NOES


Archer, Peter (Rowley Regis)
Hannan, William (G'gow, Maryhill)
Morris, Rt. Hn. John (Aberavon)


Armstrong, Ernest
Hardy, Peter
Murray, Ronald King


Ashton, Joe
Harrison, Walter (Wakefield)
Ogden, Eric


Atkinson, Norman
Heffer, Eric S.
O'Halloran, Michael


Benn, Rt. Hn. Anthony Wedgwood
Hughes, Mark (Durham)
Orme, Stanley


Bidwell, Sydney
Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen, N.)
Palmer, Arthur


Brown, Bob (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne, W.)
Hughes, Roy (Newport)
Parry, Robert (Liverpool, Exchange)


Brown, Ronald (Shoreditch &amp; F'bury)
Janner, Greville
Penary, Tom


Buchanan, Richard (G'gow, Sp'burn)
Jay, Rt. Hn. Douglas
Prescott, John


Cant, R. B.
John, Brynmor
Price, William (Rugby)


Carter, Ray (Birmingh'm, Northfield)
Jones, Barry (Flint, E.)
Reed, D. (Sedgefield)


Clark, David (Colne Valley)
Jones, Gwynoro (Carmarthen)
Rees, Merlyn (Leeds, S.)


Cocks, Michael (Bristol, S.)
Jones, T. Alec (Rhondda, W.)
Roberts, Rt. Hn. Goronwy (Caernarvon)


Cohen, Stanley
Judd, Frank
Rodgers, William (Stockton-on-Tees)


Concannon, J. D.
Kaufman, Gerald
Roper, John


Cox, Thomas (Wandsworth, C.)
Kerr, Russell
Rose, Paul B.


Crawshaw, Richard
Kinnock, Neil
Ross, Rt. Hn. William (Kilmarnock)


Cunningham, G. (Islington, S.W.)
Lamond, James
Silkin, Rt. Hn. John (Deptford)


Dalyell, Tam
Latham, Arthur
Sillars, James


Davies, G. Elfed (Rhondda, E.)
Leadbitter, Ted
Silverman, Julius


Davis, Clinton (Hackney, C.)
Leonard, Dick
Skinner, Dennis


Deakins, Eric
Lewis, Arthur (W. Ham N.)
Small, William


Dempsey, James
Lewis, Ron (Carlisle)
Spearing, Nigel


Douglas, Dick (Stirlingshire, E.)
Lipton, Marcus
Stafford, A. W.


Duffy, A. E. P.
Lomas, Kenneth
Stoddart, David (Swindon)


Dunnett, Jack
McBride, Neil
Strang, Gavin


Eadie, Alex
McCartney, Hugh
Swain, Thomas


English, Michael
Mackenzie, Gregor
Thomson, Rt. Hn. G. (Dundee E.)


Evans, Fred
Mackintosh, John P.
Tinn, James


Fernyhough, Rt. Hn. E.
Maclennan, Robert
Torney, Tom


Fisher, Mrs. Doris (B'ham, Ladywood)
McNamara, J. Kevin
Walker, Harold (Doncaster)


Fletcher, Ted (Darlington)
Mahon, Simon (Bootle)
Wellbeloved, James


Foot, Michael
Mallalieu, J. P. W. (Huddersfield, E.)
Whitehead, Phillip


Forrester, John
Marks, Kenneth
Wilson, Alexander (Hamilton)


Fraser, John (Norwood)
Mellish, Rt. Hn. Robert
Wilson, Rt. Hn. Harold (Huyton)


Gilbert, Dr. John
Mendelson, John
Wilson, William (Coventry, S.)


Holding, John
Millan, Bruce



Grant. George (Morpeth)
Miller, Dr. M. S.
TELLERS FOR THE NOES:


Grant, John D. (Islington, E.)
Molloy, William
Mr. Alan Fitch and


Hamilton, James (Bothwell)
Morgan, Elystan (Cardiganshire)
Mr. Joseph Harper.


Hamling, William
Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw)

Division No. 308.]
AYES
[6.26 a.m.


Adley, Robert
Costain, A. P.
Gray, Hamish


Allason, James (Hemel Hempstead)
Critchley, Julian
Green, Alan


Astor, John
Crouch, David
Griffiths, Eldon (Bury St. Edmunds)


Atkins, Humphrey
Curran, Charles
Grylls, Michael


Baker, W. H. K. (Banff)
d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Maj.-Gen. James
Gummer, Selwyn


Balniel, Lord
Dodds-Parker, Douglas
Hall, Miss Joan (Keighley)


Benyon, W.
Drayson, G. B.
Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury)


Berry, Hn. Anthony
Dykes, Hugh
Hannam, John (Exeter)


Biffen, John
Eden, Sir John
Haselhurst, Alan


Biggs-Davison, John
Edwards, Nicholas (Pembroke)
Havers, Michael


Blaker, Peter
Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carshalton)
Hawkins, Paul


Boardman, Tom (Leicester, S. W.)
Emery, Peter
Hayhoe, Barney


Body, Richard
Eyre, Reginald
Heseltine, Michael


Boscawen, Robert
Farr, John
Hicks, Robert


Bossom, Sir Clive
Fell, Anthony
Hiley, Joseph


Bowden, Andrew
Fidler, Michael
Hill, James (Southampton, Test)


Bray, Ronald
Finsberg, Geoffrey (Hampstead)
Holland, Philip


Bruce-Gardyne, J.
Fisher, Nigel (Surbiton)
Hornby Richard


Buchanan-Smith, Alick (Angus, N &amp; M)
Fookes, Miss Janet
Hornsby-Smith, Rt. Hn. Dame Patricia


Buck, Antony
Fowler, Norman
Howe, Hn. Sir Geoffrey (Reigate)


Bullus, Sir Eric
Fox, Marcus
Howell, David (Guildford)


Butler, Adam (Bosworth)
Fraser, Rt. Hn. Hugh (St'fford &amp; Stone)
Howell, Ralph (Norfolk, N.)


Campbell, Rt. Hn. G. (Moray &amp; Nairn)
Fry, Peter
Hutchison, Michael Clark


Cary, Sir Robert
Gardner, Edward
Iremonger, T. L.


Channon, Paul
Gilmour, Ian (Norfolk, c.)
James, David


Chapman, Sydney
Gilmour, Sir John (Fife, E.)
Jenkin, Patrick (Woodford)


Chataway, Rt. Hn. Christopher
Goodhart, Philip
Jessel, Toby


Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe)
Goodhew, Victor
Johnson Smith, G. (E. Grinstead)


Cooke, Robert
Goret, John
Jones, Arthur (Northants, S.)


Cormack, Patrick
Gower, Raymond
Jopling, Michael







Kinsey, J. R.
Owen, Idris (Stockport, N.)
Sutcliffe, John


Knox, David
Parkinson, Cecil (Enfield, W.)
Tapsell, Peter


Lane, David
Percival, Ian
Taylor, Edward M. (G'gow, Cathcart)


Langford-Holt, Sir John
Pike, Miss Mervyn
Taylor, Robert (Croydon, N. W.)


Le Marchant, Spencer
Pink, A. Bonner
Tebbit, Norman


Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland)
Pounder, Rafton
Thomas, John Stradling (Monmouth)


McCrindle, R. A.
Powell, Rt. Hn, J. Enoch
Thomas, Rt. Hn. Peter (Hendon, S.)


McLaren, Martin
Prior, Rt. Hn. J. M. L.
Thompson, Sir Richard (Croydon, S.)


McMaster, Stanley
Proudfoot, Wilfred
Trafford, Dr. Anthony


McNair-Wilson, Michael
Pym, Rt. Hn. Francis
Trew, Peter


McNair-Wilson, Patrick (NewForest)
Raison, Timothy
Tugendhat, Christopher


Maddan, Martin
Reed, Laurance (Bolton, E.)
van Straubenzee, W. R.


Madel, David
Rees, Peter (Dover)
Vaughan, Dr. Gerard


Maginnis, John E.
Renton, Rt. Hn. Sir David
Vickers, Dame Joan


Marten, Neil
Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon
Waddington, David


Mather, Carol
Ridley, Hn. Nicholas
Walder, David (Clitheroe)


Mawby, Ray
Roberts, Michael (Cardiff, N.)
Walters, Dennis


Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J.
Roberts, Wyn (Conway)
Ward, Dame Irene


Meyer, Sir Anthony
Rossi, Hugh (Hornsey)
Warren, Kenneth


Mills, Peter (Torrington)
Rost, Peter
Weatherill, Bernard


Miscampbell, Norman
Russell, Sir Ronald
Wells, John (Maidstone)


Mitchell, Lt.-Col. C. (Aberdeenshire, W.)
St. John-Stevas, Norman
White, Roger (Gravesend)


Mitchell, David (Basingstoke)
Scott, Nicholas
Whitelaw, Rt. Hn. William


Moate, Roger
Scott-Hopkins, James
Wiggin, Jerry


Molyneaux, James
Sharples, Richard
Wilkinson, John


Money, Ernie
Shelton, William (Clapham)
Wolrige-Gordon, Patrick


Monro, Hector
Simeons, Charles
Wood, Rt. Hn. Richard


Montgomery, Fergus
Sinclair, Sir George
Woodhouse, Hn. Christopher


More, Jasper
Skeet, T. H. H.
Woodnutt, Mark


Morgan, Geraint (Denbigh)
Soref, Harold
Worsley, Marcus


Morrison, Charles (Devizes)
Speed, Keith
Wylie, Rt. Hn. N. R.


Mudd, David
Spence, John



Murton, Oscar
Sproat, Iain
TELLERS FOR THE AYES:


Normanton, Tom
Stainton, Keith
Mr. Tim Fortescue and


Oppenheim, Mrs. Sally
Stanbrook, Ivor
Mr. Walter Clegg.


Orr, Capt. L. P. S.
Stewart-Smith, D. C. (Belper)



Osborn, John
Stuttaford, Dr. Tom





NOES


Archer, Peter (Rowley Regis)
Hardy, Peter
Murray, Ronald King


Armstrong, Ernest
Harper, Joseph
Ogden, Eric


Ashton, Joe
Harrison, Walter (Wakefield)
O'Halloran, Michael


Atkinson, Norman
Heffer, Eric S.
Orme, Stanley


Benn, Rt. Hn. Anthony Wedgwood
Hughes, Mark (Durham)
Palmer, Arthur


Bidwell, Sydney
Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen, N.)
Parry, Robert (Liverpool, Exchange)


Brown, Bob (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne, W.)
Hughes, Roy (Newport)
Pendry, Tom


Brown, Ronald (Shoreditch &amp; F'bury)
Janner, Greville
Prescott, John


Buchanan, Richard (G'gow, Sp'burn)
Jay, Rt. Hn. Douglas
Price, William (Rugby)


Cant, R. B.
John, Brynmor
Reed, D. (Sedgefield)


Carter, Ray (Birmingh'm, Northfield)
Jones, Barry (Flint, E.)
Rees, Merlyn (Leeds, S.)


Clark, David (Colne Valley)
Jones, Gwynoro (Carmarthen)
Roberts, Rt. Hn. Goronwy (Caernarvon)


Cocks, Michael (Bristol, S.)
Jones, T. Alec (Rhondda, W.)
Rodgers, William (Stockton-on-Tees)


Cohen, Stanley
Judd, Frank
Roper, John


Concannon, J. D.
Kaufman, Gerald
Rose, Paul B.


Cox, Thomas (Wandsworth, C.)
Kerr, Russell
Ross, Rt. Hn. William (Kilmarnock)


Crawshaw, Richard
Kinnock, Neil
Silkin, Rt. Hn. John (Deptford)


Cunningham, G. (Islington, S. W.)
Lamond, James
Sillars, James


Dalyell, Tam
Latham, Arthur
Skinner, Dennis


Davies, G. Elfed (Rhondda, E.)
Leadbitter, Ted
Small, William


Davis, Clinton (Hackney, C.)
Leonard, Dick
Spearing, Nigel


Deakins, Eric
Lewis, Arthur (W. Ham N.)
Stallard, A. W.


Dempsey, James
Lewis, Ron (Carlisle)
Stewart, Rt. Hn. Michael (Fulham)


Douglas, Dick (Stirlingshire, E.)
Lipton, Marcus
Stoddart, David (Swindon)


Douglas-Mann, Bruce
Lomas, Kenneth
Strang, Gavin


Duffy, A. E. P.
McBride, Neil
Swain, Thomas


Dunnett, Jack
McCartney, Hugh
Thomson, Rt. Hn. G. (Dundee, E.)


Eadie, Alex
Mackenzie, Gregor
Tinn, James


English, Michael
Mackintosh, John P.
Torney, Tom


Evans, Fred
Maclennan, Robert
Walker, Harold (Doncaster)


Fernyhough, Rt. Hn. E.
McNamara, J. Kevin
Wellbeloved, James


Fisher, Mrs. Doris (B'ham, Ladywood)
Mahon, Simon (Bootle)
Whitehead, Phillip


Fitch, Alan (Wigan)
Mallalieu, J. P. W. (Huddersfied, E.)
Wilson, Alexander (Hamilton)


Fletcher, Ted (Darlington)
Marks, Kenneth
Wilson, Rt. Hn. Harold (Huyton)


Foot, Michael
Mellish, Rt. Hn. Robert
Wilson, William (Coventry, S.)


Forrester, John
Mendelson, John



Fraser, John (Norwood)
Millan, Bruce
TELLERS FOR THE NOES:


Gilbert, Dr. John
Miller, Dr. M. S.
Mr. James Hamilton and


Grant, George (Morpeth)
Molloy, William
Mr. John Golding.


Grant, John D. (Islington, E.)
Morgan, Elystan (Cardiganshire)



Hamling, William
Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw)



Hannan, William (G'gow, Maryhill)
Morris, Rt. Hn. John (Aberavon)

Division No. 309.]
AYES
[6.38 a.m.


Adley, Robert
Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury)
Pink, R. Bonner


Allason, James (Hemel Hempstead)
Hannam, John (Exeter)
Pounder, Rafton


Astor, John
Haselhurst, Alan
Powell, Rt. Hn. J. Enoch


Atkins, Humphrey
Havers, Michael
Prior, Rt. Hn. J. M. L.


Baker, Kenneth (St. Marylebone)
Hawkins, Paul
Pym, Rt. Hn. Francis


Balniel, Lord
Hayhoe, Barney
Quennell, Miss J. M.


Benyon, W.
Heseltine, Michael
Raison, Timothy


Berry, Hn. Anthony
Hicks, Robert
Rawlinson, Rt. Hn. Sir Peter


Biggs-Davison, John
Hiley, Joseph
Reed, Laurance (Bolton, E.)


Blaker, Peter
Hill, James (Southampton, Test)
Rees Peter (Dover)


Boardman, Tom (Leicester, S. W.)
Holland, Philip
Renton, Rt. Hn. Sir David


Body, Richard
Horden, Peter
Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon


Boscawen, Robert
Hornby, Richard
Ridley, Hn. Nicholas


Bossom, Sir Clive
Hornsby-Smith, Rt. Hn. Dame Patricia
Roberts, Michael (Cardiff, N.)


Bowden, Andrew
Howe, Hn. Sir Geoffrey (Reigate)
Roberts, Wyn (Conway)


Bray, Ronald
Howell, Ralph (Norfolk, N.)
Rossi, Hugh (Hornsey)


Bruce-Gardyne, J.
Hunt, John
Rost, Peter


Buchanan-Smith, Alick (Angus, N &amp; M)
Hutchison, Michael Clark
Russell, Sir Ronald


Buck, Antony
Iremonger, T. L.
St. John-Stevas, Norman


Bullus, Sir Eric
Jenkins, Patrick (Woodford)
Scott, Nicholas


Butler, Adam (Bosworth)
Jessel, Toby
Scott-Hopkins, James


Campbell, Rt. Hn. G.(Moray &amp; Nairn)
Johnson Smith, G. (E. Grinstead)
Sharples, Richard


Cary, Sir Robert
Jones, Arthur (Northants, S.)
Shelton, William (Clapham)


Channon, Paul
Jopling, Michael
Simeons, Charles


Chapman, Sydney
Kellett, Mrs. Elaine
Sinclair, Sir George


Chataway, Rt. Hn. Christopher
Kinsey, J. R.
Street, T. H. H.


Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe)
Kitson, Timothy
Soref, Harold


Clegg, Walter
Knight, Mrs. Jill
Spence, John


Cooke, Robert
Knox, David
Sproat, Iain


Cormack, Patrick
Lane, David
Stainton, Keith


Costain, A. P.
Langford-Holt, Sir John
Stanbrook, Ivor


Critchley, Julian
Le Marchant, Spencer
Stewart-Smith, D. G. (Belper)


Crouch, David
Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland)
Stuttaford, Dr. Tom


Curran, Charles
McCrindle, R. A.
Sutcliffe, John


d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Maj.-Gen. James
McLaren, Martin
Tapsell, Peter


Dodds-Parker, Douglas
McMaster, Stanley
Taylor, Edward M. (G'gow, Cathcart)


Drayson, G. B.
McNair-Wilson, Michael
Taylor, Robert (Croydon, N. W.)


Dykes, Hugh
McNair-Wilson, Patrick (NewForest)
Tebbit Norman


Eden, Sir John
Madel, David
Thomas, John Stradling (Monmouth)


Edwards, Nicholas (Pembroke)
Maginnin, John E.
Thomas, Rt. Hn. Peter (Hendon, S.)


Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carshalton)
Marten, Neil
Thompson, Sir Richard (Croydon, S.)


Emery, Peter
Mather, Carol
Trafford, Dr Anthony


Farr, John
Mawby, Ray
Trew, Peter


Fell, Anthony
Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J.
Tugendhat, Christopher


Fenner, Mrs. Peggy
Meyer, Sir Anthony
van Straubenzee, W R.


Fidler, Michael
Mills, Peter (Torrington)
Vickers, Dame Joan


Finsberg, Geoffrey (Hampstead)
Miscampbell, Norman
Waddington, David


Fisher, Nigel (Surbiton)
Mitchell, Lt.-Col. C (Aberdeenshire, W)
Walder, David (Clitheroe)


Fookes, Miss Janet
Mitchell, David (Basingstoke)
Wall, Patrick


Fortescue, Tim
Moate, Roger
Walters, Dennis


Fowler, Norman
Molyneaux, James
Warren, Kenneth


Fox, Marcus
Money, Ernie
Weatherill, Bernard


Fry, Peter
Montgomery, Fergus
Wells, John (Maidstone)


Gardner, Edward
More, Jasper
White, Roger (Gravesend)


Gibson-Watt, David
Morgan, Geraint (Denbigh)
Whitelaw, Rt. Hn. William


Gilmour, Ian (Norfolk, C.)
Morrison, Charles (Devizes)
Wiggin, Jerry


Gilmour, Sir John (Fife, E.)
Mudd, David
Wilkinson, John


Goodhart, Philip
Murton, Oscar
Wolrige-Gordon, Patrick


Goodhew, Victor
Noble, Rt. Hn. Michael
Wood, Rt. Hn. Richard


Gorst, John
Normanton, Tom
Woodhouse, Hn. Christopher


Gower, Raymond
Oppenheim, Mrs. Sally
woodnutt, Mark


Gray, Hamish
Orr, Capt. L. P. S.
Worsley, Marcus


Green, Alan
Osborn, John



Griffiths, Eldon (Bury St. Edmunds)
Owen, Idris (Stockport, N.)
TELLERS FOR THE AYES:


Grylls, Michael
Parkinson, Cecil (Enfield, W.)
Mr. Hector Munroe and


Gummer, Selwyn
Percival, Ian
Mr. Keith Speed.


Hall, Miss Joan (Keighley)
Pike, Miss Mervyn





NOES


Archer, Peter (Rowley Regis)
Clark, David (Colne Valley)
Dempsey, James


Armstrong, Ernest
Cocks, Michael (Bristol, S.)
Douglas, Dick (Stirlingshire, E.)


Ashton, Joe
Cohen, Stanley
Douglas-Mann, Bruce


Atkinson, Norman
Concannon, J. D.
Duffy, A. E. P.


Benn, Rt. Hn. Anthony Wedgwood
Cox, Thomas (Wandsworth, C.)
Dunnett, Jack


Bidwell, Sydney
Crawshaw, Richard
Eadie, Alex


Brown, Bob (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne, W.)
Cunningham, G. (Islington, S. W.)
English, Michael


Brown, Ronald (Shoreditch &amp; F'bury)
Dalyell, Tam
Evans, Fred


Buchanan, Richard (G'gow, Sp'burn)
Davies, G. Elfed (Rhondda, E.)
Fernyhough, Rt. Hn. E.


Cant, R. B.
Davis, Clinton (Hackney, C.)
Fisher, Mrs. Doris (B'ham, Ladywood)


Carter, Ray (Birmingh'm, Northfield)
Deakins, Eric
Fitch, Alan (Wigan)







Fletcher, Ted (Darlington)
Leonard, Dick
Reed, D. (Sedgefield)


Foot, Michael
Lewis, Arthur (W. Ham N.)
Rees, Merlyn (Leeds, S.)


Forrester, John
Lewis, Bon (Carlisle)
Roberts, Rt. Hn. Goronwy (Caernarvon)


Fraser, John (Norwood)
Lipton, Marcus
Roper, John


Gilbert, Dr. John
Lomas, Kenneth
Rose, Paul B.


Golding, John
McBride, Neil
Ross, Rt. Hn. William (Kilmarnock)


Grant, George (Morpeth)
McCartney, Hugh
Silkin, Rt. Hn. John (Deptford)


Grant, John D. (Islington, E.)
Mackenzie, Gregor
Sillars, James


Hamilton, James (Bothwell)
Maclennan, Robert.
Skinner, Dennis


Hannan, William (G'gow, Maryhill)
McNamara, J. Kevin
Small, William


Hardy, Peter
Mahon, Simon (Bootle)
Spearing Nigel


Harper, Joseph
Mallalieu, J. P. W. (Huddersfield, E.)
Stallard, A. W.


Harrison, Walter (Wakefield)
Mellish, Rt. Hn. Robert
Stewart, Rt. Hn. Michael (Fulham)


Heffer, Eric S.
Mendelson, John
Stoddart, David (Swindon)


Hughes, Mark (Durham)
Millan, Bruce
Strang, Gavin


Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen, N.)
Miller, Dr. M. S.
Swain, Thomas


Hughes, Roy (Newport)
Molloy, William
Thomson, Rt. Hn. G. (Dundee, E.)


Janner, Greville
Morgan, Elystan (Cardiganshire)
Tinn, James


Jay, Rt. Hn. Douglas
Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw)
Walker, Harold (Doncaster)


John, Brynmor
Morris, Rt. Hn. John (Aberavon)
Wellbeloved, James


Jones, Barry (Flint E.)
Murray, Ronald King
Whitehead, Phillip


Jones, Gwynoro (Carmarthen)
Ogden, Eric
Wilson, Alexander (Hamilton)


Jones, T. Alec (Rhondda, W.)
O'Halloran, Michael
Wilson, Rt. Hn. Harold (Huyton)


Judd, Frank
O'Malley, Brian
Wilson, William (Coventry, S.)


Kaufman, Gerald
Orme, Stanley



Kerr, Russell
Palmer Arthur
TELLERS FOR THE NOES:


Kinnock, Neil
Parry, Robert (Liverpool, Exchange)
Mr. Kenneth Marks and


Lamond, James
Pendry, Tom
Mr. William Harming.


Latham, Arthur
Prescott, John



Leadbitter, Ted
Price, William (Rugby)

Division No. 310.]
AYES
[6.50 a.m.


Adley, Robert
Edwards, Nicholas (Pembroke)
Jessel, Toby


Allason, James (Hemel Hempstead)
Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carhalton)
Johnson Smith, G. (E. Grinstead)


Amery, Rt. Hn. Julian
Emery, Peter
Jones, Arthur (Northants, S.)


Astor, John
Farr, John
Jopling, Michael


Atkins, Humphrey
Fell, Anthony
Joseph, Rt. Hn. Sir Keith


Awdry, Daniel
Fenner, Mrs. Peggy
Kellett, Mrs. Elaine


Baker, Kenneth (St. Marylebone)
Fidler, Michael
Kershaw, Arithony


Balniel, Lord
Finsberg, Geoffrey (Hampstead)
Kinsey, J. R.


Bennett, Sir Frederic (Torquay)
Fisher, Nigel (Surbiton)
Kitson, Timothy


Bennett, Dr. Reginald (Gosport)
Fookes, Miss Janet
Knight, Mrs. Jill


Benyon, W.
Forestcue, Tim
Knox, David


Berry, Hn. Anthony
Fowler, Norman
Lane, David


Biffen, John
Fox, Marcus
Langford-Holt, Sir John


Biggs-Davison, John
Fraser, Rt. Hn. Hugh (St'fford &amp; Stone)
Legge-Bourke, Sir Harry


Blaker, Peter
Fry, Peter
Le Marchant, Spencer


Boardman, Tom (Leicester, S. W.)
Gibson-Watt, David
Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland)


Body, Richard
Gilmour, Ian (Norfolk, C.)
Longden, Gilbert


Boscawen, Robert
Gilmour, Sir John (Fife, E.)
McCrindle, R. A.


Bossom, Sir Clive
Goodhart, Philip
McLaren, Martin


Bowden, Andrew
Goodhew, Victor
McMaster, Stanley


Bray, Ronald
Gorst, John
McNair-Wilson, Michael


Bruce-Gardyne, J.
Gower, Raymond
McNair-Wilson, Patrick (NewForest)


Buchanan-Smith, Alick (Angus, N &amp; M)
Gray, Hamish
Madel, David


Buck, Antony
Green, Alan
Maginnis, John E.


Bullus, Sir Eric
Grieve, Percy
Marten, Neil


Burden, F, A.
Griffiths, Eldon (Bury St. Edmunds)
Mather, Carol


Butler, Adam (Bosworth)
GryllS, Michael
Mawby, Ray


Campbell, Rt. Hn. G. (Moray &amp; Nairn)
Gummer, Selwyn
Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J.


Cary, Sir Robert
Hall, Miss Joan (Keighley)
Meyer, Sir Anthony


Channon, Paul
Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury)
Mills, Peter (Torrington)


Chapman, Sydney
Hannam, John (Exeter)
Miscampbell, Norman


Chataway, Rt. Hn. Christopher
Haselhurst, Alan
Mitchell, Lt.-Col. C. (Aberdeenshire, W)


Churchill, W. S.
Havers, Michael
Mitchell, David (Basingstoke)


Clark, William (Surrey, E.)
Hayhoe, Barney
Moate, Roger


Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe)
Heseltine, Michael
Molyneaux, James


Clegg, Walter
Hicks, Robert
Money, Ernie


Cockeram, Eric
Hiley, Joseph
Monks, Mrs. Connie


Cooke, Robert
Hill, John E. B. (Norfolk, S.)
Monro, Hector


Cordle, John
Hill, James (Southampton, Test)
Montgomery, Fergus


Cormack, Patrick
Holland, Philip
More, Jasper


Costain, A. P.
Hordern, Peter
Morgan, Geraint (Denbigh)


Crouch, David
Hornby, Richard
Morrison, Charles (Devizes)


Curran, Charles
Hornsby-Smith, Rt. Hn. Dame Patricia
Mudd, David


Davies, Rt. Hn. John (Knutsford)
Howe, Hn. Sir Geoffrey (Reigate)
Murton, Oscar


d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Maj.-Gen. James
Howell, Ralph (Norfolk N.)
Noble, Rt. Hn. Michael


Dodds-Parker, Douglas
Hunt, John
Normanton, Tom


Douglas-Home, Rt. Hn. Sir Alec
Hutchison, Michael Clark
Oppenheim, Mrs. Sally


Drayson, G. B.
Iremonger, T. L.
Orr, Capt, L. P. S.


Dykes, Hugh
James, David
Osborn, John


Eden, Sir John
Jenkin, Patrick (Woodford)
Owen, Idris (Stockport, N.)







Parkinson, Cecil (Enfield, W.)
Shelton, William (Clapham)
Tugendhat, Christopher


Percival, Ian
Simeons, Charles
van Straubenzee, W. R.


Peyton, Rt. Hn. John
Sinclair, Sir George
Vickers, Dame Joan


Pike, Miss Mervyn
Skeet, T. H. H.
Waddington, David


Pink, R. Bonner
Smith, Dudley (W'wick &amp; L'mington)
Walder, David (Clitheroe)


Pounder, Rafton
Soref, Harold
Wall, Patrick


Prior, Rt. Hn. J. M. L.
Speed, Keith
Walters, Dennis


Pym, Rt. Hn. Francis
Spence, John
Warren, Kenneth


Quennell, Miss J. M.
Sproat, Iain
Weatherill, Bernard


Raison, Timothy
Stainton, Keith
Wells, John (Maidstone)


Ramsden, Rt. Hn. James
Stanbrook, Ivor
White, Roger (Gravesend)


Rawlinson, Rt. Hn. Sir Peter
Stewart-Smith, D. G. (Belper)
Whitelaw, Rt. Hn. William


Reed, Laurance (Bolton, E.)
Stuttaford, Dr. Tom
Wiggin, Jerry


Rees, Peter (Dover)
Sutcliffe, John
Wilkinson, John


Renton, Rt. Hn, Sir David
Tapsell, Peter
Wolrige-Gordon, Patrick


Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon
Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne)
Wood, Rt. Hn. Richard


Ridley, Hn. Nicholas
Taylor, Edward M. (G'gow, Cathcart)
Woodhouse, Hn. Christopher


Roberts, Michael (Cardiff, N.)
Taylor, Robert (Croydon, N. W.)
Woodnutt, Mark


Roberts, Wyn (Conway)
Tebbit, Norman
Worsley, Marcus


Rost, Peter
Thomas, John Stradling (Monmouth)



Russell, Sir Ronald
Thomas, Rt. Hn. Peter (Hendon, S.)
TELLERS FOR THE AYES:


Scott, Nicholas
Thompson, Sir Richard (Croydon, S.)
Mr. Hugh Rossi and


Scott-Hopkins, James
Trafford, Dr. Anthony
Mr. Paul Hawkins.


Sharples, Richard
Trew, Peter



NOES


Archer, Peter (Rowley Regis)
Grant, John D. (Islington, E.)
Molloy, William


Armstrong, Ernest
Hamilton, James (Bothwell)
Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw)


Ashton, Joe
Hannan, William (G'gow, Maryhill)
Murray, Ronald King


Atkinson, Norman
Hardy, Peter
Ogden, Erie


Benn, Rt. Hn. Anthony Wedgwood
Harper, Joseph
O'Halloran, Michael


Bidwell, Sydney
Harrison, Walter (Wakefield)
Orme, Stanley


Brown, Bob (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne, W.)
Heffer, Eric S.
Palmer, Arthur


Brown, Ronald(Shoreditch &amp; F'bury)
Hughes, Mark (Durham)
Parry, Robert (Liverpool, Exchange)


Buchanan, Richard (G'gow, Sp'burn)
Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen, N.)
Pendry, Tom


Cant, R. B.
Hughes, Roy (Newport)
Prescott, John


Carter, Ray (Birmingham, Northfield)
Janner, Greville
Price, William (Rugby)


Clark, David (Colne Valley)
Jay, Rt. Hn. Douglas
Reed, D. (Sedgefield)


Cocks, Michael (Bristol, S.)
John, Brynmor
Rees, Merlyn (Lees, S.)


Cohen, Stanley
Jones, Barry (Flint, E.)
Roberts, Rt. Hn. Goronwy (Caernarvon)


Concannon, J. D.
Jones, Gwynoro (Carmarthen)
Rodgers, William (Stockton-on-Tees)


Cox, Thomas (Wandsworth, C.)
Jones, T. Alec (Rhondda, W.)
Roper, John


Crawshaw, Richard
Judd, Frank
Rose, Paul B.


Cunningham, C. (Islington, S. W.)
Kaufman, Gerald
Ross, Rt. Hn. William (Kilmarnock)


Dalyell, Tam
Kerr, Russell
Silkin, Rt. Hn. John (Deptford)


Davies, G. Elfed (Rhondda, E.)
Kinnock, Neil
Sillars, James


Davis, Clinton (Hackney, C.)
Lamond, James
Skinner, Dennis


Deakins, Eric
Latham, Arthur
Small, William


Dempsey, James
Leadbitter, Ted
Spearing, Nigel


Douglas, Dick (Stirlingshire, E.)
Leonard, Dick
Stallard, A. W.


Douglas-Mann. Bruce
Lewis, Arthur (W. Ham N.)
Stoddart, David (Swindon)


Duffy, A. E. P.
Lewis, Ron (Carlisle)
Strang, Gavin


Dunnett, Jack
Lipton, Marcus
Swain, Thomas


Eadie, Alex
Lomas, Kenneth
Thomson, Rt. Hn. G. (Dundee, E.)


English, Michael
McBride, Neil
Tinn, James


Evans, Fred
McCartney, Hugh
Torney, Tom


Fernyhough, Rt. Hn. E.
Mackenzie, Gregor
Walker, Harold (Doncaster)


Fisher, Mrs. Doris (B'ham, Ladywood)
Mackintosh, John P.
Wellbeloved, James


Fitch, Alan (Wigan)
Maclennan, Robert
Whitehead, Phillip


Fletcher, Ted (Darlington)
McNamara, J. Kevin
Wilson, Alexander (Hamilton)


Foot, Michael
Mahon, Simon (Bootle)
Wilson, Rt. Hn. Harold (Huyton)


Forrester, John
Mallalieu, J. P. W. (Huddersfield, E.)
Wilson, William (Coventry, S.)


Fraser, John (Norwood)
Mellish, Rt. Hn. Robert



Gilbert, Dr. John
Mendelson, John
TELLERS FOR THE NOES:


Golding, John
Millan, Bruce
Mr. Kenneth Marks and


Grant, George (Morpeth)
Miller, Dr. M. S.
Mr. William Hamling.

Division No. 311.]
AYES
[7.02 p.m.


Adley, Robert
Biffen, John
Bryan, Paul


Alison, Michael (Barkston Ash)
Biggs-Davison, John
Buck, Antony


Allason, James (Hemel Hempstead)
Blaker, Peter
Bullus Sir Eric


Amery, Rt. Hn. Julian
Boardman, Tom (Leicester, S. W.)
Burden, F. A.


Astor, John
Body, Richard
Butler, Adam (Bosworth)


Atkins, Humphrey
Boscawen, Robert
Campbell, Rt. Hn. G. (Moray &amp; Nairn)


Awdry, Daniel
Bossom, Sir clive
Cary, Sir Robert


Batsford, Brian
Bowden, Andrew
Channon, Paul


Bennett, Sir Frederic (Torquay)
Braine, Bernard
Chapman, Sydney


Bennett, Dr. Reginald (Gosport)
Bray, Ronald
Chataway, Rt. Hn. Christopher


Benyon, W.
Brown, Sir Edward (Bath)
Chichester-Clark, R.


Berry, Hn. Anthony
Bruce-Gardyne, J.
Churchill, W. S.







Clark, William (Surrey, E.)
James, David
Reed, Laurance (Bolton, E.)


Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe)
Jenkin, Patrick (Woodford)
Rees, Peter (Dover)


Cockeram, Eric
Jessel, Toby
Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon


Cooke, Robert
Johnson Smith, G. (E. Grinstead)
Ridley, Hn. Nicholas


Cordle, John
Jopling, Michael
Ridsdale, Julian


Cormack, Patrick
Joseph, Rt. Hn. Sir Keith
Roberts, Michael (Cardiff, N.)


Costain, A. P.
Kellett, Mrs. Elaine
Roberts, Wyn (Conway)


Crouch, David
Kershaw, Anthony
Rossi, Hugh (Hornsey)


Davies, Rt. Hn. John (Knutsford)
King, Evelyn (Dorset, S.)
Rost, Peter


d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Maj.-Gen. James
Kinsey, J. R.
Russell, Sir Ronald


Dodds-Parker, Douglas
Kirk, Peter
St. John-Stevas, Norman


Douglas-Home, Rt. Hn. Sir Alec
Knight, Mrs. Jill
Scott, Nicholas


Drayson, G. B.
Knox, David
Scott-Hopkins, James


du Cann, Rt. Hn. Edward
Lane, David
Sharples, Richard


Dykes, Hugh
Langford-Holt, Sir John
Shelton, William (Clapham)


Eden, Sir John
Legge-Bourke, Sir Harry
Simeons, Charles


Edwards, Nicholas (Pembroke)
Le Marchant, Spencer
Sinclair, Sir George


Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carshalton)
Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland)
Skeet, T. H. H.


Emery, Peter
Lloyd, Ian (P'tsm'th, Langstone)
Smith, Dudley (W'wick &amp; L'mington)


Farr, John
Longden, Gilbert
Soref, Harold


Fell, Anthony
Loveridge, John
Speed, Keith


Fenner, Mrs. Peggy
McCrindle, R. A.
Spence, John


Fidler, Michael
McLaren, Martin
Sproat, Iain


Finsberg, Geoffrey (Hampstead)
McMaster, Stanley
Stainton, Keith


Fisher, Nigel (Surbiton)
McNair-Wilson, Michael
Stanbrook, Ivor


Fletcher-Cooke, Charles
McNair-Wilson, Patrick
Stewart-Smith, D. G. (Belper)


Fortescue, Tim
Mad el, David
Stokes, John


Foster, Sir John
Maginnis, John E.
Stuttaford, Dr. Tom


Fowler, Norman
Marten, Neil
Sutcliffe, John


Fox, Marcus
Mather, Carol
Tapsell, Peter


Fraser, Rt. Hn. Hugh (St'fford &amp; Stone)
Mawby, Ray
Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne)


Fry, Peter
Maxwell-Hyslop, R.J.
Taylor, Edward M.(G'gow, Cathcart)


Gilmour, Ian (Norfolk, C.)
Meyer, Sir Anthony
Taylor, Frank (Moss Side)


Gilmour, Sir John (Fife, E.)
Mills, Peter (Torrington)
Taylor, Robert (Croydon, N.W.)


Glyn, Dr. Alan
Mills, Stratton (Belfast, N.)
Tebbit, Norman


Godber, Rt. Hn. J. B.
Miscampbell, Norman
Temple, John M.


Goodhart, Philip
Mitchell, Lt.-col. C. (Aberdeenshire, W)
Thatcher, Rt. Hn. Mrs. Margaret


Goodhew, Victor
Mitchell, David (Basingstoke)
Thomas, John Stradling (Monmouth)


Gorst, John
Moate, Roger
Thomas, Rt. Hn. Peter (Hendon, S.)


Gower, Raymond
Molyneaux, James
Thompson, Sir Richard (Croydon, S.)


Green, Alan
Money, Ernie
Tilney, John


Grieve, Percy
Monks, Mrs. Connie
Trafford, Dr. Anthony


Grffiths, Eldon (Bury St. Edmunds)
Monro, Hector
Trew, Peter


Grylls, Michael
Montgomery, Fergus
Tugendhat, Christopher


Gummer, Selwyn
Morgan, Geraint (Denbigh)
van Straubenzee, W. R.


Gurden, Harold
Morgan-Giles, Rear-Adm.
Vickers, Dame Joan


Hall, Miss Joan (Keighley)
Morrison, Charles (Devizes)
Waddington, David


Hall, John (Wycombe)
Mudd, David
Walder, David (Clitheroe)


Hall-Davis, A. G. F.
Murton, Oscar
Walker, Rt. Hn. Peter (Worcester)


Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury)
Neave, Airey
Wall, Patrick


Hannam, John (Exeter)
Normanton, Tom
Walters, Dennis


Harrison, Col. Sir Harwood (Eye)
Nott, John
Warren, Kenneth


Haselhurst, Alan
Oppenheim, Mrs. Sally
Weatherill, Bernard


Hastings, Stephen
Orr, Capt. L. P. S.
Wells, John (Maidstone)


Havers, Michael
Osbom, John
White, Roger (Gravesend)


Hawkins, Paul
Owen, Idris (Stockport, N.)
Whitelaw, Rt. Hn. William


Heseltine, Michael
Page, John (Harrow, W.)
Wiggin, Jerry


Hicks, Robert
Parkinson, Cecil (Enfield, W.)
Wilkinson, John


Hiley, Joseph
Peroival, Ian
Wolrige-Gordon, Patrick


Hill. John E. B. (Norfolk, S.)
Peyton, Rt. Hn. John
Wood, Rt. Hn. Richard


Hill, James (Southampton, Test)
Pike, Miss Mervyn
Woodhouse, Hn. Christopher


Holland, Philip
Pink, R. Bonner
Woodnutt, Mark


Hordern, Peter
Pounder, Rafton
Worsley, Marcus


Hornby, Richard
Prior, Rt. Hn. J. M. L.



Hornsby-Smith, Rt. Hn. Dame Patricia
Pym, Rt. Hn. Francis
TELLERS FOR THE AYES:


Howell, Ralph (Norfolk, N.)
Quennell, Miss J. M.
 Mr. Jasper More and


Hunt, John
Raison, Timothy
Mr. Walter Clegg.


Hutchison, Michael Clark
Rawlinson, Rt. Hn. Sir Peter





NOES


Archer, Peter (Rowley Regis)
Cohen, Stanley
Duffy, A.E. P.


Armstrong, Ernest
Concannon, J. D.
Dunnett, Jack


Atkinson, Norman
Cox, Thomas (Wandsworth, C.)
Eadie, Alex


Benn, Rt. Hn. Anthony Wedgwood
Crawshaw, Richard
English Michael


Bidwell, Sydney
Cunningham, G. (Islington, S.W.)
Evans, Fred


Brown, Bob (N'c'tle-upon-Tyns, w.)
Dalyell, Tam
Fernyhough, Rt. Hn. E.


Brown, Ronald (Shoreditch &amp; F'bury)
Davies, G. Etfed (Rhondda, E.)
Fisher, Mrs. Doris (B'ham, Ladywood)


Buchanan, Richard (G'gow, Sp'burn)
Davis, Clinton (Hackney, C.)
Fit6ch, Alan (Wigan)


Cant, R. B.
Deakins, Eric
Fletcher, Ted (Darlington)]


Carter, Ray (Birmingh'm, Northfield)
Dempsey, James
Foley, Maurioe


Clark, David (Colne Valley)
Douglas, Dick (Stirlingshire, E.)
Foot, Michael


Cocks, Michael (Bristol, S.)
Douglas-Mann, Bruce
Forrester, John







Fraser, John (Norwood)
Lewis, Ron (Carlisle)
Rees, Merlyn (Leeds, S.)


Gilbert, Dr. John
Lipton, Marcus
Roberts, Rt. Hn. Goronwy (Caernarvon)


Golding, John
McBride, Nell
Rodgers, William (Stockton-on-Tees)


Grant, George (Morpeth)
McCartney, Hugh
Roper, John


Grant, John D. (Islington, E.)
Mackenzie, Gregor
Rose, Paul B.


Hamilton, James (Bothwell)
Mackintosh, John P.
Ross, Rt. Hn. William (Kilmarnock)


Hannan, William (G'gow, Maryhill
Machennan, Robert
Silkin, Rt. Hn. John (Deptford)


Hardy, Peter
McNamara, J. Kevin
Sillars, James


Harper, Joseph
Marion, Simon (Bootle)
Skinner, Dennis


Harrison, Walter (Wakefield)
Matlalieu, J. P. W. (Huddersfield, E.)
Small, William


Heffer, Eric 8.
Mellish, Rt. Hn. Robert
Spearing, Nigel


Hughes, Mark (Durham)
Mendelson, John
Stallard, A. W.


Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen, N.)
Mikardo, Ian
Strang, Gavin


Hughes, Roy (Newport)
Millan, Bruce
Swain, Thomas


Janner, Greville
Miller, Dr. M. S.
Thomson, Rt. Hn. G. (Dundee, E.)


Jay, Rt. Hn. Douglas
Molloy, William
Tinn, James


John, Brynmor
Morgan, Elystan (Cardiganshire)
Torney, Tom


Jones, Barry (Flint, E.)
Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw)
Walker, Harold (Doncaster)


Jones, Gwynoro (Carmarthen)
Morris, Rt. Hn. John (Aberavon)
Wellbeloved, James


Jones, T. Alec (Rhondda, W.)
Murray, Ronald King
Whitehead, Phillip


Judd, Frank
Ogden, Eric
Wilson, Alexander (Hamilton)


Kaufman, Gerald
O'Halloran, Michael
Wilson, Rt. Hn. Harold (Huyton)


Kerr, Russell
Orme, Stanley
Wilson, William (Coventry, S.)


Kinnock, Neil
Palmer, Arthur



Lamond, James
Parry, Robert (Liverpool, Exchange)
TELLERS FOR THE NOES:


Latham, Arthur
Pendry, Tom
Mr. Kenneth Marks and


Leadbitter, Ted
Presoott, John
Mr. William Hamling.


Leonard, Dick
Price, William (Rugby)



Lewis, Arthur (W. Ham, N.)
Reed, D. (Sedgefield)

Division No. 312.]
AYES
[7.15 a.m.


Adley, Robert
Dodds-Parker, Douglas
Hill, John E. B. (Norfolk, S.)


Alison, Michael (Barkston Ash)
Douglas-Home, Rt. Hn. Sir Alec
Hill, James (Southampton, Test)


Allason, James (Hemel Hemptead)
Drayson, G. B.
Holland, Philip


Amery, Rt. Hn. Julian
du Cann, Rt. Hn. Edward
Hordern, Peter


Astor, John
Dykes, Hugh
Hornby, Richard


Atkins, Humphrey
Eden, Sir John
Hornsby-Smith, Rt. Hn. Dame Patricia


Awdry, Daniel
Edwards, Nicholas (Pembroke)
Howell, Ralph (Norfolk, N.)


Baker, Kenneth (St. Marylebone)
Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carshalton)
Hunt, John


Batsford, Brian
Emery, Peter
Hutchison, Michael Clark


Beamish, Col. Sir Tufton
Farr, John
Iremonger, T. L.


Bennett, Sir Frederic (Torquay)
Fell, Anthony
James, David


Bennett, Dr. Reginald (Gosport)
Fenner, Mrs. Peggy
Jenkin, Patrick (Woodford)


Benyon, W.
Fidler, Michael
Jessel, Toby


Berry, Hn. Anthony
Finsberg, Geoffrey (Hampstead)
Johnson Smith, G. (E. Grinstead)


Biffen, John
Fisher, Nigel (Surbiton)
Jones, Arthur (Northants, S.)


Biggs-Davison, John
Fletcher-cooke, Charles
Jopling, Michael


Blaker, Peter
Fortescue, Tim
Joseph, Rt. Hn. Sir Keith


Body, Richard
Foster, Sir John
Kellett, Mrs. Elaine


Boscawen, Robert
Fowler, Norman
Kershaw, Anthony


Bowden, Andrew
Fox, Marcus
King, Evelyn (Dorset, S.)


Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hn. John
Fraser, Rt. Hn. Hugh (St'fford &amp; Stone)
Kinsey, J. R.


Bray, Ronald
Fry, Peter
Kirk, Peter


Brinton, Sir Tatton
Gibson-Watt, David
Kitson, Timothy


Brown, Sir Edward (Bath)
Gilmour, Ian (Norfolk, c.)
Knight, Mrs. Jill


Bruce-Cardyne, J.
Gilmour, Sir John (Fife, E.)
Knox, David,


Bryan, Paul
Glyn, Dr. Alan
Lane, David


Buchanan-Smith, Alick (Angus, N&amp;M)
Godber, Rt. Hn. J. B.
Langford-Holt, Sir John


Buck, Antony
Goodhart, Philip
Legge, Bourke, Sir Harry


Bullus, Sir Eric
Gorst, John
Le Marchant, Spencer


Burden, F. A.
Gower, Raymond
Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland)


Butler, Adam (Bosworth)
Gray, Hamish
Lloyd, Ian (P'tsm'th, Langstone)


Campbell, Rt. Hn. G.(Moray&amp;Nairn)
Green, Alan
Longden, Gilbert


Cary, Sir Robert
Grieve, Percy
Loveridge, John


Channon, Paul
Griffiths, Eldon (Bury St. Edmunds)
McCrindle, R. A.


Chapman, Sydney
Grylls, Michael
McLaren, Martin


Chataway, Rt. Hn. Christopher
Gummer, Selwyn
McMaster, Stanley


Chichester-Clark, R.
Gurden, Harold
Macmillan, Maurice (Farnham)


Churchill, W. S.
Hall, Miss Joan (Keighley)
McNair-Wilson, Michael


Clark, William (Surrey, E.)
Han, John (Wycombe)
McNair-Wilson, Patrick (New Forest)


Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe)
Hall-Davis, A. G. F.
Madel, David


Clegg, Walter
Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury)
Maginnis, John E.


Cockeram, Eric
Hannam, John (Exeter)
Marten, Neil


Cooke, Robert
Harrison, Col. Sir Harwood (Eye)
Mather, Carol



Haselhurst, Alan
Maude, Angus


Cordle, John
Hastings, Stephen
Mawby, Ray


Cormack, Patrick
Havers, Michael
Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J.


Costain, A. P.
Hawkins, Paul
Meyer, Sir Anthony


Critchley, Julian
Hayhoe, Barney
Mills, Peter (Torrington)


Crouch, David
Heseltine, Michael
Miscampbell, Norman


Davies, Rt. Hn. John (Knutsford)
Hicks, Robert
Mitchell, Lt. -Col. C.(Aberdenshire, W)


d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Sir Henry
Higgins, Terence L.
Mitchell, David (Basingstoke)


d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Maj.-Gen. James
Hiley, Joseph
Moate, Roger







Molyneaux, James
Ridley, Hn. Nicholas
Thomas, John Stradling (Monmouth)


Money, Ernie
Ridsdale, Julian
Thomas, Rt. Hn. Peter (Hendon, S.)


Monks, Mrs. Connie
Roberts, Michael (Cardiff, N.)
Thompson, Sir Richard (Croydon, S.)


Monro, Hector
Roberts, Wyn (Conway)
Tilney, John


Montgomery, Fergus
Rossi, Hugh (Hornsey)
Trafford, Dr. Anthony


Morgan, Geraint (Denbigh)
Rost, Peter
Trew, Peter


Morgan-Giles, Rear-Adm.
Royle, Anthony
Tugendhat, Christopher


Morrison, Charles (Devizes)
Russell, Sir Ronald
Turton, Rt. Hn. R. H.


Mudd, David
St. John-Stevas, Norman
van Straubenzee, W. R.


Murton, Oscar
Scott, Nicholas
Vickers, Dame Joan


Neave, Airey
Scott-Hopkins, James
Waddington, David


Noble, Rt. Hn. Michael
Sharples, Richard
Walder, David (Clitheroe)


Normanton, Tom
Shelton, William (Clapham)
Walker, Rt. Hn. Peter (Worcester)


Nott, John
Simeons, Charles
Wall, Patrick


Oppenheim, Mrs. Sally
Sinclair, Sir George
Walters, Dennis


Orr, Capt. L. P. S.
Skeet, T. H. H.
Ward, Dame Irene


Osborn, John
Smith, Dudley (W'wick &amp; L'mington)
Warren, Kenneth


Owen, Idris (Stockport, N.)
Soref, Harold
Weatherill, Bernard


Page, John (Harrow, W.)
Spence, John
Wells, John (Maidstone)


Parkinson, Cecil (Enfield, W.)
Sproat, Iain
White, Roger (Cravesend)


Percival, Ian
Stainton, Keith
Whitelaw, Rt. Hn. William


Peyton, Rt. Hn, John
Stanbrook, Ivor
Wiggin, Jerry


Pike, Miss Mervyn
Stewart-Smith, D. G. (Belper)
Wlkinson, John


Pink, R. Bonner
Stokes, John
Wolrige-Gordon, Patrick


Pounder, Rafton
Stuttaford, Dr Tom
Wood, Rt. Hn. Richard G.



Sutcliffe, John
Woodhouse, Hn. Christopher


Prior, Rt. Hn. J. M. L.
Tapsell, Peter
Woodnutt, Mark


Pym, Rt. Hn. Francis
Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne)
Worsley, Marcus


Quennell, Miss J. M.
Taylor, Edward M.(G'gow, Cathcart)
Younger, Hn. George


Raison, Timothy
Taylor, Frank (Moss Side)



Rawlinson, Rt. Hn. Sir Peter
Taylor, Robert (Croydon, N.W.)
TELLERS FOR THE AYES:


Reed, Laurance (Bolton, E.)
Tebbit, Norman
Mr. Victor Goodhew and


Rees, Peter (Dover)
Temple, John M.
Mr. Keith Speed.


Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon
Thatcher, Rt. Hn. Mrs. Margaret





NOES


Armstrong, Ernest
Grant, John D. (Islington, E.)
Miller, Dr. M. S.


Ashton, Joe
Hamilton, James (Bothwell)
Molloy, William


Atkinson, Norman
Hamilton, William (Fife, W.)
Morgan, Elystan (Cardiganshire)


Bagier, Gordon A. T.
Hardy, Peter
Morris, Charles R. (Openshawe)


Benn, Rt. Hn. Anthony Wedgwood
Harper, Joseph
Morris, Rt. Hn. John (Aberavon)


Bidwell, Sydney
Harrison, Walter (Wakefield)
Murray, Ronald King


Brown, Bob (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne, W.)
Heffer, Eric S.
Ogden, Eric


Brown, Ronald (Shoreditch &amp; F'bury)
Hughes, Mark (Durham)
O'Halloran, Michael


Buchanan, Richard (G'gow, Sp'burn)
Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen, N.)
Orme, Stanley


Campbell, I. (Dunbartonshire, W.)
Hughes, Roy (Newport)
Parry, Robert (Liverpool, Exchange)


Cant, R. B.
Janner, Greville
Pendry, Tom


Carter, Ray (Birmingh'm, Northfield)
Jay, Rt. Hn. Douglas
Prescott, John


Clark, David (Colne Valley)
John, Brynmor
Price, William (Rugby)


Cocks, Michael (Bristol, 8.)
Jones, Barry (Flint, E.)
Reed, D. (Sedgefield)


Cohen, Stanley
Jones, Gwynoro (Carmarthen)
Rees, Merlyn (Leeds, S.)


Concannon, J. D.
Jones, T. Alec (Rhondda, W.)
Roberts, Rt. Hn. Goronwy (Caernarvon)


Cox, Thomas (Wandsworth, C.)
Judd, Frank
Rodgers, William (Stockton-on-Tees)


Crawshaw, Richard
Kaufman, Gerald
Roper, John


Cunningham, G. (Islington, 8.W.)
Kerr, Russell
Rose, Paul B.


Dalyell, Tam
Kinnock, Neil
Ross, Rt. Hn. William (Kilmarnock)


Davies, G. Elfed (Rhondda, E.)
Lamond, James
Silkln, Rt. Hn. John (Deptford)


Davis, Clinton (Hackney, C.)
Latham, Arthur
Sillars, James


Deakins, Eric
Lawson, George
Skinner, Dennis


Dempsey, James
Leadbitter, Ted
Small, William


Douglas, Dick (Stirlingshire, E.)
Leonard, Dick
Smith, John (Lanarkshire, N.)


Douglas-Mann, Bruce
Lewis, Arthur (W. Ham, N.)
Spearing, Nigel


Duffy, A. E. P.
Lewis, Ron (Carlisle)
Stallard, A. W.


Dunnett, Jack
Lipton, Marcus
Strang, Gavin


Eadie, Alex
McBride, Neil
Swain, Thomas


English, Michael
McCartney, Hugh
Thomson, Rt. Hn. G. (Dundee, E.)


Evans, Fred
McGuire, Michael
Thin, James


Fernyhough, Rt. Hn. E.
Mackenzie, Gregor
Torney, Tom


Fisher, Mrs. Doris (B'ham, Ladywood)
Mackintosh, John P.
Wellbeloved, James


Fitch, Alan (Wigan)
Maclennan, Robert
Whitehead, Phillip


Fletcher, Ted (Darlington)
McNamara, J. Kevin
Wilson, Alexander (Hamilton)


Foley, Maurice
Marion, Simon (Bootle)
Wilson, Rt. Hn. Harold (Huyton)


Foot, Michael
Mallalleu, J. P. W. (Huddersfield, E.)



Forrester, John
Mellish, Rt Hn. Robert
TELLERS FOR THE NOES:


Gilbert, Dr. John
Mendelson, John
Mr. Kenneth Marks and


Golding, John
Mikardo, Ian
Mr. William Handing.


Grant, George (Morpeth)
Millan, Bruce

Division No. 313.]
AYES
[7.28 a.m.


Adley, Robert
Gray, Hamish
Morrison, Charles (Devizes)


Alison, Michael (Barkston Ash)
Green, Alan
Mudd, David


Allason, James (Hernel Hempstead)
Grieve, Percy
Murton, Oscar


Amery, Rt. Hn. Julian
Griffiths, Eldon (Bury St. Edmunds)
Nabarro, Sir Gerald


Astor, John
Grylls, Michael
Neave, Airey


Atkins, Humphrey
Gummer, Selwyn
Nicholls, Sir Harmar


Awdry, Daniel
Gurden, Harold
Noble, Rt. Hn. Michael


Baker, Kenneth (St. Marylebone)
Hall, Miss Joan (Keighley)
Normanton, Tom


Batsford, Brian
Halt, John (Wycombe)
Nott, John


Bennett, Sir Frederic (Torquay)
Halt-Davis, A. G. F.
Oppenheim, Mrs. Sally


Bennett, Dr. Reginald (Gosport)
Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury)
Orr, Capt. L. P. S.


Benyon, W.
Hannam, John (Exeter)
Osborn, John


Berry, Hn. Anthony
Harrison, Col. Sir Harwood (Eye)
Owen, Idris (Stockport, N.)


Biffen, John
Haselhurst, Alan
Page, John (Harrow, W.)


Biggs-Davison, John
Hastings, Stephen
Parkinson, Cecil (Enfield, W.)


Blaker, Peter
Havers, Michael
Percival, Ian


Body, Richard
Hayhoe, Barney
Peyton, Rt. Hn, John


Boscawen, Robert
Heseltine, Michael
Pike, Miss Mervyn


Bowden, Andrew
Hicks, Robert
Pink, R. Bonner


Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hn. John
Higgins, Terence L.
Pounder, Rafton


Braine, Bernard
Hiley, Joseph
Prior, Rt. Hn. J. M. L.


Bray, Ronald
Hill, John E. B. (Norfolk, S.)
Proudfoot, Wilfred


Brinton, Sir Tatton
Hill, James (Southampton, Test)
Pym, Rt. Hn. Francis


Brown, Sir Edward (Bath)
Holland, Philip
Quennell, Miss J. M.


Bruce-Gardyne, J.
Hordern, Peter
Raison, Timothy


Bryan, Paul
Hornby, Richard
Rawlinson, Rt. Hn. Sir Peter


Buchanan-Smith, Alick (Angus, N&amp;M)
Hornsby-Smith, Rt. Hn. Dame Patricia
Reed, Laurence (Bolton, E.)


Buck, Antony
Howell, Ralph (Norfolk, N.)
Rees, Peter (Dover)


Bullus, Sir Eric
Hunt, John
Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon


Burden, F. A.
Hutchison, Michael Clark
Ridley, Hn. Nicholas


Butler, Adam (Bosworth)
Iremongor, T. L.
Ridsdale, Julian


Campbell, Rt. Hn. G.(Moray &amp; Nairn)
James, David
Roberts, Michael (Cardiff, N.)


Cary, Sir Robert
Jenkin, Patrick (Woodford)
Roberts, Wyn (Conway)


Channon, Paul
Jessel, Toby
Ross, Hugh (Hornsey)


Chapman, Sydney
Johnson Smith, G. (E. Grinstead)
Host, Peter


Chataway, Rt. Hn. Christopher
Jones, Arthur (Northants, S.)
Royle, Anthony


Chichester-Clark, R.
Jopling, Michael
Russell, Sir Ronald


Churchill, W. S.
Joseph, Rt. Hn. Sir Keith
St. John-Stevas, Norman


Clark, William (Surrey, E.)
Kaberry, Sir Donald
Scott, Nicholas



Kellett, Mrs. Elaine
Scott-Hopkins, James


Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe)
Kershaw, Anthony
Sharples, Richard


Clegg, Walter
King, Evelyn (Dorset, S.)
Shaw, Michael (Sc'b'gh &amp; Whitby)


Cooke, Robert
Kinsey, J. R.
Shelton, William (Clapham)


Cordle, John
Kirk, Peter
Simeons, Charles


Cormack, Patrick
Kitson, Timothy
Sinclair, Sir George


Costain, A. P.
Knight, Mrs. Jill
Skeet, T. H. H.


Critchley, Jullian
Knox, David
Smith, Dudley (W'wick &amp; L'mington)


Crouch, David
Lane, David
Soref, Harold


Davies, Rt. Hn. John (Knutsford)
Langford-Holt, Sir John
Speed, Keith


d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Sir Henry
Legge-Bourke, Sir Harry
Spence, John


d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Maj.-Gen. James
Le Marchant, Spencer
Sproat, Iain


Dodds-Parker, Douglas
Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland)
Stainton, Keith


Douglas-Home, Rt. Hn. Sir Alec
Lloyd, Ian (P'tsm'th, Langstone)
Stanbrook, Ivor


Dryson, G. B.
Longden, Gilbert
Stewart-Smith, D. G. (Belper)


du Cann, Rt. Hn. Edward
Loveridge, John
Stodart, Anthony (Edinburgh, W.)


Dykes, Hugh
McCrindle, R. A.
Stokes, John


Eden, Sir John
McLaren, Martin
Stuttaford, Dr. Tom


Edwards, Nicholas (Pembroke)
Maclean, Sir Fitzroy
Sutcliffe, John


Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carshalton)
McMaster, Stanley
Tapsell, Peter


Emery, Peter
Macmillan, Maurice (Farnham)
Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne)


Farr, John
McNair-Wilson, Michael
Taylor, Edward M.(G'gow, Cathcart)


Fell, Anthony
McNair-Wilson, Patrick (NewForest)
Taylor, Frank (Moss Side)


Fenner, Mrs. Peggy
Madel, David
Taylor, Robert (Croydon, N.W.)


Fidler, Michael
Maginnis, John E.
Tebbit, Norman


Finsberg, Geoffney (Hampstead)
Marten, Neil
Temple, John M.


Fisher, Nigel (Surbiton)
Mother, Carol
Thatcher, Rt. Hn. Mrs. Margaret


Fletcher-Cooke, Charles
Maude, Angus
Thomas, John Stradling (Monmouth)


Fortescue, Tim
Mawby, Ray
Thomas, Rt. Hn. Peter (Hendon, S.)


Foster, Sir John
Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J.
Thompson, Sir Richard (Croydon, S.)


Fowler, Norman
Mills, Peter (Torrington)
Tilney, John


Fox, Marcus
Miscampbell, Norman
Trafford, Dr. Anthony


Fraser, Rt. Hn. Hugh (St'fford &amp; Stone)
Mitchell, Lt.-Col. C.(Aberdeenshire, W)
Trew, Peter


Fry, Peter
Mitchell, David (Basingstoke)
Tugendhat, Christopher


Gibson-Watt, David
Moate, Roger
Turton, Rt. Hn. R. H.


Gilmour, Ian (Norfolk, C.)
Molyneaux, James
van Straubenzee, W. R.


Gilmour, Sir John (Fife, E.)
Money, Ernie
Vaughan, Dr. Gerard


Glyn, Dr. Alan
Monks, Mrs. Connie
Vickers, Dame Joan


Godber, Rt. Hn. J. B.
Monro, Hector
Waddington, David


Goodhart, Philip
Montgomery, Fergus
Walder, David (Clitheroe)


Goodhew, Victor
More, Jasper
Walker, Rt. Hn. Peter (Worcester)


Gorst, John
Morgan, Geraint (Denbigh)
Wall, Patrick


Gower, Raymond
Morgan-Giles, Rear-Adm.
Walters, Dennis







Ward, Dame Irene
Wolrige-Gordon, Patrick
Younger, Hon. George


Warren, Kenneth
Wood, Rt. Hn. Richard



White, Roger (Gravesend)
Woodhouse, Hn. Christopher
TELLERS FOR THE AYES:


Whitelaw, Rt. Hn. William
Woodnutt, Mark
Mr. Bernard Weatherill and


Wiggin, Jerry
Worsley, Marcus
Mr. Paul Hawkins.


Wilkinson, John
Wylie, Rt. Hn. N. R.





NOES


Abse, Leo
Grant, George (Morpeth)
Mikardo, Ian


Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.)
Grant, John D. (Islington, E.)
Millan, Bruce


Archer, Peter (Rowley Regis)
Griffiths, Will (Exchange)
Miller, Dr. M. S.


Armstrong, Ernest
Hamilton, James (Bothwell)
Molloy, William


Ashton, Joe
Hamilton, William (Fife, W.)
Morgan, Elystan (Cardiganshire)


Atkinson, Norman
Hamling, William
Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw)


Bagier, Cordon A. T.
Hardy, Peter
Morris, Rt. Hn. John (Aberavon)


Barnett, Joel
Harrison, Walter (Wakefield)
Murray, Ronald King


Benn, Rt. Hn. Anthony Wedgwood
Heffer, Eric S.
O'Halloran, Michael


Bidwell, Sydney
Horam, John
Orme, Stanley


Blenkinsop, Arthur
Hughes, Mark (Durham)
Oswald, Thomas


Booth, Albert
Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen, N.)
Parry, Robert (Liverpool, Exchange)


Boyden, James (Bishop Auckland)
Hughes, Roy (Newport)
Pendry, Tom


Brown, Bob (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne, W.)
Hunter, Adam
Perry, Ernest G.


Brown, Ronald (Shoreditch &amp; F'bury)
Janner, Greville
Prescott, John


Campbell, I. (Dunbartonshire, W.)
Jay, Rt. Hn. Douglas
Price, William (Rugby)


Cant, R. B.
John, Brynmor
Reed, D. (Sedgefield)


Carmichael, Neil
Jones, Barry (Flint, E.)
Rees, Merlyn (Leeds, S.)


Carter, Ray (Birmingh'm, Northfield)
Jones, Gwynoro (Carmarthen)
Rhodes, Geoffrey


Clark, David (Coins Valley)
Jones, T. Alec (Rhondda, W.)
Robertson, John (Paisley)


Cocks, Michael (Bristol, S.)
Judd, Frank
Rodgers, William (Stockton-on-Tees)


Cohen, Stanley
Kaufman, Gerald
Roper, John


Concannon, J. D.
Kerr, Russell
Rose, Paul B.


Cox, Thomas (Wandsworth, c.)
Kinnock, Neil
Ross, Rt. Hn. William (Kilmarnock)


Cunningham, G. (Islington, S.W.)
Lambie, David
Sillars, James


Dalyell, Tam
Lamond, James
Skinner, Dennis


Davies, C. Elfed (Rhondda, E.)
Latham, Arthur
Small, William


Davis, Clinton (Hackney, C.)
Lawson, George
Smith, John (Lanarkshire, N.)


Deakins, Eric
Leadbitter, Ted
Spearing, Nigel


Dempsey, James
Leonard, Dick
Stallard, A. W.


Dormand, J. D.
Lewis, Arthur (W. Ham, N.)
Strang, Gavin


Douglas, Dick (Stirlingshire, E.)
Lewis, Ron (Carlisle)
Swain, Thomas


Douglas-Mann, Bruce
Lipton, Marcus
Thomson, Rt. Hn. G. (Dundee, E.)


Duffy, A. E. P.
Loughlin, Charles
Tinn, James


Dunnett, Jack
McBride, Neil
Torney, Tom


Eadie, Alex
McGuire, Michael
Wallace, George


Ellis, Tom
Mackenzie, Gregor
Wellbeloved, James


English, Michael
Maclennan, Robert
White, James (Glasgow, Pollok)


Evans, Fred
McNamara, J. Kevin
Whitehead, Phillip


Fernyhough, Rt. Hn. E.
MacPherson, Malcolm
Wilson, Alexander (Hamilton)


Fisher, Mrs. Doris(B'ham, Lady wood)
Mahon, Simon (Bootte)
Wilson, Rt. Hn. Harold (Huyton)


Fitch, Alan (Wigan)
Mallalieu, J. P. W.(Huddersfield, E.)



Fletcher, Ted (Darlington)
Marks, Kenneth
TELLERS FOR THE NOES:


Foley, Maurice
Marquand, David
Mr. John Golding and


Foot, Michael
Meacher, Michael
Mr. Joseph Harper.


Forrester, John
Mellish, Rt. Hn. Robert



Gilbert, Dr. John
Mendelson, John





Division No. 314.]
AYES
[7.40 a.m.


Adley, Robert
Bruce-Gardyne, J.
d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Maj.-Gen. James


Alison, Michael (Barkston Ash)
Bryan, Paul
Dodde-Parker, Douglas


Allason, James (Hemel Hempstead)
Buchanan-Smith, Alick (Angus, N&amp;M)
Douglas-Home, Rt. Hn. Sir Alec


Amery, Rt Hn. Julian
Buck, Antony
Drayson, G. B.


Astor, John
Bullus, Sir Eric
du Cann, Rt. Hn. Edward


Atkins, Humphrey
Burden, F. A.
Dykes, Hugh


Awdry, Daniel
Butler, Adam (Bosworth)
Eden, Sir John


Baker, Kenneth (St. Marylebone)
Cary, Sir Robert
Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carshalton)


Batsford, Brian
Charmon, Paul
Elliott, R. W. (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne, N.)


Bennett, Sir Frederic (Torquay)
Chapman, Sydney
Emery, Peter


Bennett, Dr. Reginald (Gosport)
Chatway, Rt. Hn. Christopher
Eyre, Reginald


Benyon, W.
Chichester-Clark, R.
Farr, John


Berry, Hn. Anthony
Churchill, W. S.
Fell, Anthony


Biffen, John
Clark William (Surrey, E.)
Fenner, Mrs. Peggy


Biggs-Davison, John
Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe)
Fidler, Michael


Blaker, Peter
Clegg, Walter
Finsberg, Geoffrey (Hampstead)


Body, Richard
Cooke, Robert
Fletcher-Cooke, Charles


Boscawen, Robert
Cordle, John
Foster, Sir John


Bowden, Andrew
Cormack, Patrick
Fowler, Norman


Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hn. John
Costain, A. P.
Fox, Marcus


Braine, Bernard
Crttchley, Julian
Fry, Peter


Bray, Ronald
Crouch, David
Gibson-Watt, David


Brewis, John
Davies, Rt. Hn. John (Knutsford)
Gilmour, Ian (Norfolk, C.)


Brown, Sir Edward (Bath)
d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Sir Henry
Gillmour, Sir John (Fife, E.)







Glyn, Dr. Alan
Maclean, Sir Fitzroy
Scott, Nicholas


Godber, Rt. Hn. J. B.
McMaster, Stanley
Scott-Hopkins, James


Goodhart, Philip
Macmillan, Maurice (Farnham)
Sharples, Richard


Goodhew, Victor
McNair-Wilson, Michael
Shaw, Michael (Sc'b'gh &amp; Whitby)


Gorst, John
McNair-Wilson, Patrick (NewForest)
Shelton, William (Clapham)


Gower, Raymond
Maddan, Martin
Silverman, Julius


Gray, Hamish
Madel, David
Simeons, Charles


Green, Alan
Maginnis, John E.
Sinclair, Sir George


Grieve, Percy
Marten, Neil
Skeet, T. H. H.


Griffiths, Eldon (Bury St. Edmunds)
Mather, Carol
Smith, Dudley (W'wick &amp; L'mington)


Grylls, Michael
Maude, Angus
Soref, Harold


Gummer, Selwyn
Mawby, Ray
Speed, Keith


Gurden, Harold
Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J.
Spence, John


Hall, Miss Joan (Keightey)
Meyer, Sir Anthony
Sproat, Iain


Hall, John (Wycombe)
Mille, Peter (Torrington)
Stainton, Keith


Hall-Davis, A. G.
Miscampbelt, Norman
Stanbrook, Ivor


Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury)
Mitchell, Lt.-Col. C. (Aberdeenshire, W)
Stewart-Smith, D. G. (Belper)


Hannam, John (Exeter)
Mitchell, David (Basingstoke)
Stodart, Anthony (Edinburgh, W.)


Harrison, Col. Sir Harwood (Eye)
Moate, Roger
Stuttaford, Dr. Tom


Haselhurst, Alan
Molyneaux, James
Sutcliffe, John


Hastings, Stephen
Money, Ernle
Tapsell, Peter


Havers, Michael
Monks, Mrs, Connie
Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne)


Hawkins, Paul
Monro, Hector
Taylor, Edward M.(G'gow, Cathcart)


Hay, John
Montgomery, Fergus
Taylor, Frank (Moss Side)


Hayhoe, Barney
Morgan, Geraint (Denbigh)
Tebbit, Norman


Heseltine, Michael
Morgan-Giles, Rear-Adm.
Temple, John M.


Hicks, Robert
Morrison, Charles (Devizes)
Thatcher, Rt. Hn. Mrs. Margaret


Higgins, Terence L.
Mudd, David
Thomas, John Stradling (Monmouth)


Hiley, Joseph
Murton, Oscar
Thomas, Rt. Hn. Peter (Hendon, S.)


Hill, John E. B. (Norfolk, S.)
Nabarro, Sir Gerald
Thompson, Sir Richard (Croydon, S.)


Hill, James (Southampton, Test)
Neave, Alrey
Tilney, John


Holland, Philip
Nicholls, Sir Harmar
Trafford, Dr. Anthony


Hornby, Richard
Normanton, Tom
Trew, Peter


Hornsby-Smith, Rt. Hn. Dame Patricia
Nott, John
Tugendhat, Christopher


Howell, David (Guildford)
Oppenheim, Mrs. Sally
Turton, Rt. Hn. R. H.


Howell, Ralph (Norfolk, N.)
Orr, Capt. L. P. S.
Vaughan, Dr. Gerard


Hunt, John
Osborn, John
Vickers, Dame Joan


Hutchinson, Michael Clark
Owen, idris (Stockport, N.)
Waddington, David


Iremonger, T. L.
Page, John (Harrow, W.)
Walder, David (Clitheroe)


James, David
Parkinson, Cecil (Enfield, W.)
Walker, Rt Hn. Peter (Worcester)


Jenkin, Patrick (Woodford)
Percival, Ian
Wall, Patrick


Johnson Smith, G. (E. Grinstead)
Peyton, Rt. Hn. John
Walters, Dennis


Jones, Arthur (Northants, S.)
Pike, Miss Mervyn
Ward, Dame Irene


Joping, Michael
Pink, R. Bonner
Warren, Kenneth


Joseph, Rt. Hn. Sir Keith
Pounder, Rafton
Weatherill, Bernard


Kaberry, Sir Donald
Prior, Rt. Hn. J. M. L.
Wells, John (Maidstone)


Kellett, Mrs. Elaine
Proudfoot, Wilfred
White, Roger (Gravesend)


Kershaw, Anthony
Pym, Rt Hn Francis
Whitelaw, Rt. Hn. William


King, Evelyn (Dorset, S.)
Quennell, Miss J. M.
Wiggin, Jerry


King, Tom (Bridgwater)
Raison, Timothy
Wilkinson, John


Kinsey, J. R.
Rawlinson, Rt. Hn. Sir Peter
Wolrige-Gordon, Patrick


Kirk, Peter
Reed, Laurance (Bolton, E.)
Wood, Rt. Hn. Richard


Kitson, Timothy
Rees, Peter (Dover)
Woodhouse, Hn. Christopher


Knight, Mrs. Jill
Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon
Woodnutt, Mark


Knox, David
Ridley, Hn. Nicholas
Worsley, Marcus


Lane, David
Ridsdale, Julian
Wylle, Rt. Hn. N. R.


Langford-Holt, Sir John
Roberts, Michael (Cardiff, N.)
Younger, Hn. George


Legge-Bourke, Mr Harry
Rodgers, Sir John (Sevenoaks)



Le Merchant, Spencer
Rossi, Hugh (Hornsey)
TELLERS FOR THE AYES:


Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland)
Rost, Peter



Longden, Gilbert
Royle, Anthony
Mr. Jasper More and


Loveridge, John
Russell, Sir Ronald
Mr. Tim Fortescue.


McCrindle, R. A.
St. John-Stevas, Norman





NOES


Abse, Leo
Buchan, Norman
Dormand, J. D.


Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.)
Campbell, I. (Dunbartonshire, W.)
Douglas-Mann, Bruce


Archer, Peter (Rowley Regis)
Carmichael, Neil
Duffy, A. E. P.


Armstrong, Ernest
Carter, Ray (Birmingh'm, Northfield)
Dunnett, Jack


Ashley, Jack
Carter-Jones, Lewie (Eccles)
Ellis, Tom


Ashton, Joe
Clark, David (Colne Valley)
English, Michael


Atkinson, Norman
Cooks, Michael (Bristol, S.)
Evans, Fred


Bagier, Gordon A. T.
Cohen, Stanley
Fernyhough, Rt. Hn. E.


Barnes, Michael
Coleman, Donald
Fitch, Alan (Wigan)


Barnett, Joel
Conoannon, J, D.
Fletcher, Raymond (Ilkeston)


Benn, Rt. Hn. Anthony Wedgwood
Cox, Thomas (Wandsworth, C.)
Fletcher, Ted (Darlington)


Bidwell, Sydney
Cunningham, G. (Islington, S.W.)
Foley, Maurice


Blenkinsop, Arthur
Dalyell, Tarn
Foot, Michael


Booth, Albert
Davies, G. Elfed (Rhondda, E.)
Forrester, John


Boyden, James (Bishop Auckland)
Davis, Clinton (Hackney, C.)
Gilbert, Dr. John


Brown, Bob (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne, W.)
Deakins, Eric
Grant, George (Morpeth)


Brown, Hugh D, (G'gow, Provan)
Dempsey, James
Griffiths, Eddie (Brightside)


Brown/Ronald (Shoreditch &amp; F'bury)
Doig, Peter
Griffiths, Will (Exchange)







Hamilton, dames (Bothwell)
Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson
Rees, Merlyn (Leeds, S.)


Hamilton, William (Fife, W.)
McBride, Neil
Rhodes, Geoffrey


Hamling, William
McGuire, Michael
Robertson, John (Paisley)


Hannan, William (G'gow, Maryhill)
McLaren, Martin
Rodgers, William (Stockton-on-Tees)


Hardy, Peter
McNamara, J. Kevin
Roper, John


Harrison, Walter (Wakefield)
MacPherson, Malcolm
Rose, Paul B.


Heffer, Eric 8.
Mahon, Simon (Bootle)
Rossi, Rt. Hn. William (Kilmarnock)


Horam, John
Mallalieu, J. P. W. (Huddersfield, E.)
Sheldon, Robert (Ashton-under-Lyne)


Hughes, Mark (Durham)
Marks, Kenneth
Shore, Rt. Hn. Peter (Stepney)


Hughes, Roy (Newport)
Marquand, David
Skinner, Dennis


Hunter, Adam
Meacher, Michael
Smith, John (Lanarkshire, N.)


Janner, Greville
Mellish, fit. Hn. Robert
Spearing, Nigel


Jenkins, fit. Hn. Roy (Stechford)
Mikardo, Ian
Spriggs, Leslie


John, Brynmor
Miller, Dr. M. S.
Stallard, A. W.


Jones, Barry (Flint, E.)
Molloy, William
Strang, Gavin


Jones, Gwynoro (Carmarthen)
Morgan, Elystan (Cardiganshire)
Swain, Thomas


Jones, T. Alec (Rhondda, W.)
Morris, fit. Hn. John (Aberavon)
Thomas, Rt. Hn. George (Cardiff, W.)


Judd, Frank
Murray, Ronald King
Thomson, Rt. Hn. G. (Dundee, E.)


Kaufman, Gerald
Ogden, Eric
Tinn, James


Kinnock, Neil
O'Halloran, Michael
Torney, Tom


Lambie, David
Orme, Stanley
Wallace, George


Lamond, James
Oswald, Thomas
White, James (Glasgow, Pollok)


Latham, Arthur
Parry, Robert (Liverpool, Exchange)
Whitehead, Phillip


Lawson, George
Pavitt, Laurie
Wilson, Rt. Hn. Harold (Huyton)


Leadbitter, Ted
Pendry, Tom



Leonard, Dick
Perry, Ernest G.
TELLERS FOR THE NOES:


Lewis, Arthur (W. Ham, N.)
Prescott, John
Mr. Joseph Harper and


Lewis, Ron (Carlisle)
Price, William (Rugby)
Mr. John Golding.


Linton, Marcus
Probert, Arthur



Loughlin, Charles
Reed, D. (Sedgefield)

Division No. 315.]
AYES
[7.53 a.m.


Adley, Robert
d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Sir Henry
Hayhoe, Barney


Alison, Michael (Barkston Ash)
d'Avigdor-Golsmid, Maj.-Gen. James
Heath, Rt. Hn. Edward


Allason, James (Hemel Hempstead)
Dodds-Parker, Douglas
Heseltine, Michael


Amery, Rt. Hn. Julian
Douglas-Home, Rt. Hn. Sir Alec
Hicks, Robert


Astor, John
Drayson, G. B.
Higgins, Terence L.


Atkins, Humphrey
du Cann, Rt. Hn. Edward
Hiley, Joseph


Awdry, Daniel
Dykes, Hugh
Hill, John E. S. (Norfolk, S.)


Baker, Kenneth (St. Marylebone)
Eden, Sir John
Hill, James (Southampton, Test)


Baker, W. H. K. (Banff)
Edwards, Nicholas (Pembroke)
Holland, Philip


Batsford, Brian
Elliott, R. W. (N'c'tle-upcn-Tyne, N.)
Hornby, Richard


Bennett, Sir Frederic (Torquay)
Emery, Peter
Hornsby-Smith, Rt. Hn. Dame Patricia


Bennett, Dr. Reginald (Gosport)
Eyre, Reginald
Howell, David (Guildford)


Benyon, W.
Farr, John
Howell, Ralph (Norfolk, N.)


Berry, Hn. Anthony
Fell, Anthony
Hunt, John


Biffen, John
Fenner, Mrs. Peggy
Hutchison, Michael Clark


Biggs-Davison, John
Fidler, Michal
Iremonger, T. L.


Blaker, Peter
Finsberg, Geoffrey (Hampstead)
James, David


Body, Richard
Fletcher-Cooke, Charles
Jessel, Toby


Boscawen, Robert
Fortescue, Tim
Johnson Smith, G. (E. Grinstead)


Bowden, Andrew
Foster, Sir John
Jones, Arthur (Northants, S.)


Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hn. John
Fowler, Norman
Jopling, Michael


Braine, Bernard
Fox, Marcus
Joseph, Rt. Hn. Sir Keith


Bray, Ronald
Fry, Peter
Kaberry, Sir Donald


Brewis, John
Gibson-Watt, David
Kellett, Mrs. Elaine


Brown, Sir Edward (Bath)
Gilmour, Ian (Norfolk, C.)
Kershaw, Anthony


Bruce-Gardyne, J.
Gilmour, Sir John (Fife, E.)
King, Evelyn (Dorset, S.)


Buchanan-Smith, Alick (Angus,N&amp;M)
Glyn, Dr. Alan
King, Tom (Bridgwater)


Buck, Antony
Godber, Rt. Hn. J. B.
Kinsey, J. R.


Bullus, Sir Eric
Gorst, John
Kirk, Peter


Burden, F. A.
Gower, Raymond
Kitson, Timothy


Butler, Adam (Bosworth)
Gray, Hamish
Knox, David


Cary, Sir Robert
Green, Alan
Lane, David


Channon, Paul
Grieve, Percy
Langford-Holt, Sir John


Chapman, Sydney
Grylls, Michael
Legge-Bourke, Sir Harry


Chataway, Rt. Hn. Christopher
Gummer, Selwyn
Le Marchant, Spencer


Chichester-Clark, II.
Gurden, Harold
Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland)


Churchill, W. S.
Hall, Miss Joan (Keighley)
Lloyd, Ian (P'tsm'th, Langstone)


Clark, William (Surrey, E.)
Hall, John (Wycombe)
Longden, Gilbert


Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe)
Hall-Davis, A. G. F.
Loveridge, John


Clegg, Walter
Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury)
McCrindle, R. A.


Cooke, Robert
Hannan, John (Exeter)
Maclean, Sir Fitzroy


Cordle, John
Harrison, Col. Sir Harwood (Eye)
McMaster, Stanley


Cormack, Patrick
Haselhurst, Alan
Macmillan, Maurice (Farnham)


Costain, A. P.
Hastings, Stephen
McNair-Wilson, Michael


Critchley, Julian
Havers, Michael
McNair-Wilson, Patrick (NewForett)


Crouch, David
Hawkins, Paul
Maddan, Martin


Davies, Rt. Hn. John (Knutsford)
Hay, John
Madel, David







Maginnis, John E.
Proudfoot, Wilfred
Taylor, Frank (Moss Side)


Marten, Neil
Pym, Rt. Hn. Francis
Taylor, Robert (Croydon, N.W.)


Mather, Carol
Quennell, Miss J. M.
Tebbit, Norman


Maude, Angus
Raison, Timothy
Temple, John M.


Maudling, At. Hn. Reginald
Rawlinson, Rt. Hn. Sir Peter
Thatcher, Rt. Hn. Mrs. Margaret


Mawby, Ray
Reed, Laurance (Bolton, E.)
Thomas, John Stradling (Monmouth)


Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J.
Rees, Peter (Dover)
Thomas, Rt. Hn. Peter (Hendon, S.)


Meyer, Sir Anthony
Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon
Thompson, Sir Richard (Croydon, S.)


Mills, Peter (Torrington)
Ridley, Hn. Nicholas
Tilney, John


Miscampbell, Norman
Ridsdale, Julian
Trafford, Dr. Anthony


Mitchell, Lt.Col. C.(Aberdeenshire, W)
Roberts, Michael (Cardiff, N.)
Trew, Peter


Mitchell, David (Basingstoke)
Roberts, Wyn (Conway)
Tugendhat, Christopher


Moate, Roger
Rodgers, sir John (Sevenoaks)
Turton, Rt. Hn. R. H.


Molyneaux, James
Rost, Peter
van Straubenzee, W. II.


Money, Ernie
Royle, Anthony
Vaughan, Dr. Gerard


Monks, Mrs. Connie
Russell, Sir Ronald
Waddington, David


Montgomery, Fergus
Scott, Nicholas
Walder, David (Clitheroe)


More, Jasper
Scott-Hopkins, James
Walker, Rt. Hn. Peter (Worcester)


Morgan, Geraint (Denbigh)
Sharples, Richard
Wall, Patrick


Morgan-Giles, Rear-Adm.
Shaw, Michael (Sc'b'gh &amp; Whitby)
Walters, Dennis


Morrison, Charles (Devizes)
Shelton, William (Clapham)
Ward, Dame Irene


Mudd, David
Simeons, Charles
Warren, Kenneth


Murton, Oscar
Sinclair, Sir George
Weatherill, Bernard


Nabarro, Sir Gerald
Skeet, T. H. H.
Wells, John (Maidstone)


Neave, Airey
Smith, Dudley (W'wick &amp; L'mington)
White, Roger (Gravesend)


Nicholls, Sir Harmar
Soref, Harold
Wiggin, Jerry


Normanton, Tom
Speed, Keith
Wilkinson, John


Nott, John
Spence, John
Wolrige-Gordon, Patrick


Oppenheim, Mrs. Sally
Sproat, Iain
Wood, Rt. Hn. Richard


Orr, Capt. L. P. 8.
Stainton, Keith
Woodhouse, Hn. Christopher


Osborn, John
Stanbrook, Ivor
Woodnutt, Mark


Owen, Idris (Stockport, N.)
Stewart-Smith, D. G. (Belper)
Worsley, Marcus


Page, John (Harrow, W.)
Stodart, Anthony (Edinburgh, W.)
Wylie, Rt. Hn. N. R.


Parkinson, Cecil (Enfield, W.)
Stokes, John
Younger, Hn. George


Percival, Ian
Stuttaford, Dr. Tom



Peyton, Rt. Hn. John
Sutcliffe, John
TELLERS FOR THE AYES:


Pike, Miss Mervyn
Tapsell, Peter
Mr. Hector Monro and


Pink, R. Bonner
Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne)
Mr. Victor Goodhew.


Pounder, Rafton
Taylor, Edward M.(G'gow, Cathcart)





NOES


Abse, Leo
Fletcher, Raymond (Ilkeston)
Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson


Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.)
Fletcher, Ted (Darlington)
McBride, Neil


Armstrong, Ernest
Foley, Maurice
McGuire, Michael


Ashley, Jack
Gilbert, Dr. John
Maclennan, Robert


Ashton, Joe
Grant, Anthony (Harrow, C.)
McNamara, J. Kevin


Bagier, Gordon A. T.
Griffiths, Eddie (Brightside)
MacPherson, Malcolm


Barnes, Michael
Griffiths, Will (Exchange)
Mahon, Simon (Bootle)


Barnett, Joel
Hamilton, James (Bothwell)
Mallalieu, J. P. W.(Huddersfield, E.)


Benn, Rt. Hn. Anthony Wedgwood
Hamilton, William (Fife, W.)
Marks, Kenneth


Bidwell, Sydney
Hamling, William
Marquand, David


Blenkinsop, Arthur
Hannan, William (G'gow, Maryhill)
Meacher, Michael


Booth, Albert
Hardy, Peter
Mellish, Rt. Hn. Robert


Boyden, James (Bishop Auckland)
Harrison, Walter (Wakefield)
Mikardo, Ian


Brown, Hugh D. (G'gow, Provan)
Healey, Rt. Hn. Denis
Miller, Dr. M. 8.


Brown, Ronald (Shoreditch &amp; F'bury)
Heffer, Eric S.
Molloy, William


Buchan, Norman
Horam, John
Morris, Rt. Hn. John (Aberavon)


Campbell, I. (Dunbartonshire, W.)
Hunter, Adam
Mulley, Rt. Hn. Frederick


Carmichael, Neil
Janner, Greville
Murray, Ronald King


Carter, Ray (Birmingh'm, Northfield)
Jenkins, Hugh (Putney)
Ogden, Erio


Carter-Jones, Lewis (Eccles)
Jenkins, Rt. Hn. Roy (Stechford)
O'Halloran, Michael


Clark, David (Come Valley)
John, Brynmor
O'Malley, Brian


Cocks, Michael (Bristol, S.)
Johnson, Carol (Lewisham, S.)
Orme, Stanley


Cohen, Stanley
Johnson, James (K'ston-on-Hull, W.)
Oswald, Thomas


Coleman, Donald
Jones, Barry (Flint, E.)
Parry, Robert (Liverpool, Exchange)


Concannon, J. D.
Jones, Dan (Burnley)
Pavitt, Laurie


Cox, Thomas (Wandsworth, c.)
Jones, Gwynoro (Carmarthen)
Peart, Rt. Hn. Fred


Cunningham, G. (Islington, S.W.)
Jones, T. Afec (Rhondda, W.)
Pendry, Tom


Dalyell, Tarn
Judd, Frank
Pentland, Norman


Davies, Denzil (Llanelly)
Kaufman, Gerald
Perry, Ernest G.


Davies, G. Elfed (Rhondda, E.)
Kinnock, Neil
Prescott, John


Davis, Clinton (Hackney, C.)
Lambie, David
Price, William (Rugby)


Deakins, Erie
Lamond, James
Probert, Arthur


Delargy, H. J.
Latham, Arthur
Reed, D. (Sedgefield)


Dempsey, James
Lawson, George
Rees, Merlyn (Loods, S.)


Doig, Peter
Leadbitter, Ted
Rhodes, Geoffrey


Dormand, 1. D.
Leonard, Dick
Robertson, John (Paisley)


Douglas-Mann, Bruce
Lestor, Miss Joan
Roderick, Caerwyn E. (Br'c'n&amp;R'dnor)


Ellis, Tom
Lewis, Arthur (W. Ham, N.)
Rodgers, William (Stockton-on-Tees)


English, Michael
Lewis, Ron (Carlisle)
Roper, John


Evans, Fred
Lipton, Marcus
Rose, Paul B.


Fernyhough, Rt. Hn. E.
Loughlin, Charles
Ross, Rt. Hn. William (Kilmarnock)







Sheldon, Robert (Ashton-under-Lyne)
Strang, Gavin
White, James (Glasgow, Pollok)


Shore, Rt. Hn. Peter (Stepney)
Summerskill, Hn. Dr. Shirley
Whitehead, Philip


Skinner, Dennis
Swain, Thomas
Wilson, Rt. Hn. Harold (Huyton)


Smith, John (Lanrakshire, N.)
Thomas, Rt. Hn. George (Cardiff, W.)



Spearing, Nigel
Tinn, James
TELLERS FOR THE NOES:


Spriggs, Leslie
Torney, Tom
Mr. Joseph Harper and


Stallard, A. W.
Wallace, George
Mr. John Golding.

Division No. 316.]
AYES
[8.4 a.m.


Adley, Robert
Gray, Hamish
Michell, David (Basingstoke)


Alison, Michael (Barkston Ash)
Green, Alan
Moate, Roger


Allason, James (Hemel Hempstead)
Grieve, Percy
Molyneaux, James


Atkins, Humphrey
Grylls, Michael
Money, Ernie


Awdry, Daniel
Gurden, Harold
Monks, Mrs. Connie


Baker, W. H. K. (Banff)
Hall, Miss Joan (Keighley)
Monro, Hector


Batsford, Brian
Hall, John (Wycombe)
Montgomery, Fergus


Bennett, Sir Frederic (Torquay)
Hall-Davis, A. G. F.
More, Jasper


Bennett, Dr. Reginald (Go[...]ort)
Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury)
Morgan, Geraint (Denbigh)


Benyon, W.
Hannam, John (Exeter)
Morgan-Giles, Rear-Adm.


Berry, Hn. Anthony
Harrison, Col. Sir Harwood (Eye)
Morrison, Charles (Devizes)


Biffen, John
Haselhurst, Alan
Mutton, Oscar


Blaker, Peter
Hastings, Stephen
Mudd, David


Body, Richard
Havers, Michael
Nabarro, Sir Gerald


Boscawen, Robert
Hay, John
Neave, Airey


Bowden, Andrew
Hayhoe, Barney
Nicholls, Sir Harmar


Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hon. John
Heath, Rt. Hn. Edward
Normanton, Tom


Braine, Bernard
Heseltine, Michael
Nott, John


Bray, Ronald
Hicks, Robert
Oppenheim, Mrs. Sally


Brewis, John
Higgins, Terence L.
Osborn, John


Brown, Sir Edward (Bath)
Hiley, Joseph
Owen, Idris (Stockport, N.)


Bruce-Gardyne, J.
Hill, John E. B. (Norfolk, S.)
Page, John (Harrow, W.)


Bullus, Sir Eric
Hill, James (Southampton, Test)
Parkinson, Cecil (Enfield, W.)


Burden, F. A.
Holland, Philip
Percival, Ian


Butler, Adam (Bosworth)
Hordern, Peter
Peyton, Rt. Hn. John


Cary, Sir Robert
Hornsby-Smith, Rt. Hn. Dame Patricia
Pike, Miss Mervyn


Channon, Paul
Howell, David (Guildford)
Pink R. Bonner


Chapman, Sydney
Howell, Ralph (Norfolk, N.)
Pounder, Rafton


Chichester-Clark, R.
Hunt, John
Price, David (Eastleigh)


Churchill, W. S.
Hutchison, Michael Clark
Proudfoot, Wilfred


Clark, William (Surrey, E.)
James, David
Pym, Rt. Hn. Francis


Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe)
Jenkin, Patrick (Woodford)
Quennell, Miss J. M.


Clegg, Walter
Jessel, Toby
Raison, Timothy


Cooke, Robert
Johnson Smith, G. (E. Grinstead)
Rawlinson, Rt. Hn. Sir Peter


Cordle, John
Jones, Arthur (Northants, S.)
Reed, Laurance (Bolton, E.)


Corfield, Rt. Hn. Frederick
Jopling, Michael
Rees, Peter (Dover)


Costain, A. P.
Kaberry, Sir Donald
Rees-Davies, W. R.


Critchley, Julian
Kellett, Mrs. Elaine
Ridley, Hn. Nicholas


Crouch, David
Kershaw, Anthony
Ridsdale, Julian


Davies, Rt. Hn. John (Knutsford)
Kimball, Marcus
Roberts, Michael (Cardiff, N.)


d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Sir Henry
King, Evelyn (Dorset, S.)
Rodgers, Sir John (Sevenoaks)


Dodds-Parker, Douglasa
King, Tom (Bridgwater)
Rost, Peter


Drayson, G. B.
Kinsey, J. R.
Royle, Anthony


du Cann, Rt. Hn. Edward
Kirk, Peter
Russell, Sir Ronald


Dykes, Hugh
Kitson, Timothy
Scott, Nicholas


Eden, Sir John
Lane, David
Scott-Hopkins, James


Edwards, Nicholas (Pembroke)
Langford-Holt, Sir John
Shaw, Michael (Sc'b'gh &amp; Whitby)


Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carshalton)
Legge-Bourke, Sir Harry
Shelton, William (Clapham)


Elliott, R. w. (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne, N.)
Le Mar chant, Spencer
Simeons, Charles


Emery, Peter
Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland)
Sinclair, Sir George


Eyre, Reginald
Lloyd. Ian (P'tsm'th, Langstone)
Skeet, T. H. H.


Farr, John
Longden, Gilbert
Smith, Dudley (W'wick &amp; L'mington)


Fenner, Mrs. Peggy
Loveridge, John
Soref, Harold


Finsberg, Geoffrey (Hampetead)
McCrindle, R. A.
Speed, Keith


Fisher, Nigel (Surbiton)
Maclean, Sir Fitzroy
Spence, John


Fletcher-Cooke, Charles
McMaster, Stanley
Sproat, Iain


Fortescue, Tim
Macmillan, Maurice (Farnham)
Stanbrook, Ivor


Foster, Sir John
McNail-Wilson, Michael
Stewart-Smith, D. G. (Belper)


Fox, Marcus
McNair-Wifson, Patrick (NewForest)
Stodart, Anthony (Edinburgh, W.)


Fowler, Norman
Maddan, Martin
Stodart-Scott, col. Sir M.


Fry, Peter
Maginnis. John E.
Stokes, John


Galbraith, Hn. T. G.
Marten, Neil
Stuttaford, Dr. Tom


Gibson-Watt, David
Mather, Carol
Sutcliffe, John


Gilmour, Ian (Norfolk, C.)
Maudil, Angus
Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne)


Glyn, Dr. Alan
Maudling, Rt. Hn. Reginald
Taylor, Edward M.(G'gow, Cathcart)


Godber, Rt, Hn. J. B.
Mawby, Ray
Taylor, Frank (Moss Side)


Goodhact, Philip
Maxwcll-Hyslop, R. J.
Taylor, Robert (Croydon, N.W.)


Gorst, John
Meyer, Sir Anthony
Tebbit, Norman


Goodhew, Victor
Mills, Peter (Tonnington)
Temple, John M.


Cower, Raymond
Miscampbell, Norman
Thatcher, Rt. Hn. Mrs. Margaret







Thomas, John Stradling (Monmouth)
Walker, Rt. Hn. Peter (Worcester)
Wood, Rt. Hn. Richard


Thomas, Rt. Hn. Peter (Hendon, S.)
Wall, Patrick
Woodhouse, Hn. Christopher


Thompson, Sir Richard (Croydon, S.)
Walters, Dennis
Woodnutt, Mark


Tilney, John
Ward, Dame Irene
Worsley, Marcus


Trafford. Dr. Anthony
Warren, Kenneth
Wylie, Rt. Hn. N. R.


Trew, Peter
Wells, John (Maidstone)
Younger, Hn. George


Tugendhat, Christopher
White, Roger (Gravesend)



Turton, Rt. Hn. R. H.
Whitelaw, Rt. Hn. William
TELLERS FOR THE AYES:


Vaughan, Dr. Gerard
Wiggin, Jerry
Mr. Bernard Weatherill and


Waddington, David
Wilkinson, John
Mr. Paul Hawkins.




NOES


Abse, Leo
Hannan, William (G'gow, Maryhill)
Mulley, Rt. Hn. Frederick


Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.)
Hardy, Peter
Murray, Ronald King


Ashley, Jack
Harrison, Walter (Wakefield)
Ogden, Eric


Bagier, Gordon A. T.
Hattersley, Roy
O'Halloran, Michael


Barnes, Michael
Healey, Rt. Hn. Denis
O'Malley, Brian


Barnett, Joel
Heffer, Erie S.
Orme, Stanley


Benn, Rt. Hn. Anthony Wedgwood
Horam, John
Oswald, Thomas


Bishop, E. S.
Howell, Denis (Small Heath)
Parry, Robert (Liverpool, Exchange)


Blenkinsop, Arthur
Hughes, Rt. Hn. Cledwin (Anglesey)
Pavttt, Laurie


Booth, Albert
Hunter, Adam
Peart, Rt. Hn. Fred


Boyden, James (Bishop Auckland)
Janner, Greville
Pendry, Tom


Bradley, Tom
Jenkins, Hugh (Putney)
Pentland, Norman


Brown, Hugh D. (G'gow, Provan)
Jenkins, Rt. Hn. Roy (Stechford)
Perry, Ernest G.


Buchan, Norman
Johnson, Carol (Lewisham, S.)
Prescott, John


Butler, Mrs. Joyce (Wood Green)
Johnson, James (K'ston-on-Hull, W.)
Price, William (Rugby)


Campbell, I. (Dunbartonshire, W.)
Johnson, Walter (Derby, S.)
Probert, Arthur


Carrmichael, Neil
Jones, Barry (PISM, E.)
Reed, D. (Sedgefield)


Carter, Ray (Birmingh'm, Northfield)
Jones, Dan (Burnley)
Rees, Merlyn (Leeds, S.)


Carter-Jones, Lewis (Eccles)
Jones, Gwynoro (Carmarthen)
Rhodes, Geoffrey


Castle, Rt. Hn. Barbara
Judd, Frank
Robertson, John (Paisley)


Clark, David (Colne Valley)
Kaufman, Gerald
Roderick, Caerwyn E.(Br'c'n&amp;R'dnor)


Cocks, Michael (Bristol, S.)
Kelley, Richard
Roper, John


Cohen, Stanley
Kinnock, Neil
Rose, Paul B.


Coleman, Donald
Lambie, David
Ross, Rt. Hn. William (Kilmarnock)


Concannon, J. D.
Lamond, James
Sheldon, Robert (Ashton-under-Lyne)


Cox, Thomas (Wandsworth, C.)
Latham, Arthur
Shore, Rt. Hn. Peter (Stepney)


Cunningham, G. (Islington, S.W.)
Lawson, George
Skinner, Dennis


Dalyell, Tam
Leadbitter, Ted
Smith, John (Lanarkshire, N.)


Davies, Denzil (Llanelly)
Leonard, Dick
Spearing, Nigel


Davies, G. Elfed (Rhondda, E.)
Lestor, Miss Joan
Spriggs, Leslie


Deakins, Eric
Lewis, Arthur (W. Ham N.)
Stillard, A. W.


Delargy, H. J.
Lewis, Ron (Carlisle)
Strang, Gavin


Dempsey, James
Loughlin, Charles
Summerskill, Hn. Dr. Shirley


Doig, Peter
Lyon, Alexander W. (York)
Swain, Thomas


Dormand, J. D.
Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson
Thomas, Rt. Hn. George (Cardiff, W.)


Douglas-Mann, Bruce
McBride, Neil
Wainwright, Edwin


Edwards, William (Merioneth)
McElhone, Frank
Wallace, George


Ellis, Tom
McGuire, Michael
Wellbeloved, James


English, Michael
Maclennan, Robert
White, James (Glasgow, Pollok)


Evans, Fred
McNamara, J. Kevin
Whitehead, Phillip


Fletcher, Raymond (Ilkeston)
MacPherson, Malcolm
Whitlock, William


Foley, Maurice
Marquand, David
Willey, Rt. Hn. Frederick


Gilbert, Dr. John
Mason, Rt. Hn. Roy
Wilson, Rt. Hn. Harold (Huyton)


Grant, George (Morpeth)
Meacher, Michael



Griffiths, Eddie (Brightside)
Mellish, Rt. Hn. Robert
TELLERS FOR THE NOES:


Griffiths, Will (Exchange)
Mikardo, Ian
Mr. Joseph Harper and


Hamilton, William (Fife, W.)
Miller, Dr. M. S.
Mr. John Golding.


Hamling, William
Milne, Edward (Blyth)

Division No. 317.]
AYES
[8.15 a.m.


Adley, Robert
Bray, Ronald
Costain, A. P.


Alison, Michael (Barkston Ash)
Brewis, John
Critchley, Julian


Allason, James (Hemel Hempstead)
Brinton, Sir Tatton
Crouch, David


Amery, Rt. Hn. Julian
Brown, Sir Edward (Bath)
Davies, Rt. Hn. John (Knutsford)


Atkins, Humphrey
Bullus, Sir Eric
d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Sir Henry


Baker, W. H. K. (Banff)
Burden, F. A.
Dodds-Parker, Douglas


Batsford, Brian
Butler, Adam (Bosworth)
Douglas-Home, Rt. Hn. Sir Alec


Bennett, Sir Frederic (Torquay)
Gary, Sir Robert
Drayson, G. B.


Bennett, Dr. Reginald (Gosport)
Chapman, Sydney
du Cann, Rt. Hn. Edward


Benyon, W.
Chichester-Clark, R.
Dykes, Hugh


Biffen, John
Churchill, W. S.
Eden, Sir John


Blaker, Peter
Clark, William (Surrey, E.)
Edwards, Nicholas (Pembroke)


Body, Richard
Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe)
Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carshalton)


Boscawen, Robert
Cockeram, Eric
Elliott, R. W.(N'c'tle-upon-Tyne, N.)


Bowden, Andrew
Cooke, Robert
Emery, Peter


Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hn. John
Cordle, John
Eyre, Reginald


Braine, Bernard
Corfield, Rt. Hn. Frederick
Farr, John







Fenner, Mrs. Peggy
Kitson, Timothy
Royle, Anthony


Finsberg, Geoffrey (Hempstead)
Knight, Mrs. Jill
Russell, Sir Ronald


Fletcher-Cooke, Charles
Langford-Holt, Sir John
Scott, Nicholas


Fortescue, Tim
Legge-Bourke, Sir Harry
Shaw, Michael (Sc'b'gh &amp; Whitby)


Foster, Sir John
Le Marchant, Spencer
Shelton, William (Clapham)


Fowler, Norman
Lloyd, Ian (P'tsm'th, Langstone)
Simeons, Charles


Fox, Marcus
Longden, Gilbert
Skeet, T. H. H.


Galbraith, Hn. T. G.
Loveridge, John
Smith, Dudley (W'wick &amp; L'mington)


Glyn, Dr. Alan
Maclean, Sir Fitzroy
Soref, Harold


Godber, Rt. Hn. J. B.
McMaster, Stanley
Speed, Keith


Goodhart, Phillip
Macmillan, Maurice (Farnham)
Spence, John


Goodhew, Victor
McNair-Wilson, Michael
Stanbrook, Ivor


Cower, Raymond
Maddan, Martin
Stewart-Smith, D. G. (Belper)


Gray, Hamish
Marten, Neil
Stodart, Anthony (Edinburgh, W.)


Green, Alan
Mather, Carol
Stoddart-Scott, Col. Sir M.


Grieve, Percy
Maude, Angus
Stokes, John


Grylls, Michael
Maudling, Rt. Hn. Reginald
Stuttaford, Dr. Tom


Gurden, Harold
Mawby, Ray
Sutcliffe, John


Hall, John (Wycombe)
Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J.
Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne)


Hall-Davis, A G. F.
Meyer, Sir Anthony
Taylor, Edward M. (G'gow, Cathcart)


Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury)
Miscampbell, Norman
Taylor, Frank (Moss Side)


Hannan, John (Exeter)
Moate, Roger
Taylor, Robert (Croydon, N.W.)


Harrison, Col. Sir Harwood (Eye)
Molyneaux, James
Tebbit, Norman


Haselhurst, Alan
Monro, Hector
Temple, John M.


Hastings, Stephen
Montgomery, Fergus
Thatcher, Rt. Hn. Mrs. Margaret


Hawkins, Paul
Morgan, Geraint (Denbigh)
Thomas, John Stradling (Monmouth)


Hay, John
Morgan-Giles, Rear-Adm.
Thomas, Rt. Hn. Peter (Hendon, S.)


Heath, Rt. Hn. Edward
Mudd, David
Thompson, Sir Richard (Croydon, S.)


Hicks, Robert
Murton, Oscar
Tilney, John


Higgins, Terence L.
Nabarro, Sir Gerald
Trafford, Dr. Anthony


Hiley, Joseph
Neave, Airey
Turton, Rt. Hn. R. H.


Hill, John E. B. (Norfolk, S.)
Nicholls, Sir Harmar
van Straubenzee, W. R.


Hill, James (Southampton, Test)
Normanton, Tom
Vaughan, Dr. Gerard


Holland, Philip
Nott, John
Waddington, David


Hordern, Peter
Oppenheim, Mrs. Sally
Walker, Rt. Hn. Peter (Worcester)


Hornsby-Smith, Rt. Hn. Dame Patricia
Owen, Idris (Stockport, N.)
Wall, Patrick


Howell, David (Guildford)
Page, John (Harrow, W.)
Ward, Dame Irene


Hutchison, Michael Clark
Parkinson, Cecil (Enfield, W.)
Warren, Kenneth


James, David
Peyton, Rt. Hn. John
Weatherill, Bernard


Jenkin, Patrick (Woodford)
Pike, Miss Mervyn
Wells, John (Maidstone)


Jessel, Toby
Pink, R. Bonner
White, Roger (Gravesend)


Johnson Smith, G. (E. Grinstead)
Pounder, Rafton
Whitelaw, Rt. Hn. William


Jones, Arthur (Northants, S.)
Price, David (Eastleigh)
Wiggin, Jerry


Jopling, Michael
Proudfoot, Wilfred
Wilkinson, John


Joseph, Rt. Hn. Sir Keith
Pym, Rt. Hn. Francis
Wood, Rt. Hn. Richard


Kaberry, Sir Donald
Quennell, Miss J. M.
Woodhouse, Hn. Christopher


Kellett, Mrs. Elaine
Raison, Timothy
Worsley, Marcus


Kershaw, Anthony
Rawlinson, Rt. Hn. Sir Peter
Wylie, Rt. Hn. N. R.


Kimball, Marcus
Reed, Laurance (Bolton, E.)
Younger, Hn. George


King, Evelyn (Dorset, S.)
Rees-Davies, W. R.



King, Tom (Bridgwater)
Ridsdale, Julian
TELLERS FOR THE AYES:


Kinsey, J. R.
Roberts, Michael (Cardiff, N.)
Mr. Jasper More and


Kirk, Peter
Rodgers, Sir John (Sevenoaks)
Mr. Walter Clegg.




NOES


Abse, Leo
Dalyell, Tam
Hatters ley, Roy


Allaun, Frank (Saltan), E.)
Davidson, Arthur
Healey, Rt. Hn. Denis


Ashley, Jack
Davies, Denzil (Llanelly)
Heffer, Eric S.


Bagier, Gordon A. T.
Davies, Ifor (Gower)
Horam, John


Barnes, Michael
Deakins, Erie
Howell, Denis (Small Heath)


Barnett, Joel
Delargy, H, J.
Hughes, Rt. Hn. Cledwyn (Anglesey)


Benn, Rt. Hn. Anthony Wedgwood
Dempsey, James
Hunter, Adam


Bennett, James (Glasgow, Bridgeton)
Doig, Peter
Janner, Greville


Bishop, E. S.
Dormand, J. D.
Jenkins, Hugh (Putney)


Blenkinsop, Arthur
Douglas-Mann, Bruce
Jenkins, Rt. Hn. Roy (Stechford)


Boardman, H. (Leigh)
Edwards, William (Merioneth)
Johnson, Carol (Lewisham, S.)


Booth, Albert
Ellis, Tom
Johnson, James (K'ston-on-Hull, W.)


Boyden, James (Bishop Auckland)
English, Michael
Johnson, Walter (Derby, S.)


Bradley, Tom
Evans, Fred
Jones, Barry (Flint, E.)


Brown, Hugh D. (G'gow, Provan)
Fletcher, Raymond (Ilkeston)
Jones, Dan (Burnley)


Buchan, Norman
Foley, Maurice
Jones, Gwynoro (Carmarthen)


Butler, Mrs. Joyce (Wood Green)
Gilbert, Dr. John
Judd, Frank


Campbell, I. (Dunbartonshire, W.)
Golding, John
Kaufman, Gerald


Carmichael, Neil
Gordon Walker, Rt. Hn. P. C.
Kelley, Richard


Carter, Ray (Birmingh'm, Northfield)
Grant, George (Morpeth)
Kinnock, Neil


Carter-Jones, Lewis (Eccles)
Griffiths, Eddie (Brightside)
Lambie, David


Castle, Rt. Hn. Barbara
Griffiths, Will (Exchange)
Lamond, James


Cocks, Michael (Bristol, s.)
Hamilton, William (Fife, W.)
Latham, Arthur


Cohen, Stanley
Hamling, William
Lawson, George


Concannon, J. D.
Hannan, William (G'gow, Maryhill)
Leadbitter, Ted


Conlan, Bernard
Harper, Joseph
Leonard, Dick


Cox, Thomas (Wandsworth, C.)
Harrison, Walter (Wakefield)
Lestor, Miss Joan







Lewis, Arthur (W. Ham, N.)
Orme, Stanley
Stallard, A. W.


Lewis, Ron (Carlisle)
Oswald, Thomas
Strang, Gavin


Loughlin, Charles
Parry, Robert (Liverpool, Exchange)
Summerskill, Hn. Dr. Shirley


Lyon, Alexander W. (York)
Pavitt, Laurie
Swain, Thomas


Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson
Peart, Rt. Hn. Fred
Thomas, Rt. Hn. George (Cardiff, W.)


McElhone, Frank
Pendry, Tom
Tuck, Raphael


McGuire, Michael
Pentland, Norman
Urwin, T. W.


Maclennan, Robert
Prescott, John
Wainwright, Edwin


McNamara, J. Kevin
Probert, Arthur
Wallace, George


MacPherson, Malcolm
Reed, D. (Sedgefield)
Watkins, David


Marquand, David
Rhodes, Geoffrey
Wellbeloved, James


Mason, Rt. Hn. Roy
Roberts, Albert (Normanton)
White, James (Glasgow, Pollok)


Meacher, Michael
Robertson, John (Paisley)
Whitehead, Phillip


Mellish, Rt. Hn. Robert
Roderick, Caerwyn E. (Br'c'n &amp; R'dnor)
Whitlock, William


Mikardo, Ian
Roper, John
Willey, Rt. Hn. Frederick


Milne, Edward (Blyth)
Ross, Rt. Hn. William (Kilmarnock)
Williams, Alan (Swansea, W.)


Moyle, Roland
Sheldon, Robert (Ashton-under-Lyne)
Wilson, Rt. Hn. Harold (Huyton)


Mulley, Rt. Hn. Frederick
Shore, Rt. Hn. Peter (Stepney)



O'Halloran, Michael
Skinner, Dennis
TELLERS FOR THE NOES:


O'Malley, Brian
Smith, John (Lanarkshire, N.)
Mr. Ernest G. Perry and


Orbach, Maurice
Spriggs, Leslie
Mr. Donald Coleman.

Division No. 318.]
AYES
[8.27 a.m.


Adley, Robert
Goodhart, Philip
Mather, Carol


Alison, Michael (Barkston Ash)
Goodhew, Victor
Maude, Angus


Amery, Rt. Hn. Julian
Gray, Hamish
Maudling, Rt. Hn. Reginald


Atkins, Humphrey
Green, Alan
Mawby, Ray


Batsford, Brian
Grieve, Percy
Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J.


Beamish, Col. Sir Tufton
Grylls, Michael
Meyer, Sir Anthony


Bennett, Sir Frederic (Torquay)
Gummer, Selwyn
Moate, Roger


Bennett, Dr. Reginald (Gosport)
Gurden, Harold
Molyneaux, James


Biffen, John
Hall, Miss Joan (Keighley)
Monks, Mrs. Connie


Body, Richard
Hall, John (Wycombe)
Montgomery, Fergus


Boscawen, Robert
Hall-Davis, A. G. F.
Morgan, Geraint (Denbigh)


Bossom, Sir Clive
Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury)
Mudd, David


Bowden, Andrew
Hannam, John (Exeter)
Murton, Oscar


Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hn. John
Harrison, Cot. Sir Harwood (Eye)
Nabarro, Sir Gerald


Braine, Bernard
Hastings, Stephen
Neave, Airey


Bray, Ronald
Hawkins, Paul
Nicholls, Sir Harmar


Brewis, John
Hay, John
Normanton, Tom


Brinton, Sir Tatton
Hayhoe, Barney
Nott, John




Oppenheim, Mrs Sally


Brown, Sir Edward (Bath)
Heath, Rt. Hn. Edward
Orr, Capt. L. P. S.


Bullus, Sir Eric
Hicks, Robert
Owen, Idris (Stockport, N.)


Burden, F. A.
Higgins, Terence L.
Page, John (Harrow, W.)


Butler, Adam (Bosworth)
Hilt, John E. B. (Norfolk, S.)
Parkinson, Cecil (Enfield, W.)


Cary, Sir Robert
Hill, James (Southampton, Test)
Peyton, Rt. Hn. John


Chapman, Sydney
Holland, Philip
Pike, Miss Mervyn


Chichester-Clark, R.
Hordern, Peter
Pink R. Bonner


Churchill, W. S.
Hornsby-Smith, Rt. Hn. Dame Patricia
Pounder, Rafton


Clark, William (Surrey, E.)
Howell, David (Guildford)
Price, David (Eastleigh)


Cockeram, Eric
Hutchison, Michael Clark
Proudfoot, Wilfred


Cooke, Robert
Iremonger, T. L.
Pym, Rt. Hn. Francis


Cordle, John
James, David
Quennell, Miss J. M.


Corfield, Rt. Hn. Frederick
Jenkin, Patrick (Woodford)
Rawlinson, Rt. Hn, Sir Peter


Costain, A. P.
Jessel, Toby
Reed, Laurance (Bolton, E.)


Critchley, Julian
Johnson Smith, G. (E. Grinstead)
Rees-Davies, W. R.


Crouch, David
Jopling, Michael
Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon


Davies, Rt. Hn. John (Knutsford)
Joseph, Rt. Hn. Sir Keith
Ridsdale, Julian


d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Sir Henry
Kaberry, Sir Donald
Rodgers, Sir John (Sevenoaks)


Dodds-Parker, Douglas
Kellett, Mrs. Elaine
Royle, Anthony


Douglas-Horne, Rt. Hn. Sir Alec
Kimball, Marcus
Russell, Sir Ronald


Drayson, G. B.
King, Evelyn (Dorset, S.)
Scott, Nicholas


du Cann, Rt. Hn. Edward
King, Tom (Bridgwater)
Shaw, Michael (Sc'b'gh &amp; Whitby)


Dykes, Hugh
Kinsey, J. R.
Shelton, William (Clapham)


Eden, Sir John
Kirk, Peter
Simeons, Charles


Edwards, Nicholas (Pembroke)
Kitson, Timothy
Skeet, T. H. H.


Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carshalton)
Knight, Mrs. Jill
Smith, Dudley (W'wick &amp; L'mington)


Elliott, R. W. (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne, N.)
Knox, David
Soref, Harold


Emery, Peter
Langford-Holt, Sir John
Stanbrook, Ivor


Eyre, Reginald
Legge-Bourke, Sir Harry
Stewart-Smith, D. G. (Belper)


Farr, John
Le Marchant, Spencer
Stodart, Anthony (Edinburgh, W.)


Fenner, Mrs. Peggy
Lloyd, Ian (P'tsm'th, Langstone)
Stoddart-Scott, Col. Sir M.


Finsberg, Geoffrey (Hampstead)
Longden, Gilbert
Stokes, John


Foster, Sir John
Loveridge, John
Sutcliffe, John


Fowler, Norman
Maclean, Sir Fitzroy
Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne)


Fox, Marcus
Macmillan, Maurice (Farnham)
Taylor, Edward M. (G'gow, Cathcart)


Galbraith, Hn. T. G.
McNair-Wilson, Michael
Taylor, Frank (Moss Side)


Glyn, Dr. Alan
Maddan, Martin
Taylor, Robert (Croydon, N.W.)


Godber, Rt. Hn. J. B.
Marten, Neil
Tebbit, Norman







Temple, John M.
Waddington, David
wood, Rt. Hn. Richard


Thatcher, Rt. Hn. Mrs. Margaret
Walker, Rt. Hn. Peter (Worcester)
Woodhouse, Hn. Christopher


Thomas, John Stradling (Monmouth)
Wall, Patrick
Worsley, Marcus


Thomas, Rt. Hn. Peter (Hendon, S.)
Ward, Dame Irene
Wylie, Rt. Hn. N. R.


Thompson, Sir Richard (Croydon, 8.;
Warren, Kenneth
Younger, Hn. George


Tilney, John
Weatherill, Bernard



Trafford, Dr. Anthony
Wells, John (Maidstone)
TELLERS FOR THE AYES:


Turton, Rt. Hn. R. H.
White, Roger (Gravesend)
Mr. Keith Speed and


van Straubenzee, W. R.
Whitelaw, Rt. Hn. William
Mr. Hector Monro.


Vaughan, Dr. Gerard
Wilkinson, John





NOES


Abse, Leo
Hamilton, William (Fife, W)
Milne, Edward (Blyth)


Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.)
Hamling, William
Moyle, Roland


Ashley, Jack
Hannan, William (G'gow, Maryhill)
Mulley, Rt. Hn. Frederick


Bagier, Gordon A. T.
Harper, Joseph
O'Halloran, Michael


Barnes, Michael
Harrison, Walter (Wakefield)
O'Malley, Brian


Barnett, Joel
Hart, Rt. Hn. Judith
Orbach, Maurice


Benn, Rt. Hn Anthony Wedgwood
Hattersley, Roy
Orme, Stanley


Bennett, James (Glasgow, Bridgeton)
Healey, Rt. Hn. Denis
Oswald, Thomas


Bishop, E. S.
Heffer, Eric S.
Parry, Robert (Liverpool, Exchange)


Blenkinsop, Arthur
Horam, John
Pavitt, Laurie


Boardman, H. (Leigh)
Howell, Denis (Small Hearth)
Peart, Rt. Hn. Fred


Booth, Albert
Hughes, Rt. Hn. Cledwyn (Anglesey)
Pendry, Tom


Boyden, James (Bishop Auckland)
Hunter, Adam
Pentland, Norman


Bradley, Tom
Jenkins, Hugh (Putney)
Prescott, John


Brown, Hugh D. (G'gow, Provan)
Jenkins, Rt. Hn. Roy (Stechford)
Price, J. T. (Westhoughton)


Buchan, Norman
Johnson, Carol (Lewisham, S.)
Probert, Arthur


Butler, Mrs. Joyce (Wood Green)
Johnson, James (K'ston-on-Hull, W.)
Reed, D. (Sedgefield)


Campbell, I. (Dunbartonshire, W.)
Johnson, Walter (Derby, S.)
Rhodes, Geoffrey


Carmichael, Neil
Jones, Barry (Flint, E.)
Roberts, Albert (Normanton)


Carter, Ray (Birmingh'm, Northfield)
Jones, Dan (Burnley)
Robertson, John (Paisley)


Carter-Jones, Lewis (Eccles)
Jones, Rt. Hn. Sir Elwyn(W. Ham, S.)
Roderick, Caerwyn E (Br'c'n &amp; R'dnor)


Castle, Rt. Hn. Barbara
Jones, Gwynoro (Carmarthen)
Roper, John


Cocks, Michael (Bristol, S.)
Judd, Frank
Ross, Rt. Hn. William (Kilmarnock)


Cohen, Stanley
Kaufman, Gerald
Sheldon, Robert (Ashton-under-Lyne)


Concannon, J. D.
Kelley, Richard
Shore, Rt. Hn. Peter (Stepney)


Conlan, Bernard
Lambie, David
Skinner, Dennis


Cox, Thomas (Wandsworth, C.)
Lamond, James
Smith, John (Lanarkshire, N.)


Dalyell, Tam
Latham, Arthur
Spriggs, Leslie


Davidson, Arthur
Lawson, George
Stallard, A. W.


Davies, Denzil (Llanelly)
Leadbitter, Ted
Strang, Gavin


Davies, Ifor (Gower)
Lee, Rt. Hn. Frederick
Summerskill, Hn. Dr. Shirley


Deakins, Eric
Leonard, Dick
Swain, Thomas


Delargy, H. J.
Lector, Miss Joan
Thomas, Rt. Hn. George (Cardiff, W.)


Dempsey, James
Lewis, Arthur (W. Ham N.)
Tuck, Raphael


Doig, Peter
Lewis, Ron (Carlisle)
Urwin, T. W.


Dormand, J. D.
Loughlin, Charles
Wainwright, Edwin


Douglas-Mum, Bmce
Lyon, Alexander W. (York)
Wallace, George


Edwards, William (Merioneth)
Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson
Watkins, David


Ellis, Tom
McElhone, Frank
Wellbeloved, James


English, Michael
McGuire, Michael
White, James (Glasgow, Pollok)


Evans, Fred
Mackie, John
Whitehead, Phillip


Fletcher, Raymond (Ilkeston)
Maclennan, Robert
Wiley, Rt. Hn. Frederick


Foley, Maurice
McNamara, J. Kevin
Williams, Alan (Swansea)


Gilbert, Dr. John
MacPherson, Malcolm
Williams, W. T. (Warrington)


Golding, John
Marquand, David



Gordon Walker, Rt. Hn. P. C.
Mason, Rt. Hn. Roy
TELLERS FOR THE NOES:


Grant, George (Morpeth)
Meacher, Michael
Mr. Donald Coleman and


Griffiths, Eddie (Brightside)
Mellish, Rt. Hn. Robert
Mr. Ernest G. Perry.


Griffiths, Will (Exchange)
Mikardo, Ian

Division No. 319.]
AYES
[8.39 a.m.


Adtey, Robert
Bray, Ronald
Corfield, Rt. Hn. Frederick


Alison, Michael (Barkston Ash)
Brewis, John
Costain, A. P.


Amery, Rt. Hn. Julian
Brinton, Sir Tatton
Critchley, Julian


Atkins, Humphrey
Brocklebank-Fowler, Christopher
Crouch, David


Batsford, Brian
Brown, Sir Edward (Bath)
Davies, Rt. Hn. John (Knutsford)


Beamish, Col. Sir Tufton
Bullus, Sir Eric
d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Sir Henry


Bennett, Sir Frederic (Torquay)
Burden, F. A.
Dodds-Parker, Douglas


Bennett, Dr. Reginald (Gosport)
Butler, Adam (Bosworth)
Douglas-Home, Rt. Hn. Sir Alec


Benyon, W.
Cary, Sir Robert
Drayson, G. B.


Biffen, John
Chapman, Sydney
du Cann, Rt. Hn. Edward


Body, Richard
Chichester-Clark, R.
Dykes, Hugh


Boscawen, Robert
Churchill, W. S.
Eden, Sir John


Bottom, Sir Clive
Clark, William (Surrey, E.)
Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carshalton)


Bowden, Andrew
Cockeram, Eric
Elliott, R. W. (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne, N.)


Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hn. John
Cooke, Robert
Emery, Peter


Braine, Bernard
Cordle, John
Eyre, Reginald







Farr, John
King, Tom (Bridgwater)
Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon


Fell, Anthony
Kinsey, J. R.
Ridsdale, Julian


Fenner, Mrs. Peggy
Kirk, Peter
Roberts, Michael (Cardiff, N.)


Finsberg, Geoffrey (Hampstcad)
Kitson, Timothy
Rodgers, Sir John (Sevenoaks)


Fletcher-Cooke, Charles
Knight, Mrs. Jill
Rossi, Hugh (Hornsey)


Foster, Sir John
Knox, David
Royle, Anthony


Fowler, Norman
Langford-Holt, Sir John
Russell, Sir Ronald


Fox, Marcus
Legge-Bourke, Sir Harry
Scott, Nicholas


Galbraith, Hn. T. G.
Le Marchant, Spencer
Shaw, Michael (Sc'b'gh &amp; Whitby)


Glyn, Dr. Alan
Lloyd, Ian (P'tsm'th, Langstone)
Shelton, William (Clapham)


Godber, lit. Hn. J. B.
Longden, Gilbert
Simeons, Charles


Goodhart, Philip
Loveridge, John
Skeet, T. H. H.


Goodhew, Victor
Maclean, Sir Fitzroy
Smith, Dudley (W'wick &amp; L'mngton)


Gower, Raymond
Macmillan, Maurice (Farnham)
Soref, Harold


Gray, Hamish
McNair-Wilson, Michael
Speed, Keith


Green, Alan
Maddan, Martin
Spence, John


Grieve, Percy
Marten, Neil
Stanbrook, Ivor


Grylls, Michael
Mather, Carol
Stewart-Smith, D. G. (Belper)


Gummer, Selwyn
Maude, Angus
Stodart, Anthony (Edinburgh, W.)


Gurden, Harold
Maudling, Rt. Hn. Reginald
Stokes, John


Hall, Miss Joan (Keighley)
Mawby, Ray
Sutcliffe, John


Hall, John (Wycombe)
Maxwell'Hyslop, R. J.
Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne)


Hall-Davies, A. G. F.
Meyer, Sir Anthony
Taylor, Edward M.(G'gow, Cathcart)


Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury)
Moate, Roger
Taylor, Frank (Moss Side)


Hannam, John (Exeter)
Molyneaux, James
Taylor, Robert (Croydon, N. W.)


Harrison, Col. Sir Harwood (Eye)
Monks, Mrs. Connie
Tebbit, Norman


Hastings, Stephen
Monro, Hector
Temple, John M.


Hay, John
Montgomery, Fergus
Thatcher, Rt. Hn. Mrs. Margaret


Hayhoe, Barney
Morgan, Geraint (Denbigh)
Thomas, John stradling (Monmouth)


Heath, Rt. Hn. Edward
Mudd, David
Thompson, Sir Richard (Croydon, S.)


Hicks, Robert
Murton, Oscar
Tilney, John


Higgins, Terence L.
Nabarro, Sir Gerald
Trafford, Dr. Anthony


Hill, John E. B. (Norfolk, S.)
Neave, Airey
Turton, Rt. Hn. R. H.


Hill, James (Southampton, Test)
Nicholls, Sir Harmar
Vaughan, Dr. Gerard


Holland, Philip
Normanton, Tom
Waddington, David


Hordern, Peter
Nott, John
Walker, Rt. Hn. Peter (Worcester)


Hornsby-Smith, Rt. Hn. Dame Patricia
Oppenheim, Mrs. Sally
Wall, Patrick


Howell, David (Guildford)
Owen, Idris (Stockport, N.)
Ward, Dame Irene


Hutchison, Michael Clark
Page, John (Harrow, W.)
Warren, Kenneth


Iremonger, T. L.
Parkinson, Cecil (Enfield, W.)
Wells, John (Maidstone)


James, David
Peyton, Rt. Hn. John
White, Roger (Gravesend)


Jenkin, Patrick (Woodford)
Pike, Miss Mervyn
Whitelaw, Rt. Hn. William


Jessel, Toby
Pink, R. Bonner
Wilkinson, John


Johnson Smith, G. (E. Grinstead)
Pounder, Rafton
Wood, Rt. Hn. Richard


Jopling, Michael
Price, David (Eastleigh)
Woodhouse, Hn. Christopher


Joseph, Rt. Hn. Sir Keith
Proudfoot, Wilfred
Worsley, Marcus


Kaberry, Sir Donald
Pym, Rt. Hn. Francis
Wylie, Rt. Hn. N. R.


Kellett, Mrs. Elaine
Quennell, Miss J. M.
Younger, Hn. George


Kershaw, Anthony
Rawlinson, Rt. Hn. Sir Peter
TELLERS FOR THE AYES:


Kimball, Marcus
Reed, Laurance (Bolton, E.)
Mr. Bernard Weatherill and


King, Evelyn (Dorset, S.)
Rees-Davies, W. R.
Mr. Paul Hawkins.




NOES


Abse, Leo
Deakins, Erie
Hughes, Rt. Hn. Cledwyn (Anglesey)


Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.)
Delargy, H. J.
Hunter, Adam


Ashley, Jack
Dempsey, James
Jenkins, Hugh (Putney)


Bagier, Gordon A. T.
Doig, Peter
Jenkins, Rt. Hn. Roy (Stechford)


Barnett, Joel
Douglas-Mann, Bruce
Johnson, Carol (Lewisham, S.)


Benn, Rt. Hn Anthony Wedgwood
Edwards, Robert (Bilston)
Johnson, James (K'ston-on-Hull, W.)


Bennett, James (Glasgow, Bridgeten)
Edwards, William (Merioneth)
Johnson, Walter (Derby, S.)


Bishop, E. S.
Ellis, Tom
Jones, Barry (Flint, E.)


Blenkinsop, Arthur
English, Michael
Jones, Dan (Burnley)


Boardman, H. (Leigh)
Evans, Fred
Jones, Rt. Hn. Sir Elwyn (W. Ham, S.)


Booth, Albert
Fletcher, Raymond (Ilkeston)
Jones, Cwynoro (Carmarthen)


Boyden, James (Bishop Auckland)
Foley, Maurice
Judd, Frank


Bradley, Tom
Gilbert, Dr. John
Kaufman, Gerald


Brown, Hugh D. (G'gow, Provan)
Golding, John
Kelley, Richard


Buchan, Norman
Gordon Walker, fit. Hn. P. C.
Kinnock, Neil


Butler, Mrs. Joyce (Wood Green)
Grant, George (Morpeth)
Lambie, David


Campbell, I. (Dunbartonshire, W.)
Griffiths, Eddie (Brightside)
Lamond, James


Carmichael, Neil
Griffiths, Will (Exchange)
Lawson, George


Carter-Jones, Lewis (Eecles)
Hamilton, William (Fife, W.)
Leadbitter, Ted


Castle, Rt. Hn. Barbara
Hamling, William
Lee, Rt. Hn. Frederick


Cocks, Michael (Bristol, S.)
Hannan, William (G'gow, Maryhill)
Leonard, Dick


Cohen, Stanley
Harper, Joseph
Lector, Miss Joan


Concannon, J, D.
Harrison, Walter (Wakefield)
Lewis, Arthur (W. Ham, N.)


Conlan, Bernard
Hart, Rt. Hn. Judith
Lewis, Ron (Carlisle)


Cox, Thomas (Wandsworth, C.)
Hatterstey, Boy
Loughlin, Charles


Dalyell, Tam
Healey, Rt. Hn. Denis
Lyon, Alexander W. (York)


Davidson, Arthur
Heffer, Eric S.
Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson


Davies, Denzil (Llanelly)
Horam, John
McElhone, Frank


Davies, Ifor (Gower)
Howell, Denis (Small Heath)
McGuire, Michael







Mackie, John
Peart, Rt. Hn. Fred
Strang, Gavin


Maclennan, Robert
Pendry, Tom
Summerskill, Hn. Dr. Shirley


McNamara, J. Kevin
Pentland, Norman
Swain, Thomas


MacPherson, Malsolm
Prescott, John
Thomas, Rt. Hn. George (Cardiff, W.)


Marquand, David
Price, J. T. (Westhoughton)
Tuck, Raphael


Mason, Rt. Hn. Roy
Probert, Arthur
Urwin, T. W.


Meacher, Michael
Reed, D. (Sedgefield)
Wainwright, Edwin


Mellish, Rt. Hn. Robert
Rhodes, Geoffrey
Wallace, George


Mikardo, Ian
Roberts, Albert (Normanton)
Watkins, David


Milne, Edward (Blyth)
Robertson, John (Paisley)
Wellbeloved, James


Moyle, Roland
Roderick, Caerwyn E.(Br'c'n &amp; R'dnor)
White, James (Glasgow, Pollok)


Mulley, Rt. Hn. Frederick
Roper, John
Whitehead, Philip


O'Halloran, Michael
Ross, Rt. Hn. William (Kilmarnock)
Whitlock, William


O'Malley, Brian
Sheldon, Robert (Ashton-under-Lyne)
Willey, Rt. Hn. Frederick


Orbach, Maurice
Shore, Rt. Hn. Peter (Stepney)
Williams, Alan (Swansea, W.)


Orme, Stanley
Short, Mrs. Renée (W'hampton, N. E.)
Williams, W. T. (Warrington)


Oswald, Thomas
Skinner, Dennis



Owen, Dr. David (Plymouth, Sutton)
Smith, John (Lanarkshire, N.)
TELLERS FOR THE NOES:


Parry, Robert (Liverpool, Exchange)
Spriggs, Leslie
Mr. Donald Coleman and


Pavitt, Laurie
Stallard, A. W.
Mr. Ernest G. Perry.

Division No. 320.]
AYES
[8.50 a.m.


Adley, Robert
Glyn, Dr. Alan
Macmillan, Maurice (Famham)


Alison, Michael (Barkston Ash)
Godber, Rt. Hn. J. B.
McNair-Wilson, Michael


Amery, Rt. Hn. Julian
Goodhart, Philip
Maddan, Martin


Atkins, Humphrey
Goodhew, Victor
Marten, Neil


Batsford, Brian
Gower, Raymond
Mather, Carol


Beamish, Col. Sir Tufton
Gray, Hamish
Maude, Angus


Bennett, sir Frederic (Torquay)
Green, Alan
Maudling, Rt. Hn. Reginald


Bennett, Dr. Reginald (Gosport)
Grieve, Percy
Mawby, Ray


Benyon, W.
Grylls, Michael
Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J.


Biffen, John
Cummer, Selwyn
Meyer, Sir Anthony


Body, Richard
Gurden, Harold
Moate, Roger


Boscawen, Robert
Hall, Miss Joan (Keighley)
Molyneux, James


Bossom, Sir Clive
Hall, John (Wycombe)
Monks, Mrs. Connie


Bowden, Andrew
Hall-Davis, A. G. F.
Montgomery, Fergus


Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hn. John
Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury)
More, Jasper


Braine, Bernard
Hannam, John (Exeter)
Morgan, Geraint (Denbigh)


Bray, Ronald
Harrison, Col. Sir Harwood (Eye)
Mudd, David


Brewis, John
Harvey, Sir Arthur Vere
Murton, Oscar


Brinton, Sir Tatton
Haselhurst, Alan
Nabarro, Sir Gerald


Brocklebank-Fowler, Christopher
Hastings, Stephen
Neave, Airey


Brown, Sir Edward (Bath)
Hawkins, Paul
Nicholls, Sir Harmar


Bryan, Paul
Hay, John
Normanton, Tom


Bullus, Sir Eric
Hayhoe, Barney
Nott, John


Burden, F. A.
Heath, Rt. Hn. Edward
Oppenheim, Mrs. Sally


Butler, Adam (Bosworth)
Hicks, Robert
Owen, Idris (Stockport, N.)


Campbell, Rt. Hn. G. (Moray &amp; Nairn)
Higgins, Terence L.
Page, John (Harrow, W.)


Cary, Sir Robert
Hill, John E. B. (Norfolk, S.)
Parkinson, Cecil (Enfield, W.)


Chapman, Sydney
Hill, James (Southampton, Test)
Peyton, Rt. Hn. John


Chichester-Clark, R.
Holland, Philip
Pike, Miss Mervyn


Churchill, W. S.
Hordern, Peter
Pink, R. Bonner


clark, William (Surrey, E.)
Hornsby-Smith, Rt. Hn, Dame Patricia
Pounder, Rafton


Cockeram, Eric
Howell, David (Guildford)
Price, David (Eastleigh)


Cooke, Robert
Hutchison, Michael Clark
Proudfoot, Wilfred


Cordle, John
Iremonger, T. L.
Pym, Rt. Hn. Francis


Corfield, Rt. Hn. Frederick
James, David
Quennell, Miss J. M.


Critchley, Julian
Jenkin, Patrick (Woodford)
Rawlinson, Rt. Hn. Sir Peter


Crouch, David
Jesset, Toby
Reed, Laurance (Bolton, E.)


Davies, Rt. Hn. John (Knutsford)
Johnson Smith, G. (E. Grinstead)
Rees-Davies, W. R.


d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Sir Henry
Jopling, Michael
Rhys William, Sir Brandon


Dodds-Parker, Douglas
Joseph, Rt. Hn. Sir Keith
Ridsdale, Julian


Douglas-Home, Rt. Hn. Sir Alec
Kaberry, Sir Donald
Roberts, Michael (Cardiff, N.)


Drayson, G. B.
Kellett, Mrs. Elaine
Rodgers, Sir John (Sevenoaks)


du Cann, Rt. Hn. Edward
Kershaw, Anthony
Rossi, Hugh (Hornsey)


Dykes, Hugh
Kimball, Marcus
Royle, Anthony


Eden, Sir John
King, Evelyn (Dorset, 8.)
Scott, Nicholas


Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carshatton)
King, Tom (Bridgwater)
Shaw, Michael (S'b'gh &amp; Whitby)


Elliott, Rt. W. (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne, N.)
Kinsey, J. R.
Shelton, William (Clapham)


Emery, Peter
Kirk, Peter
Simeons, Charles


Eyre, Reginald
Kitson, Timothy
Sheet, T. H. H.


Farr, John
Knight, Mrs. Jill
Smith, Dudley (W'wick &amp; L'mington)


Fenner, Mrs. Peggy
Knox, David
Soref, Harold


Finsberg, Geoffrey (Hampstead)
Legge-Bourke, Sir Harry
Spence, John


Fletcher-Cooke, Charles
Le Marchant, Spencer
Stanbrook, Ivor


Foster, Sir John
Lloyd, Ian (P'tsm'th, Langstone)
Stewart-Smith, D. G. (Belper)


Fowler, Norman
Longden, Gilbert
Stodart, Anthony (Edinburgh, W.)


Fox, Marcus
Loveridge, John
Stoddart-Scott, Col. Sir M.


Galbraith, Hn. T. G.
Maclean, Sir Fitzroy
Stokes, John







Sutcliffe, John
Trafford, Dr. Anthony
White, Roger (Gravesend)


Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne)
Turton, Rt. Hn. R. H.
Whitelaw, Rt. Hn.. William


Taylor, Edward M. (G'gow, Cathcart)
Vaughan, Dr. Gerard
Wilkinson, John


Taylor, Frank (Moss Side)
Vickers, Dame Joan
Wood, Rt. Hn. Richard


Taylor, Robert (Croydon, N. W.)
Waddington, David
Woodhouse, Hn. Christopher


Tebbit, Norman
Walker, Rt. Hn. Peter (Worcester)
Worsley, Marcus


Temple, John M.
Wall, Patrick
Younger, Hn. George


Thatcher, Rt. Hn. Mrs. Margaret
Ward, Dams Irene
TELLERS FOR THE AYES:


Thomas, John Stradling (Monmouth)
Warren, Kenneth
Mr. Walter Clegg and


Thompson, Sir Richard (Croydon, S.)
Weatherill, Bernard
Mr. Tim Fortescue.


Tilney, John
Wells, John (Maidstone)





NOES


Abse, Leo
Hannan, William (G'gow, Maryhill)
Milne, Edward (Blyth)


Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.)
Harper, Joseph
Moyle, Roland


Ashley, Jack
Harrison, Walter (Wakefield)
Mulley, Rt. Hn. Frederick


Bagier, Gordon A. T.
Hart, Rt. Hn. Judith
O'Halloran, Michael


Barnett, Joel
Hattersely, Roy
O'Malley, Brian


Benn, Rt. Hn. Anthony Wedgwood
Healley, Rt. Hn. Denis
Orbach, Maurice


Bennett, James (Glasgow, Bridgeton)
Heffer, Eric S.
Orme, Stanley


Bishop, E. S.
Horam, John
Oswald, Thomas


Blenkinsop, Arthur
Howell, Denis (Small Heath)
Owen, Dr. David (Plymouth, Sutton)


Boardman, H. (Leigh)
Hughes, Rt. Hn. Cledwyn (Anglesey)
Parry, Robert (Liverpool, Exchange)


Booth, Albert
Hunter, Adam
Pavitt, Laurie


Boyden, James (Bishop Auckland)
Jenkins, Hugh (Putney)
Peart, Rt. Hn. Fred


Bradley, Tom
Jenkins, Rt. Hn. Roy (Stechford)
Pendry, Tom


Brown, Hugh D. (G'gow, Provan)
Johnson, Carol (Lewisham, S.)
Pentland, Norman


Buchan, Norman
Johnson, James (K'ston-on-Hull, W.)
Prescott, John


Butler, Adam (Bosworth)
Johnson, Walter (Derby, S.)
Price, J. T. (Westhoughton)


Campbell, I (Dunbartonshire, W.)
Jones, Barry (Flint, E.)
Probert, Arthur


Carmichael, Neil
Jones, Dan (Burnley)
Rhodes, Geoffrey


Carter-Jones, Lewis (Eccles)
Jones, Rt. Hn. Sir Elwyn(W. Ham, S.)
Roberts, Albert (Normanton)


Castle, Rt. Hn. Barbara
Jones, Gwynoro (Carmarthen)
Robertson, John (Paisley)


Cocks, Michael (Bristol, S.)
Judd, Frank
Roderick, Caerwyn E. (Br'c'n &amp; R'dnor)


Cohen, Stanley
Kaufman, Gerald
Ross, Rt. Hn. William (Kilmarnock)


Concannon, J. D.
Kelley, Richard
Sheldon, Robert (Ashton-under-Lyne)


Conlan, Bernard
Kinnock, Neil
Shore, Rt. Hn. Peter (Stepney)


Dalyell, Tam
Lambie, David
Short, Mrs. Renée (W'hampton, N. E.)


Davidson, Arthur
Lamond, James
Skinner, Dennis


Davies, Denzil (Lianelly)
Lawson, George
Smith, John (Lanarkshire, N.)


Davies, Ifor (Gower)
Leadbitter, Ted
Spriggs, Leslie


Deakins, Eric
Lee, Rt. Hn. Frederick
Stallard, A. W.


Delargy, H. J.
Leonard, Dick
Strang, Gavin


Dempsey, James
Lester, Miss Joan
Summerskill, Hn. Dr. Shirley


Doig, Peter
Lewis, Arthur (W. Ham, N.)
Swain, Thomas


Douglas-Mann, Bruce
Lewis, Ron (Carlisle)
Thomas, Rt. Hn. George (Cardiff,W.)


Edwards, Robert (Bliston)
Loughlin, Charles
Tuck, Raphael


Edwards, William (Merioneth)
Lyon, Alexander W. (York)
Urwin, T. W.


Ellis, Tom
Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson
Wainwright, Edwin


English, Michael
McElhone, Frank
Wallace, George


Evans, Fred
McGuire, Michael
watkins, David


Fletcher, (Raymond (Ilkeston)
Mackie, John
White, James (Glasgow, Pollok)


Foley, Maurice
Maclennan, Robert
Whitehead, Phillip


Golding, John
McNamara, J. Kevin
Whitlock, William


Gordon Walker, Rt. Hn. P. C.
MacPherson, Malcolm
Willey, Rt. Hn. Frederick


Grant, George (Morpeth)
Marquand, David
Williams, Alan (Swansea, W.)


Griffiths, Eddie (Brightside)
Mason, Rt. Hn. Roy
Williams, W. T. (Warrington)


Griffiths, Will (Exchange)
Meacher, Michael
TELLERS FOR THE NOES:


Hamilton, William (Fife, W.)
Mellish, Rt. Hn. Robert
Mr. Donald Coleman and


Harming, William
Mikardo, Ian
Mr. Ernest G. Perry.

Division No. 321.]
AYES
[9.02 a.m.


Adley, Robert
Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hn. John
Cordis, John


Alison, Michael (Barkston Ash)
Brown, Sir Edward (Bath)
Corfield, Rt. Hn. Frederick


Amery, Rt. Hn. Julian
Bryan, Paul
Critchley, Julian


Atkins, Humphrey
Bullus, Sir Eric
Crouch, David


Baker, W. H. K. (Banff)
Burden, F. A.
Davies, Rt. Hn. John (Knutsford)


Batsford, Brian
Butler, Adam (Bosworth)
d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Sir Henry


Beamish, Col. Sir Tufton
Campbell, Rt. Hn. G.(Moray &amp; Nairn)
Dodds-Parker, Douglas


Bennett, Sir Frederic (Torquay)
Cary, Sir Robert
Douglas-Home, Rt. Hn. Sir Alec


Bennett, Dr. Reginald (Gosport)
Chapman, Sydney
Drayson, G. B.


Benyon, W.
Chichester-Clark, R.
du Cann, Rt. Hn. Edward


Biffen, John
Churchill, W. 8.
Dykes, Hugh


Body, Richard
Clark, William (Surrey, E.)
Eden, Sir John


Boscawen, Robert
Clegg, Walter
Edwards, Nicholas (Pembroke)


Bossom, Sir Clive
Cockeram, Eric
Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carshalton)


Bowden, Andrew
Cooke, Robert
Elliott, R. W. (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne, N.)







Emery, Peter
Kellett, Mrs. Elaine
Reed, Laurance (Bolton, E.)


Eyre, Reginald
Kershaw, Anthony
Rees-Davies, W. R.


Farr, John
Kimball, Marcus
Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon


Fell, Anthony
King, Evelyn (Dorset, S.)
Ridsdale, Julian


Fenner, Mrs. Peggy
King, Tom (Bridgwater)
Roberts, Michael (Cardiff, N.)


Finsberg, Geoffrey (Hampstead)
Kinsey, J. R.
Rodgers, Sir John (Sevenoaks)


Fletcher-Cooke, Charles
Kirk, Peter
Rossi, Hugh (Hornsey)


Fortescue, Tim
Kitson, Timothy
Royfe, Anthony


Foster, Sir John
Knight, Mrs. Jill
Russell, Sir Ronald


Fowler, Norman
Knox, David
Scott, Nicholas


Fox, Marcus
Legge-Bourke, Sir Harry
Shaw, Michael (Sc'b'gh &amp; Whitby)


Gatbraith, Hn. T. G.
Le Marchant, Spencer
Shelton, William (Clapham)


Glyn, Dr. Alan
Lloyd, Ian (P'tsm'th, Langstone)
Simeons, Charles


Codber, Rt. Hn. J. B.
Loveridge, John
Skeet, T. H. H.


Goodhart, Philip
Maclean, Sir Fitzroy
Smith, Dudley (W'wick &amp; L'mington)


Gower, Raymond
McMaster, Stanley
Soref, Harold


Gray, Hamish
Macmillan, Maurice (Farnham)
Spence, John


Green, Alan
Maddan, Martin
Stewart-Smith, D. G. (Belper)


Grieve, Percy
Marten, Neil
Stodart, Anthony (Edinburgh, W.)


Grylls, Michael
Mather, Carol
Stoddart-Scott, Col. Sir M.


Gummer, Selwyn
Maude, Angus
Stokes, John


Gurden, Harold
Maudling, Rt. Hn. Reginald
Sutcliffe, John


Hall, Miss Joan (Keighley)
Mawby, Ray
Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne)


Hall, John (Wycombe)
Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J.
Taylor, Edward M. (G'gow, Cathcart)


Hall-Davis, A. G. F.
Meyer, Sir Anthony
Taylor, Frank (Moss Side)


Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury)
Moate, Roger
Taylor, Robert (Croydon, N. W.)


Hannam, John (Exeter)
Molyneaux, James
Tebbit, Norman


Harrison, Col. Sir Harwood (Eye)
Monks, Mrs. Connie
Temple, John M.


Harvey, Sir Arthur Vere
Monro, Hector
Thatcher, Rt. Hn. Mrs. Margaret


Haselhurst, Alan
Montgomery, Fergus
Thomas, John Stradling (Monmouth)


Hastings, Stephen
More, Jasper
Thompson, Sir Richard (Croydon, S.)


Hawkins, Paul
Morgan, Geraint (Denbigh)
Tilney, John


Hay, John
Morgan-Giles, Rear-Adm.
Trafford, Dr. Anthony


Hayhoe, Barney
Mudd, David
Turton, Rt. Hn. R. H.


Heath, Rt. Hn. Edward
Murton, Oscar
Waddington, David


Hicks, Robert
Nabarro, Sir Gerald
Walker, Rt. Hn. Peter (Worcester)


Higgins, Terence L.
Neave, Airey
Wall, Patrick


Hill, John E. B. (Norfolk, S.)
Nicholls, Sir Harmar
Ward, Dame Irene


Hill, James (Southampton, Test)
Normanton, Tom
Warren, Kenneth


Holland, Philip
Nott, John
Weatherill, Bernard


Hordern, Peter
Oppenheim, Mrs. Sally
Wells, John (Maidstone)


Hornsby-Smith, Rt. Hn. Dame Patricia
Owen, Idris (Stockport, N.)
White, Roger (Gravesend)


Howell, David (Guildford)
Page, Graham (Crosby)
Whitelaw, Rt. Hn. William


Hutchison, Michael Clark
Page, John (Harrow, W.)
Wilkinson, John


Iremonger, T. L.
Parkinson, Cecil (Enfield, W.)
Wood, Rt. Hn. Richard


James, David
Peyton, Rt. Hn. John
Woodhouse, Hn. Christopher


Jenkin, Patrick (Woodford)
Pike, Miss Mervyn
Worsley, Marcus


Jessel, Toby
Pounder, Rafton
Wylie, Rt. Hn. N. R.


Johnson Smith, G. (E. Grinstead)
Price, David (Eastleigh)
Younger, Hn. George


Jones, Arthur (Northants, S.)
Proudfoot, Wilfred
TELLERS FOR THE AYES:


Jopling, Michael
Pym, Rt. Hn. Francis
Mr. Victor Goodhew and


Joseph, Rt. Hn. Sir Keith
Quennell, Miss J. M.
Mr. Keith Speed.


Kaberry, Sir Donald
Rawlinson, Rt. Hn. Sir Peter





NOES


Abse, Leo
Deakins, Eric
Horam, John


Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.)
Delargy, H. J.
Howell, Denis (Small Heath)


Ashley, Jack
Dempsey, James
Hughes, Rt. Hn. Cledwyn (Anglesey)


Bagier, Gordon A. T.
Doig, Peter
Hunter, Adam


Barnett, Joel
Dormand, J. D.
Jenkins, Hugh (Putney)


Bonn, Rt. Hn. Anthony Wedgwood
Douglas-Mann, Bruce
Jenkins, Rt. Hn. Roy (Stechford)


Bennett, James (Glasgow, Bridgeton)
Edwards, Robert (Bliston)
Johnson, Carol (Lewisham, S.)


Bishop, E. S.
Edwards, William (Merioneth)
Johnson, James (K'ston-on-Hull, W.)


Blenkinsop, Arthur
Ellis, Tom
Johnson, Walter (Derby, S.)


Boardman, Tom (Leicester, S.W.)
English, Michael
Jones, Barry (Flint, E.)


Booth, Albert
Evans, Fred
Jones, Dan (Burnley)


Boyden, James (Bishop Auckland)
Fletcher, Raymond (Ilkeston)
Jones, Rt. Hn. Sir Elwyn(W. Ham, S.)


Bradley, Tom
Foley, Maurice
Jones, Gwynoro (Carmarthen)


Brown, Hugh D. (G'gow, Provan)
Golding, John
Judd, Frank


Buchan, Norman
Gordon Walker, Rt. Hn. P. C.
Kaufman, Gerald


Butler, Mrs. Joyce (Wood Green)
Grant, George (Morpeth)
Kelley, Richard


Campbell, I. (Dunbartonshire, W.)
Griffiths, Eddie (Brightside)
Kinnock, Neil


Carmichael, Neil
Griffiths, Will (Exchange)
Lambie, David


Carter-Jones, Lewis (Eccles)
Hamilton, William (Fife, W.)
Lamond, James


Cocks, Michael (Bristol, S.)
Hamling, William
Lawson, George


Cohen, Stanley
Hannan, William (G'gow, Maryhill)
Leadbitter, Ted


Concannon, J. D.
Harper, Joseph
Lee, Rt. Hn. Frederick


Conlan, Bernard
Harrison, Walter (Wakefield)
Lestor, Miss Joan


Dalyell, Tam
Hart, Rt. Hn. Judith
Lewis, Arthur (W. Ham, N.)


Davidson, Arthur
Hattersley, Roy
Lewis, Ron (Carlisle)


Davies, Denzil (Lianelly)
Healey, Rt. Hn. Denis
Loughlin, Charles


Davies, Ifor (Gower)
Heffer, Eric S.
Lyon, Alexander W. (York)







Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson
Owen, Dr. David (Plymouth, Sutton)
Stallard, A. W.


McElhone, Frank
Parry, Robert (Liverpool, Exchange)
Summerskill, Hn. Dr. Shirley


McGuire, Michael
Pavitt, Laurie
Swain, Thomas


Mackie, John
Peart, At. Hn. Fred
Thomas, Rt. Hn. George (Cardiff. W.)


Maclennan, Robert
Pendry, Tom
Tuck, Raphael


McNamara, J. Kevin
Pentland, Norman
Urwin, T. W.


MacPherson, Malcolm
Prescott, John
Wainwright, Edwin


Marquand, David
Price, J. T. (Wetthoughton)
Wallace, George


Mason, Rt. Hn. Roy
Probert, Arthur
Watkins, David


Meacher, Michael
Rhodes, Geoffrey
Weitzman, David


Mellish, Rt. Hn. Robert
Richard, Ivor
White, James (Glasgow, Pollok)


Mikardo, Ian
Roberts, Albert (Normanton)
Whitehead, Phillip


Milne, Edward (Blyth)
Robertson, John (Paisley)
Whitlock, William


Moyle, Roland
Roderick, Caerwyn E.(Br'c'n &amp; R'dnor)
Willey, Rt. Hn. Frederick


Mulley, Rt. Hn. Frederick
Ross, Rt. Hn. William (Kilmarnock)
Williams, Alan (Swansea, W.)


O'Halloran, Michael
Sheldon, Robert (Ashton-under-Lyne)
Williams, W. T. (Warrington)


O'Malley, Brian
Shore, Rt. Hn. Peter (Stepney)



Oram, Bert
Short, Mrs. Renée (W'hampton, N. E.)
TELLERS FOR THE NOES:


Orbach, Maurice
Skinner, Dennis
Mr. Ernest G. Perry and


Orme, Stanley
Smith, John (Lanarkshire, N.)
Mr. Donald Coleman.


Oswald, Thomas
Spriggs, Leslie

Division No. 322.]
AYES
[9.14 a.m.


Adley, Robert
Fletcher-Cooke, Charles
Knight, Mrs. Jill


Alison, Michael (Barkston Ash)
Fortescue, Tim
Knox, David


Amery, Rt. Hn. Julian
Foster, Sir John
Legge-Bourke, Sir Harry


Atkins, Humphrey
Fowler, Norman
Le Marchant, Spencer


Baker, W. H. K. (Banff)
Fox, Marcus
Lloyd, Ian (P'tsm'th, Langstone)


Batsford, Brian
Galbraith, Hn. T. G.
Longden, Gilbert


Beamish, Col. Sir Tufton
Glyn, Dr. Alan
Loveridge, John


Bennett, Sir Frederic (Torquay)
Godber, Rt. Hn. J. B.
Maclean, Sir Fitzroy


Bennett, Dr. Reginald (Gosport)
Goodhart, Philip
McMaster, Stanley


Benyon, W.
Goodhew, Victor
Macmillan, Maurice (Farnham)


Biffen, John
Gower, Raymond
McNair-Wilson, Michael


Body, Richard
Gray, Hamish
Maddan, Martin


Boscawen, Robert
Green, Alan
Marten, Neil


Bossom, Sir Clive
Grieve, Percy
Mather, Carol


Bowden, Andrew
Griffiths, Eldon (Bury St. Edmunds)
Maude, Angus


Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hn. John
Grylls, Michael
Maudling, Rt. Hn. Reginald


Braine, Bernard
Gummer, Selwyn
Mawby, Ray


Bray, Ronald
Gurden, Harold
Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J.


Brewis, John
Hall, Miss Joan (Keighley)
Meyer, Sir Anthony


Brinton, Sir Tatton
Hall, John (Wycombe)
Mills, Stratton (Belfast, N.)


Brocklebank-Fowler, Christopher
Hall-Davis, A. G. F.
Moate, Roger


Brown, Sir Edward (Bath)
Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury)
Molyneaux, James


Bryan, Paul
Hannam, John (Exeter)
Monks, Mrs. Connie


Bullus, Sir Eric
Harrison, Col. Sir Harwood (Eye)
Monro, Hector


Burden, F. A.
Harvey, Sir Arthur Vere
Montgomery, Fergus


Butler, Adam (Bosworth)
Haselhurst, Alan
More, Jasper


Campbell, Rt. Hn. G. (Moray &amp; Nairn)
Hastings, Stephen
Morgan, Geraint (Denbigh)


Cary, Sir Robert
Hay, John
Morgan-Giles, Rear-Adm.


Chapman, Sydney
Hayhoe, Barney
Mudd, David


Chichester-Clark, R.
Heath, Rt. Hn. Edward
Murton, Oscar


Churchill, W. S.
Hicks, Robert
Nabarro, Sir Gerald


Clark William (Surrey, E.)
Higgins, Terence L.
Neave, Airey


Clegg, Walter
Hill, John E. B. (Norfolk, S.)
Nicholls, Sir Harmar


Cooke, Robert
Hill, James (Southampton, Test)
Normanton, Tom


Cooper, A. E.
Holland, Philip
Nott, John


Cordle, John
Hordern, Peter
Oppenheim, Mrs. Sally


Corfield, Rt. Hn. Frederick
Hornsby-Smith, Rt. Hn. Dame Patricia
Owen, Idris (Stockport, N.)


Critchley, Julian
Howell, David (Guildford)
Page, Graham (Crosby)


Crouch, David
Hutchison, Michael Clark
Page, John (Harrow, W.)


Davies, Rt. Hn. John (Knutsford)
Iremonger, T. L.
Parkinson, Cecil (Enfield, W.)


d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Sir Henry
James, David
Peyton, Rt. Hn. John


Dodds-Parker, Douglas
Jenkin, Patrick (Woodford)
Pike, Miss Mervyn


Douglas-Home, Rt. Hn. Sir Alec
Jessel, Toby
Pounder, Rafton


Drayson, G. B.
Johnson Smith, C. (E. Grinstead)
Price, David (Eastleigh)


du Cann, Rt. Hn. Edward
Jones, Arthur (Northants, S.)
Proudfoot, Wilfred


Dykes, Hugh
Jopling, Michael
Pym, Rt. Hn. Francis


Eden, Sir John
Joseph, Rt. Hn. Sir Keith
Quennell, Miss J. M.


Edwards, Nicholas (Pembroke)
Kaberry, Sir Donald
Rawlinson, Rt. Hn. Sir Peter


Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carshalton)
Kellett, Mrs. Elaine
Reed, Laurance (Bolton, E.)


Elliott, R. W. (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne, N.)
Kershaw, Anthony
Rees-Davies, W. R.


Emery, Peter
Kimball, Marcus
Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon


Eyre, Reginald
King, Evelyn (Dorset, S.)
Ridley, Hn. Nicholas


Farr, John
King, Tom (Bridgwater)
Ridsdale, Julian


Fell, Anthony
Kinsey, J. R.
Roberts, Michael (Cardiff, N.)


Fenner, Mrs. Peggy
Kirk, Peter
Rodgers, Sir John (Sevenoaks)


Finsberg, Geoffrey (Hampstead)
Kitson, Timothy
Royle, Anthony







Russell, Sir Ronald
Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne)
Warren, Kenneth


Scott, Nicholas
Taylor. Edward M. (G'gow, Cathcart)
Weatherill, Bernard


Sharples, Richard
Taylor, Frank (Moss Side)
Wells, John (Maidstone)


Shaw, Michael (Sc'b'gh &amp; Whitby)
Taylor, Robert (Croydon, N.W.)
White, Roger (Gravesend)


Shelton, William (Clapham)
Tebbit, Norman
Whitetaw, Rt. Hn. William


Simeons, Charles
Temple, John M.
Wilkinson, John


Sheet, T. H. H.
Thatcher, Rt. Hn. Mrs. Margaret
Wood, Rt. Hn. Richard


Smith, Dudley (W'wick &amp; L'mington)
Thomas, John Stradling (Monmouth)
Woodhouse, Hn. Christopher


Soref, Harold
Thompson, Sir Richard (Croydon, S.)
Worsley, Marcus


Speed, Keith
Tilney, John
Wylie, Rt. Hn. N. R.


Spence, John
Turton, Rt. Hn. R. H.
Younger, Hn. George


Stewart-Smith, D. G. (Belper)
Vaughan, Dr. Gerard



Stodart, Anthony (Edinburgh, W.)
Waddington, David
TELLERS FOR THE AYES:


Stoddart-Scott, Col. Sir M.
Walker, Rt. Hn. Peter (Worcester)
Mr. Paul Hawkins and


Stokes, John
Wall, Patrick
Mr. Hugh Rossi.


Sutcliffe, John
Ward, Dame Irene





NOES


Abse, Leo
Harper, Joseph
Oram, Bert


Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.)
Harrison, Walter (Wakefield)
Orbach, Maurice


Ashley, Jack
Hart, Rt. Hn. Judith
Orme, Stanley


Bagier, Gordon A. T.
Hattersley, Roy
Oswald, Thomas


Barnett, Joel
Healey, Rt. Hn. Denis
Owen, Dr. David (Plymouth, Sutton)


Benn, Rt. Hn. Anthony Wedgwood
Heffer, Eric S.
Parker, John (Dagenham)


Bennett, James Glasgow, Bridgeton)
Horam, John
Parry, Robert (Liverpool, Exchange)


Bishop, E. S.
Howell, Denis (Small Heath)
Pavitt, Laurie


Blenkinsop, Arthur
Hughes, Rt. Hn. Cledwyn (Anglesey)
Peart, Rt. Hn. Fred


Boardman, H. (Leigh)
Hunter, Adam
Pendry, Tom


Booth, Albert
Jenkins, Hugh (Putney)
Pentland, Norman


Boyden, James (Bishop Auckland)
Jenkins, Rt. Hn. Roy (Stechford)
Prescott, John


Bradley, Tom
Johnson, Carol (Lewisham, S.)
Price, J. T. (Westhoughton)


Brown, Hugh D. (G'gow, Provan)
Johnson, James (K'ston-on-Hull, W.)
Probert, Arthur


Buchan, Norman
Johnson Walter (Derby, S.)
Proudfoot, Wilfred


Butler, Mrs. Joyce (Wood Green)
Jones, Barry (Flint, E.)
Rhodes, Geoffrey


Campbell, I. (Dunbartonshire, W.)
Jones, Dan (Burnley)
Richard, Ivor


Carmichael, Neil
Jones, Rt. Hn. Sir Elwyn (W. Ham, S.)
Roberts, Albert (Normanton)


Carter, Ray (Birmingham, Northfield)
Jones, Gwynoro (Carmarthen)
Robertson, John (Paisley)


Carter-Jones, Lewis (Eccles)
Judd, Frank
Roderick, Caerwyn E. (Br'c'n &amp; R'nor)


Cocks, Michael (Bristol, S.)
Kaufman, Gerald
Ross, Rt. Hn. William (Kilmarnock)


Cohen, Stanley
Kelley, Richard
Sheldon, Robert (Ashton-under-Lyne)


Concannon, J. D.
Kinnock, Neil
Shore, Rt. Hn. Peter (Stepney)


Conlan, Bernard
Lambie, David
Short, Mrs. Renée (W'hampton, N. E.)


Dalyell, Tam
Lamond, James
Skinner, Dennis


Davidson, Arthur
Lawson, George
Smith, John (Lanarkshire, N.)


Davies, Denzil (Llanelli)
Lee, Rt. Hn. Frederick
Spriggs, Leslie


Davies, Ifor (Cower)
Lestor, Miss Joan
Stallard, A. W.


Deakins, Eric
Lewis, Arthur (W. Ham, N.)
Strauss, Rt. Hn. G. R.


Delargy, H. J.
Lewis, Ron (Carlisle)
Summerskill, Hn. Dr. Shirley


Dempsey, James
Loughlin, Charles
Swain, Thomas


Doig, Peter
Lyon, Alexander W. (York)
Thomas. Rt. Hn. George (Cardiff, W.)


Dormand, J. D.
Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson
Thomas, Jeffrey (Abertillery)


Douglas-Mann, Bruce
McElhone, Frank
Tuck, Raphael


Edwards, Robert (Bilston)
McGuire, Michael
Urwin, T. W.


Edwards, William (Merioneth)
Mackie, John
Wainwright, Edwin


Ellis, Tom
Maclennan, Robert
Wallace, George


English, Michael
McNamara, J. Kevin
Watkins, David


Evans, Fred
MacPherson, Malcolm
Weitzman, David


Fletcher, Raymond (Ilkeston)
Marquand, David
White, James (Glasgow, Pollok)


Foley, Maurice
Mason, Rt. Hn. Roy
Whitehead, Phillip


Golding, John
Meacher, Michael
Whitlock, William


Gordon Walker, Rt. Hn. P. C.
Mellish, Rt. Hn. Robert
Willey, Rt. Hn. Frederick


Grant, George (Morpeth)
Mikardo, Ian
Williams, Alan (Swansea, W.)


Griffiths, Eddie (Brightside)
Milne, Edward (Blyth)
Williams, W. T. (Warrington)


Griffiths, Will (Exchange)
Moyle, Roland



Hamilton, William (Fife, W.)
Mulley, Rt. Hn. Frederick
TELLERS FOR THE NOES:


Hamiing, William
O'Halloran, Michael
Mr. Ernest G. Perry and


Hannam, John (Exeter)
O'Malley, Brian
Mr. Donald Coleman.

Division No. 323.]
AYES
[9.26 a.m.


Adley, Robert
Bennett, Sir Frederic (Torquay)
Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hn. John


Alison, Michael (Barkston Ash)
Bennett, Dr. Reginald (Gosport)
Braine, Bernard


Allason, James (Hemel Hempstead)
Benyon, W.
Bray, Ronald


Amery, Rt. Hn. Julian
Biffen, John
Brewis, John


Astor, John
Biggs-Davison, John
Brinton, Sir Tatton


Atkins, Humphrey
Body, Richard
Brocklebank-Fowler, Christopher


Baker, W. H. K. (Banff)
Boscawen, Robert
Brown, Sir Edward (Bath)


Batsford, Brian
Bossom, Sir Clive
Bryan, Paul


Beamish, Col. Sir Tufton
Bowden, Andrew
Bullus, Sir Eric







Burden, F. A.
Hiley, Joseph
Peyton, Rt. Hn. John


Butler, Adam (Bosworth)
Hill, John E. B. (Norfolk, S.)
Pike, Miss Mervyn


Campbell, Rt. Hn. G. (Moray &amp; Nairn)
Hill, James (Southampton, Test)
Pink, R. Bonner


Cary, Sir Robert
Holland, Philip
Pounder, Rafton


Chapman, Sydney
Hordern, Peter
Price, David (Eastleigh)


Chichester-Clark, R.
Hornsby-Smith. Rt. Hn. Dame Patricia
Prior, Rt. Hn. J. M. L.


Churchill, W. S.
Howell, David (Guildford)
Proudfoot, Wilfred


Clark, William (Surrey, E.)
Hutchison, Michael dark
Pym, Rt. Hn. Francis


Clegg, Walter
Iremonger, T. L.
Quennell, Miss J. M.


Cockeram, Eric
James, David
Rawlinson, Rt. Hn. Sir Peter


Cooke, Robert
Jenkin, Patrick (Woodford)
Reed, Laurance (Bolton, E.)


Cooper, A. E.
Jessel, Toby
Rees-Davies, W. R.


Cordle, John
Johnson Smith, G. (E. Grinstead)
Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon


Cormack, Patrick
Jones, Arthur (Northants, S.)
Ridley, Hn. Nicholas


Critchley, Julian
Jopling, Michael
Ridsdale, Julian


Crouch, David
Joseph, Rt. Hn. Sir Keith
Roberts, Michael (Cardiff, N.)


Davies, Rt. Hn. John (Knutsford)
Kaberry, Sir Donald
Rodgers, Sir John (Sevenoaks)


d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Sir Henry
Kellett, Mrs. Elaine
Rossi, Hugh (Hornsey)


Dodds-Parker, Douglas
Kershaw, Anthony
Royle, Anthony


Douglas-Home, Rt. Hn. Sir Alec
Kimball, Marcus
Russell, Sir Ronald


Drayson, G. B.
King, Evelyn (Dorset, S.)
Scott, Nicholas


du Cann, At. Hn Edward
King, Tom (Bridgwater)
Sharples, Richard


Dykes, Hugh
Kinsey, J. R.
Shaw, Michael (Sc'b'gh &amp; Whitby)


Eden, Sir John
Kirk, Peter
Shelton, William (Clapham)


Edwards, Nicholas (Pembroke)
Kitson, Timothy
Simeons, Charles


Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carshalton)
Knight, Mrs. Jill
Skeet, T. H. H.


Elliott, R. W. (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne, N.)
Knox, David
Smith, Dudley (W'wick &amp; L'mington)


Emery, Peter
Legge-Bourke, Sir Harry
Soref, Harold


Eyre, Reginald
Le Marchant, Spencer
Speed, Keith


Farr, John
Lloyd, Ian (P'tsm'th, Langstone)
Spence, John


Fell, Anthony
Longden, Gilbert
Stewart-Smith, D. G. (Belper)


Fenner, Mrs. Peggy
Loveridge, John
Stodart, Anthony (Edinburgh, W.)


Finsberg, Geoffrey (Hampstead)
Maclean, Sir Fitzroy
Stoddart-Scott, Col. Sir M.


Fletcher-Cooke, Charles
McMaster, Stanley
Stokes, John


Foster, Sir John
Macmillan, Maurice (Farnham)
Sutcliffe, John


Fowler, Norman
McNair-Wilson, Michael
Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne)


Fox, Marcus
Maddan, Martin
Taylor, Edward M. (G'gow, Cathcart)


Galbraith, Hn. T. G.
Marten, Neil
Taylor, Frank (Moss Side)


Gilmour, Sir John (Fife, E.)
Mather, Carol
Taylor, Robert (Croydon, N.W.)


Glyn, Dr. Alan
Maude, Angus
Tebblt, Norman


Godber, Rt. Hn. J. B.
Maudling, Rt. Hn. Reginald
Temple, John M.


Goodhart, Philip
Mawby, Ray
Thatcher, Rt. Hn. Mrs. Margaret


Goodhew, Victor
Maxwell-Hyslop, R.J.
Thomas, John Stradling (Monmouth)


Gower, Raymond
Meyer, Sir Anthony
Thompson, Sir Richard (Croydon, S,)


Gray, Hamish
Moate, Roger
Tilney, John


Grieve, Percy
Molyneaux, James
Turton, Rt. Hn. R. H.


Griffiths, Eldon (Bury St. Edmunds)
Monks, Mrs. Connie
Vaughan, Dr. Gerard


Grylls, Michael
Monro, Hector
Waddington, David


Gummer, Selwyn
Montgomery, Fergus
Walker, Rt. Hn. Peter (Worcester)


Gurden, Harold
Morgan, Geraint (Denbigh)
Wall, Patrick


Hall, Miss Joan (Keighley)
Morgan-Giles, Rear-Adm.
Walters, Dennis


Hall, John (Wycombe)
Mudd, David
Ward, Dame Irene


Hall-Davis, A. G. F.
Murton, Oscar
Warren, Kenneth


Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury)
Nabarro, Sir Gerald
Weatherill, Bernard


Hannam, John (Exeter)
Neave, Airey
Wells, John (Maidstone)


Harrison, Col. Sir Harwood (Eye)
Noble, Rt. Hn. Michael
White, Roger (Cravesend)


Harvey, Sir Arthur Vera
Normanton, Tom
Whitelaw, Rt. Hn. William


Haselhurst, Alan
Nott, John
Wilkinson, John


Hastings, Stephen
Onslow, Cranley
Wood, Rt. Hn. Richard


Hawkins, Paul
Oppenheim, Mrs. Sally
Woodhouse, Hn. Christopher


Hay, John
Orr, Capt. L. P. S.
Worsley, Marcus


Hayhoe, Barney
Owen, Idris (Stockport, N.)
Wylle, Rt. Hn. N. R.


Heath, Rt. Hn. Edward
Page, Graham (Crosby)
TELLERS FOR THE AYES:


Hicks, Robert
Page, John (Harrow, W.)
Mr. Jasper More and


Higgins, Terence I-.
Parkinson, Cecil (Enfield, W.)
Mr. Tim Fortescue.




NOES


Abse, Leo
Brown, Hugh D. (G'gow, Provan)
Davies, Ifor (Gower)


Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.)
Buchan, Norman
Deakins, Eric


Armstrong, Ernest
Butler, Mrs. Joyce (Wood Green)
Delargy, H. J.


Ashley, Jack
Campbell, I. (Dunbartonshire, W.)
Dell, Rt. Hn. Edmund


Bagier, Gordon A. T.
Carmichael, Neil
Dempsey, James


Barnett, Joel
Carter, Ray (Birmkigh'm, Northfield)
Doig, Peter


Benn, Rt. Hn. Anthony Wedgwood
Carter-Jones, Lewis (Eccles)
Dormand, J. D.


Bennett, James (Glasgow, Bridgeton)
Cocks, Michael (Bristol, S.)
Douglas-Mann, Bruce


Bishop, E. S.
Cohen, Stanley
Edwards, Robert (Bilston)


Blenkinsop, Arthur
Concannon, J, D,
Edwards, William (Merioneth)


Boardman, H. (Leigh)
Conlan, Bernard
Ellis, Tom


Booth, Albert
Dalyell, Tarn
English, Michael


Boyden, James (Bishop Auckland)
Davidson, Arthur
Evans, Fred


Bradley, Tom
Davies, Denzil (Llanelly)
Fletcher, Raymond (Ilkeston)







Fletcher, Ted (Darlington)
Lee, Rt. Hn. Frederick
Probert, Arthur


Foley, Maurice
Lestor, Miss Joan
Rhodes, Geoffrey


Golding, John
Lewis, Arthur (W. Ham, N.)
Richard, Ivor


Gordon Walker, Rt. Hn. P. C.
Lewis, Ron (Carlisle)
Roberts, Albert (Normanton)


Gouriay, Harry
Loughlin, Charles
Robertson, John (Paisley)


Grant, George (Morpeth)
Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson
Roderick,Caerwyn E.(Br'c'n&amp;R'dnor)


Griffiths, Eddie (Brightside)
McElhone, Frank
Ross, Rt. Hn. William (Kilmarnock)


Griffiths, Will (Exchange)
McGuire, Michael
Sheldon, Robert (Ashton-under-Lyne)


Hamilton, James (Bothwell)
Mackie, John
Shore, Rt. Hn, Peter (Stepney)


Hamilton, William (Fife, W.)
Maclennan, Robert
Short, Mrs. Renée (W'hampton.N.E.)


Hamling, William
McNamara, J. Kevin
Skinner, Dennis


Harper, Joseph
MacPherson, Malcolm
Smith, John (Lanarkshire, N.)


Harrison, Walter (Wakefield)
Marquand, David
Spriggs, Leslie


Hart, Rt. Hn. Judith
Mason, Rt. Hn. Roy
Stallard, A. W.


Hattersley, Roy
Meacher, Michael
Strauss, Rt. Hn. G. R.


Healey, Rt. Hn. Denis
Mellish, Rt. Hn. Robert
Summerskill, Hn. Dr. Shirley


Heffer, Eric S.
Mikardo, Ian
Thomas,Rt.Hn.George (Cardiff,W.)


Horam, John
Milne, Edward (Blyth)
Thomas, Jeffrey (Abertillery)


Howell, Denis (Small Heath)
Moyle, Roland
Tuck, Raphael


Hushes, Rt. Hn. Cledwyn (Anglesey)
Mulley, Rt. Hn. Frederick
Urwin, T. W.


Hunter, Adam
O'Halloran, Michael
Wainwright, Edwin


Jenkins, Hugh (Putney)
O'Malley, Brian
Wallace, George


Jenkins, Rt. Hn. Roy (Stechford)
Oram, Bert
Watkins, David


Johnson, Carol (Lewisham, S.)
Orbach, Maurice
Weitzman, David


Johnson, James (K'ston-on-Hull, W.)
Orme, Stanley
White, James (Glasgow, Pollok)


Johnson, Walter (Derby, S.)
Oswald, Thomas
Whitehead, Phillip


Jones, Barry (Flint, E.)
Owen, Dr. David (Plymouth, Sutton)
Whitlock, William


Jones, Dan (Burnley)
Parker, John (Dagenham)
Willey, Rt. Hn. Frederick


Jones,Rt.Hn.Sir Elwyn(W. Ham, S.)
Parry, Robert (Liverpool, Exchange)
Williams, Alan (Swansea, W.)


Judd, Frank
Pavitt, Laurie
Williams, W. T. (Warrington)


Kaufman, Gerald
Peart, Rt. Hn. Fred



Kelley, Richard
Pendry, Tom
TELLERS FOR THE NOES:


Kinnock, Neil
Pentland, Norman
Mr. Ernest G. Perry and


Lambie, David
Prentice, Rt. Hn. Beg.
Mr. Donald Coleman.


Lamond, James
Prescott, John



Lawson, George
Price, J. T. (Westhoughton)

Division No. 324.]
AYES
[9.37 a.m.


Adley, Robert
Costain, A. P.
Hall, Miss Joan (Keighley)


Alison, Michael (Barkston Ash)
Critchley, Julian
Hall, John (Wycombe)


Allason, James (Hemel Hempstead)
Crouch, David
Hall-Davis, A. C. F.


Amery, Rt. Hn. Julian
Davies, Rt. Hn. John (Knutsford)
Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury)


Archer, Jeffrey (Louth)
d'Avigdor-Coldsmid, Sir Henry
Hannam, John (Exeter)


Astor, John
d'Avigdor-Goldsmid,Ma|.-Gen. James
Harrison, Col. Sir Harwood (Eye)


Atkins, Humphrey
Dodds-Parker, Douglas
Harvey, Sir Arthur Vere


Baker, Kenneth (St. Marylebone)
Douglas-Home, Rt. Hn. Sir Alec
Haselhurst, Alan


Baker, W. H. K. (Banff)
Drayson, G. B.
Hastings, Stephen


Batsford, Brian
du Cann, Rt. Hn. Edward
Hawkins, Paul


Beamish, Col. Sir Tuffon
Dykes, Hugh
Hayhoe, Barney


Bennett, Sir Frederic (Torquay)
Eden, Sir John
Heath, Rt. Hn. Edward


Bennett, Dr. Reginald (Gosport)
Edwards, Nicholas (Pembroke)
Hicks, Robert


Benyon, W.
Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carshalton)
Higgins, Terence L.


Biffen, John
Elliott, R. W. (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne.N.)
Hill, John E. B. (Norfolk, S.)


Biggs-Davison, John
Emery, Peter
Holland, Philip


Body, Richard
Eyre, Reginald
Hordern, Peter


Bossom, Sir Clive
Farr, John
Hornby, Richard


Bowden, Andrew
Fell, Anthony
Homsby-Smith.Rt.Hn.Dame Patricia


Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hn. John
Fermer, Mrs. Peggy
Howell, David (Guildford)


Braine, Bernard
Finsberg, Geoffrey (Hampstead)
Howell, Ralph (Norfolk, N.)


Bray, Ronald
Fletcher-Cooke, Charles
Hutchison, Michael Clark


Brewis, John
Fortescue, Tim
Iremonger, T. L.


Brocklebank-Fowler, Christopher
Foster, Sir John
James, David


Brown, Sir Edward (Bath)
Fowler, Norman
Jenkin, Patrick (Woodford)


Bryan, Paul
Fox, Marcus
Jessel, Toby


Buchanan-Smith, Alick(Angus,N&amp;M)
Galbraith, Hn. T. G.
Johnson Smith, G. (E. Grinstead)


Bullus, Sir Eric
Gibson-Watt, David
Jones, Arthur (Northants, S.)


Burden, F. A.
Cilmour, Ian (Norfolk, C.)
Jopling, Michael


Butler, Adam (Bosworth)
Gilmour, Sir John (Fife, E.)
Joseph, fit. Hn. Sir Keith


Campbell, Rt.Hn.G.(Moray&amp;Nairn)
Clyn, Dr. Alan
Kaberry, Sir Donald


Cary, Sir Robert
Godber, Rt. Hn. J. B.
Kellett, Mrs. Elaine


Chapman, Sydney
Goodhart, Philip
Kershaw, Anthony


Chichester-Clark, R.
Gower, Raymond
Kimball, Marcus


Churchill, w. S.
Gray, Hamish
King, Evelyn (Dorset, S.)


Clark, William (Surrey, E.)
Green, Alan
King, Tom (Bridgwater)


Clegg, Walter
Grieve, Percy
Kinsey, J. R.


Cooke, Robert
Griffiths, Eldon (Bury St. Edmunds)
Kirk, Peter


Cooper, A. E.
Grylls, Michael
Kitson, Timothy


Cordle, John
Cummer, Selwyn
Knight, Mr. Jill


Cormack, Patrick
Gurden, Harold
Knox, David







Lane, David
Oppenheim, Mrs. Sally
Stewart-Smith, D. G. (Belper)


Legge-Bourke, Sir Harry
Orr, Capt. L. P. S.
Stodart, Anthony (Edinburgh, W.)


Le Marchant, Spencer
Owen, Idris (Stockport, N.)
Stoddart-Scott, Col. Sir M.


Lloyd, Ian (P'tsm'th, Langstone)
Page, Graham (Crosby)
Stokes, John


Longden, Gilbert
Page, John (Harrow, W.)
Sutcliffe, John


Loveridge, John
Parkinson, Cecil (Enfield, W.)
Tapsell, Peter


McAdden, Sir Stephen
Peyton, Rt. Hn. John
Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne)


Maclean, Sir Fitzroy
Pike, Miss Mervyn
Taylor,Edward M.(G'gow,Cathcart)


Macmillan, Maurice (Farnham)
Pink, R. Bonner
Taylor, Frank (Moss Side)


McNair-Wilson, Michael
Pounder, Ration
Taylor, Robert (Croydon, N.W.)


Maddan, Martin
Price, David (Eastleigh)
Tebbit, Norman


Madel, David
Prior, Rt. Hn. J. M. L.
Temple, John M.


Marten, Neil
proudfoot, Wilfred
Thatcher, Rt. Hn. Mrs. Margaret


Maude, Angue
Pym, Rt. Hn. Francis
Thomas, John Stradling (Monmouth)


Maudling, Rt. Hn. Reginald
Quennell, Miss J. M.
Thompson, Sir Richard (Croydon, s.)


Mawby, Ray
Rawlinson, Rt. Hn, Sir Peter
Tilney, John


Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J.
Reed, Laurance (Bolton, E.)
Trafford, Dr. Anthony


Meyer, Sir Anthony
Rees, Peter (Dover)
Turton, Rt. Hn. R. H.


Mills, Peter (Torrington)
Rees-Davies, W. R.
Vaughan, Dr. Gerard


Mills, Stratton (Belfast, N.)
Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon
Waddington, David


Mitcbell,Lt.-Col.C.(Aberde'errhire,W)
Ridley, Hn. Nicholas
Walker, Rt. Hn. Peter (Worcester)


Moate, Roger
Ridsdale, Julian
Wall, Patrick


Motyneaux, James
Roberts, Michael (Cardiff, N.)
Walters, Dennis


Money, Ernle
Rodgers, Sir John (Sevenoaks)
Ward, Dame Irene


Monks, Mrs, Connie
Rossi, Hugh (Hornsey)
Warren, Kenneth


Montgomery, Fergus
Rost, Peter
Weatherill, Bernard


More, Jasper
Royle, Anthony
Wells, John (Maidstone)


Morgan, Geraint (Denbigh)
Russell, Sir Ronald
White, Roger (Gravesend)


Morgan-Giles, Rear-Adm.
Scott, Nicholas
Whitelaw, Rt. Hn. William


Morrison, Charles (Devizes)
Scott-Hopkins, James
Wilkinson, John


Mudd, David
Sharpies, Richard
Wolrige-Cordon, Patrick


Murton, Oscar
Shaw, Michael (Sc'b'gh&amp; Whitby)
Wood, Rt. Hn. Richard


Nabarro, Sir Gerald
Shelton, William (Clapham)
Woodhouse, Hn. Christopher


Neave, Airey
Simeons, Charles
Worsley, Marcus


Nicholls, Sir Harmar
Skeet, T. H. H.
Wylie, Rt. Hn. N. R.


Noble, Rt. Hn. Michael
Smith, Dudley (W'wick&amp;L'mington)
Younger, Hn. George


Normanton, Tom
Soref, Harold
TELLERS FOR THE AYES:


Nott, John
Speed, Keith
Mr. Hector Monro and


Onslow, Cranley
Spence, John
Mr. Victor Goodhew.




NOES


Abse, Leo
Fletcher, Ted (Darlington)
Lewis, Ron (Carlisle)


Armstrong, Ernest
Foley, Maurice
Lomas, Kenneth


Ashley, Jack
Ford, Ben
Loughlin, Charles


Bagier, Gordon A. T.
Golding, John
Lyon, Alexander W. (York)


Barnett, Joel
Gordon Walker, Rt. Hn. P. C.
McElhone, Frank


Benn, Rt. Hn. Anthony Wedgwood
Gourlay, Harry
McGuire, Michael


Bennett, James (Glasgow, Bridgeton)
Grant, George (Morpeth)
Mackie, John


Bishop, E. S.
Griffiths, Eddie (Brightside)
Maclennan, Robert


Blenkinsop, Arthur
Griffiths, Will (Exchange)
McNamara, J. Kevin


Boardman, H. (Leigh)
Hamilton, James (Bothwell)
MacPherson, Malcolm


Booth, Albert
Hamilton, William (Fife, W.)
Marquand, David


Boyden, James (Bishop Auckland)
Hannan, William (G'gow, Maryhill)
Mason, Rt. Hn. Roy


Bradley, Tom
Harper, Joseph
Meacher, Michael


Brown, Hugh D. (G'gow, Provan)
Harrison, Walter (Wakefield)
Mellish, Rt. Hn. Robert


Buchan, Norman
Hart, Rt. Hn. Judith
Mikardo, Ian


Butler, Mrs. Joyce (Wood Green)
Hattersley, Roy
Milne, Edward (Blyth)


Campbell) I. (Dunbartonshire, W.)
Healey, Rt. Hn. Denis
Moyle, Roland


Carmichael, Neil
Heffer, Eric S.
Mulley, Rt. Hn. Frederick


Carter,Ray (Birmingham, Northfield)
Horam, John
O'Halloran, Michael


Carter-Jones, Lewis (Eccles)
Howell, Denis (Small Heath)
O'Malley, Brian


Cocks, Michael (Bristol, S.)
Hughes, Rt. Hn. Cledwyn (Anglesey)
Oram, Bert


Cohen, Stanley
Hunter, Adam
Orbach, Maurice


Concannon, J. D.
Jeger,Mrs.Lena(H'b,n&amp;St.P'cras,S.)
Orme, Stanley


Conlan, Bernard
Jenkins, Hugh (Putney)
Oswald, Thomas


Dalyell, Tarn
Jenkins, Rt. Hn. Roy (Stechford)
Owen, Dr. David (Plymouth, Sutton)


Davidson, Arthur
Johnson, Carol (Lewisham, S.)
Parker, John (Dagenham)


Davies, Denzil (Llanelly)
Johnson, James (K'ston-on-Hull.W.)
Parry, Robert (Liverpool, Exchange)


Davies, Ifor (Gower)
Johnson, Walter (Derby, S.)
Pavitt, Laurie


Deakins, Eric
Jones, Barry (Flint, E.)
Peart, Rt. Hn. Fred


Delargy, H. J.
Jones, Dan (Burnley)
Pendry, Tom


Dell, Rt. Hn. Edmund
Jones,Rt.Hn.Sir Elwyn(W.Ham,S.)
Pentland, Norman


Dempsey, James
Jones, Gwynoro (Carmarthen)
Prentice, Rt. Hn. Reg.


Doig, Peter
Judd, Frank
Prescott, John


Dormand, J. D.
Kaufman, Gerald
Price, J. T. (Westhoughton)


Douglas-Mann, Bruce
Kelley, Richard
Probert, Arthur


Edwards, Robert (Bilston)
Kinnock, Neil
Rhodes, Geoffrey


Edwards, William (Merioneth)
Lamond, James
Richard, Ivor


Ellis, Tom
Lawson, George
Roberts, Albert (Normanton)


English, Michael
Lee, Rt. Hn. Frederick
Roderick,Caerwyn E.(Br'c'n&amp;R'dnor)


Evans, Fred
Lestor, Miss Joan
Ross, Rt. Hn. William (Kilmarnock)


Fletcher, Raymond (Ilkeston)
Lewis, Arthur (W. Ham, N.)
Sheldon, Robert (Ashton-under-Lyne)







Shore, Rt. Hn. Peter (Stepney)
Thomas, Jeffrey (Abertillery)
Whitlock, William


Short, Mrs. Renée (W'hampton.N.E.)
Tomney, Frank
Willey, Rt. Hn. Frederick


Skinner, Dennis
Tuck, Raphael
Williams, Alan (Swansea, W.)


Smith, John (Lanarkshire, N.)
Urwin, T. W.
Williams, W. T. (Warrington)


Spriggs, Leslie
Wainwright, Edwin



Stallard, A. W.
Wallace, George
TELLERS FOR THE NOES:


Strauss, Rt. Hn. G. R.
Watkins, David
Mr. Ernest G. Perry and


Summerskill, Hn. Dr. Shirley
Weitzman, David
Mr. Donald Coleman.


Thomas,Rt.Hn.George (Cardiff,W.)
Whitehead, Phillip

Division No. 325.]
AYES
[9.49 a.m.


Adley, Robert
Fowler, Norman
Lloyd, Ian (P'tsm'th, Langstone)


Alison, Michael (Barkston Ash)
Fox, Marcus
Longden, Gilbert


Aliason, James (Hemel Hempstead)
Fry, Peter
Loveridge, John


Amery, Rt. Hn. Julian
Galbraith, Hn. T. G.
McAdden, Sir Stephen


Archer, Jeffrey (Louth)
Gibson-Watt, David
McCrindle, R, A.


Astor, John
Gilmour, Ian (Norfolk, C.)
Maclean, Sir Fitzroy


Atkins, Humphrey
Gilmour, Sir John (Fife, E.)
Macmillan, Maurice (Farnham)


Baker, Kenneth (St. Marylebone)
Glyn, Dr. Alan
McNair-Wilson, Michael


Baker, W. H. K. (Banff)
Godber, Rt. Hn. J. B.
McNair-Wilson, Patrick (NewForest)


Batsford, Brian
Goodhart, Philip
Maddan, Martin


Beamish, Col. Sir Tufton
Goodhew, Victor
Madel, David


Bennett, Sir Frederic (Torquay)
Gorst, John
Maginnis, John E.


Bennett, Dr. Reginald (Gosport)
Gower, Raymond
Marten, Neil


Benyon, W.
Gray, Hamish
Mather, Carol


Berry, Hn. Anthony
Green, Alan
Maude, Angus


Bitten, John
Grieve, Percy
Maudling, Rt. Hn. Reginald


Biggs-Davison, John
Griffiths, Eldon (Bury St. Edmunds)
Mawby, Ray


Blaker, Peter
Grylls, Michael
Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J.


Body, Richard
Gummer, Selwyn
Meyer, Sir Anthony


Bowden, Andrew
Gurden, Harold
Mills, Peter (Torrington)


Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hn. John
Hall, Miss Joan (Keighley)
Mills, Stratton (Belfast, N.)


Braine, Bernard
Hall, John (Wycombe)
Mitchell, Lt. -Col. C.(Aberdeenshire, W)


Bray, Ronald
Hall-Davis, A. G. F.
Moate, Roger


Brewis, John
Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury)
Molyneaux, James


Brocklebank-Fowler, Christopher
Harrison, Col. Sir Harwood (Eye)
Money, Ernie


Brown, Sir Edward (Bath)
Harvey, Sir Arthur Vere
Monks, Mrs. Connie


Bruce-Gardyne, J.
Haselhurst, Alan
Monro, Hector


Bryan, Paul
Hastings, Stephen
Montgomery, Fergus


Buchanan-Smith, Alick(Angus,N&amp;M)
Hawkins, Paul
More, Jasper


Bullus, Sir Eric
Hay, John
Morgan, Geraint (Denbigh)


Burden, F. A.
Hayhoe, Barney
Morgan-Giles, Rear-Adm.


Butler, Adam (Bosworth)
Heath, Rt. Hn. Edward
Morrison, Charles (Devizes)


Campbell, Rt.Hn.G.(Moray&amp;Naim)
Heseltine, Michael
Mudd, David


Cary, Sir Robert
Hicks, Robert
Murton, Oscar


Channon, Paul
Higgins, Terence L.
Nabarro, Sir Gerald


Chapman, Sydney
Hiley, Joseph
Neave, Airey


Chichester-Clark, R.
Hill, John E. B. (Norfolk, S.)
Nicholls, Sir Harmar


Churchill, W. S.
Hill, James (Southampton, Test)
Noble, Rt. Hn. Michael


Clark, William (Surrey, E.)
Holland, Philip
Normanton, Tom


Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe)
Hordem, Peter
Nott, John


Clegg, Walter
Hornby, Richard
Onslow, Cranfey


Cooke, Robert
Hornsby-Smith.Rt.Hn.Dame Patricia
Oppenheim, Mrs. Sally


Cooper, A. E.
Howell, David (Guildford)
Orr, Capt. L. P. S.


Cordle, John
Howell, Ralph (Norfolk, N.)
Owen, Idris (Stockport, N.)


Cormack, Patrick
Hutchison, Michael Clark
Page, Graham (Crosby)


Costain, A. P.
Iremonger, T. L.
Page, John (Harrow, W.)


Critchley, Julian
James, David
Parkinson, Cecil (Enfield, W.)


Crouch, David
Jenkin, Patrick (Woodford)
Percival, Ian


Davies, Rt. Hn. John (Knutsford)
Jessel, Toby
Peyton, Rt. Hn. John


d'Avigdor-Goldsmld, Sir Henry
Johnson Smith, G. (E. Grinstead)
Pike, Miss Mervyn


d'Avigdor-Goldsmid,Ma|. -Gen. James
Jones, Arthur (Northants, S.)
Pink, R. Bonner


Dodds-Parker, Douglas
Jopling, Michael
Pounder, Rafton


Douglas-Home, Rt. Hn. Sir Alec
Joseph, Rt. Hn. Sir Keith
Price, David (Eastleigh)


Drayson, G. B.
Kaberry, Sir Donald
Prior, Rt. Hn. J. M. L.


du Cann, Rt. Hn. Edward
Kellett, Mrs. Elaine
Proudfoot, Wilfred


Dykes, Hugh
Kershaw, Anthony
Pym, Rt. Hn. Francis


Eden, Sir John
Kimball, Marcus
Quenneil, Miss J. M.


Edwards, Nicholas (Pembroke)
King, Evelyn (Dorset, S.)
Rawlinson, Rt. Hn. Sir Peter


Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carshalton)
King, Tom (Bridgwater)
Reed, Laurance (Bolton, E.)


Elliott, R. W. (N'c'tte-upon-Tyne.N.)
Kinsey, J. R.
Rees, Peter (Dover)


Emery, Peter
Kirk, Peter
Rees-Davies, W. R,


Eyre, Reginald
Kitson, Timothy
Rhys Williams, 8ir Brandon


Fell, Anthony
Knight, Mrs. Jill
Ridley, Hn. Nicholas


Fenner, Mrs. Peggy
Knox, David
Ridsdale, Julian


Finsberg, Geoffrey (Hampstead)
Lane, David
Roberts, Michael (Cardiff, N.)


Fletcher-Cooke, Charles
Langford-Holt, Sir John
Rodgers, Sir John (Sevenoaks)


Fortescue, Tim
Legge-Bourke, Sir Harry
Rost, Peter


Foster, Sir John
Le Marchant, Spencer
Royle, Anthony







Russell, Sir Ronald
Sutcliffe, John
Waddington, David


St. John-Stevas, Norman
Tapsell, Peter
Walker, Rt. Hn. Peter (Worcester)


Scott, Nicholas
Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne)
Wall, Patrick


Scott-Hopkins, James
Taylor,Edward M.(G'gow,Cathcart)
Walters, Dennis


Sharpies, Richard
Taylor, Frank (Moss Side)
Ward, Dame Irene


Shaw, Michael (Sc'b'gh&amp; Whitby)
Taylor, Robert (Croydon, N.W.)
Wells, John (Maidstone)


Shelton, William (Clapham)
Tebbit, Norman
White, Roger (Gravesend)


Simeons, Charles
Temple, John M.
Whitelaw, Rt. Hn. William


Skeet, T. H. H.
Thatcher, Rt. Hn. Mrs. Margaret
Wiggin, Jerry


Smith, Dudley (W'wick&amp; L'mington)
Thomas, John Strading (Monmouth)
Wilkinson, John


Soref, Harold
Thompson, Sir Richard (Croydon, S.)
Wolrige-Gordon, Patrick


Speed, Keith
Tilney, John
Wood, Rt. Hn. Richard


Spence, John
Trafford, Dr. Anthony
Woodhouse, Hn. Christopher


Sproat, Iain
Trew, Peter
Wylie, Rt. Hn. N. R.


Stewart-Smith, D. C. (Belper)
Tugendhat, Christopher
Younger, Hn. George


Sodart, Anthony (Edinburgh, W.)
Turton, Rt. Hn. R. H.



Stoddart-Scott, Col. Sir M.
van Straubenzee, W. R.
TELLERS FOR THE AYES:


Stokes, John
Vaughan, Dr. Gerard
Mr. Bernard Weanherill and


Stuttaford, Dr. Tom
Vickers, Dame Joan
Mr. Hugh Rossi.




NOES


Abse, Leo
Hamilton, William (Fife, W.)
O'Malley, Brian


Armstrong, Ernest
Hamling, William
Oram, Bert


Ashley, Jack
Hannan, William (G'gow, Maryhill)
Orbach, Maurice


Bagier, Gordon A. T.
Harper, Joseph
Orme, Stanley


Barnett, Joel
Harrison, Walter (Wakefield)
Oswald, Thomas


Benn, Rt. Hn. Anthony Wedgwood
Hart, Rt. Hn. Judith
Owen, Dr. David (Plymouth, Sutton)


Bennett, James (Glasgow, Bridgeton)
Hattersley, Roy
Parker, John (Dagenham)


Bishop, E. S.
Healey, Rt. Hn. Denis
Parry, Robert (Liverpool, Exchange)


Blenkinsop, Arthur
Heffer, Eric S.
Pavitt, Laurie


Boardman, H. (Leigh)
Horam, John
Peart, Rt. Hn. Fred


Boyden, James (Bishop Auckland)
Howell, Denis (Small Heath)
Pendry, Tom


Bradley, Tom
Hughes, Rt. Hn. Cledwyn (Anglesey)
Pentland, Norman


Brown, Hugh D. (G'gow, Provan)
Hunter, Adam
Prentice, Rt. Hn. Reg.


Buchan, Norman
Jeger,Mrs.Lena(H'b'n&amp;St.P'cras,S.)
Prescott, John


Butler, Mrs. Joyce (Wood Green)
Jenkins, Hugh (Putney)
Price, J. T. (Westhoughton)


Campbell, I. (Dunbartonshire, W.)
Jenkins, Rt. Hn. Roy (Stechford)
Probert, Arthur


Carmichael, Neil
Johnson, Carol (Lewisham, S.)
Rhodes, Geoffrey


Carter, Ray (Birmingh'm, Northfield)
Johnson, James (K'ston-on-Hull, W.)
Richard, Ivor


Carter-Jones, Lewis (Eccles)
Johnson, Walter (Derby, S.)
Roberts, Albert (Normanton)


Cocks, Michael (Bristol, S.)
Jones, Barry (Flint, E.)
Robertson, John (Paisley)


Cohen, Stanley
Jones, Dan (Burnley)
Roderick,Caerwyn E.(Br'c'n&amp;R'dnor)


Concannon, J. D.
Jones,Rt.Hn,Sir Elwyn(W.Ham,S.)
Ross, Rt. Hn. William (Kilmarnock)


Conlan, Bernard
Jones, Gwynoro (Carmarthen)
Sheldon, Robert(Ashton-under-Lyne)



Judd, Frank
Shore, Rt. Hn. Peter (Stepney)


Corbet, Mrs. Freda
Kaufman, Gerald
Silverman, Julius


Crosland, Rt. Hn. Anthony
Kelley, Richard
Skinner, Dennis


Dalyell, Tam
Kinnock, Neil
Smith, John (Lanarkshire, N.)


Davidson, Arthur
Lamble, David
Spriggs, Leslie


Davies, Derail (Llanelly)
Lamond, James
Stallard, A. W.


Davies, Ifor (Gower)
Lawson, George
Strauss, Rt. Hn. G. R.


Deakins, Eric
Leadbitter, Ted
Summerskill, Hn. Dr. Shirley


Delargy, H. J.
Lee, Rt. Hn. Frederick
Thomas,Rt.Hn.George (Cardiff,W.)


Dell, Rt. Hn. Edmund
Lewis, Arthur (W. Ham N.)
Thomas, Jeffrey (Abertillery)


Dempsey, James
Lewis, Ron (Carlisle)
Tomney, Frank


Doig, Peter
Loughlin, Charles
Tuck, Raphael


Dormand, J. D.
Lyon, Alexander W. (York)
Urwin, T. W.


Douglas-Mann, Bruce
Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson
Wainwright, Edwin


Edwards, Robert (Bilston)
McElhone, Frank
Wallace, George


Edwards, William (Merioneth)
McGuire, Michael
Watkins, David


Ellis, Tom
Mackie, John
Weitzman, David


English, Michael
Maclennan, Robert
White, James (Glasgow, Pollok)


Evans, Fred
McNamara, J. Kevin
Whitehead, Phillip


Fletcher, Raymond (Ilkeston)
MacPherson, Malcolm
Whitlock, William


Fletcher, Ted (Darlington)
Marquand, David
Willey, Rt. Hn, Frederick


Foley, Maurice
Mason, Rt. Hn. Roy
Williams, Alan (Swansea, W.)


Ford, Ben
Meacher, Michael
Williams, W. T. (Warrington)


Golding, John
Mellish, Rt. Hn. Robert



Gourlay, Harry
Mikardo, Ian
TELLERS FOR THE NOES:


Grant, George (Morpeth)
Milne, Edward (Blyth)
Mr. Ernest G. Perry and


Griffiths, Eddie (Brightside)
Moyle, Roland
Mr. Donald Coleman.


Griffiths, Will (Exchange)
Mulley, Rt. Hn. Frederick



Hamilton, James (Bothwell)
O'Halloran, Michael

Division No. 326.]
AYES
[10.2 a.m.


Alison, Michael (Barkston Ash)
Awdry, Daniel
Bennett, Dr. Reginald (Gosport)


Allason, James (Hemel Hempstead)
Baker, Kenneth (St. Marylebone)
Benyon, W.


Amery, Rt. Hn. Julian
Baker, W. H. K. (Banff)
Berry, Hn. Anthony


Archer, Jeffrey (Louth)
Batsford, Brian
Biffen, John


Astor, John
Beamish, Col. Sir Tufton
Biggs-Davison, John


Atkins, Humphrey
Bennett, Sir Frederic (Torquay)
Blaker, Peter







Body, Richard
Hiley, Joseph
Percival, Ian


Bossom, Sir Clivo
Hill, John E. B. (.Norfolk, S.)
Peyton, Rt. Hn. John


Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hn. John
Hill, James (Southampton, Test)
Pike, Miss Mervyn


Braine, Bernard
Holland, Philip
Pink, R. Bonner


Bray, Ronald
Hordem, Peter
Pounder, Rafton


Brewis, Johm
Hornby, Richard
Price, David (Eastleigh)


Brocklebank-Fowler, Christopher
Hornsby-Smith.Rt.Hn.Dame Patricia
Prior, Rt. Hn. J. M. L.


Brown, Sir Edward (Bath)
Howell, David (Guildford)
Proudfoot, Wilfred


Bruce-Gardyne, J.
Howell, Ralph (Norfolk, N.)
Pym, Rt. Hn. Francis


Bryan, Paul
Hunt, John
Quennell, Miss J. M.


Buchanan-Smith, Alick(Angus,N&amp;M)
Hutchison, Michael Clark
Rawlinson, Rt. Hn. Sir Peter


Bullus, Sir Eric
Iremonger, T. L.
Reed, Laurance (Bolton, E.)


Burden, F. A.
James, David
Rees, Peter (Dover)


Campbell, Rt.Hn.G.(Moray&amp;Naim)
Jenkin, Patrick (Woodford)
Rees-Davies, W. R.


Cary, Sir Robert
Jessel, Toby
Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon


Channon, Paul
Johnson Smith, G. (E. Grinstead)
Ridley, Hn. Nicholas


Chapman, Sydney
Jones, Arthur (Northants, S.)
Ridsdale, Julian


Chichester-Clark, R.
Jopling, Michaef
Roberts, Michael (Cardiff, N.)


Churchill, W. S.
Joseph, Rt. Hn. Sir Keith
Rodgers, Sir John (Sevenoaks)


Clark, William (Surrey, E.)
Kaberry, Sir Donald
Rossi, Hugh (Hornsey)


Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe)
Kellett, Mrs. Elaine
Rost, Peter


Cooke, Robert
Kershaw, Anthony
Royle, Anthony


Cooper, A, E.
Kimball, Marcus
Russell, Sir Ronald


Cordle, John
King, Evelyn (Dorset, S.)
St. John-Stevas, Norman


Corfield, Rt. Hn. Frederick
King, Tom (Bridgwater)
Scott, Nicholas


Cormack, Patrick
Kinsey, J. R.
Scott-Hopkins, James


Costain, A. P.
Kirk, Peter
Sharpies, Richard


Critchley, Julian
Kitson, Timothy
Shaw, Michael (Sc'b'gh&amp; Whitby)


Crouch, David
Knight, Mrs. Jill
Shelton, William (Clapham)


Davies, Rt. Hn. John (Knutsford)
Knox, David
Simeons, Charles


d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Sir Henry
Lane, David
Smith, Dudley (W'wick&amp; L'mington)


d'Avigdor-Goldsmid.MaJ.-Gen.James
Langford-Holt, Sir John
Soref, Harold


Dodds-Parker, Douglas
Legge-Bourke, Sir Harry
Spence, John


Douglas-Home, Rt. Hn. Sir Alec
Le Marchant, Spencer
Sproat, Iain


Drayson, G. B.
Lloyd, Ian (P'tsm'th, Langstone)
Stainton, Keith


du Cann, Rt. Hn. Edward
Longden, Gilbert
Stewart-Smith, D. G. (Belper)


Dykes, Hugh
Loveridge, John
Stodart, Anthony (Edinburgh, W.)


Eden, Sir John
McAdden, Sir Stephen
Stoddart-Scott, Col. Sir M.


Edwards, Nicholas (Pembroke)
McCrindte, R. A.
Stokes, John


Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carshalton)
Maclean, Sir Fitzroy
Stuttaford, Dr. Tom


Elliott, R. W. (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne,N.)
Macmillan, Maurice (Famham)
Sutcliffe, John


Emery, Peter
McNair-Wilson, Michael
Tapsell, Peter


Eyre, Reginald
McNair-Wilson, Patrick (NewForest)
Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne)


Fell, Anthony
Maddan, Martin
Taylor,Edward M.(G'gow,Catrroart)


Fenner, Mrs. Peggy
Madel, David
Taylor, Frank (Moss Side)


Finsberg, Geoffrey (Hampstead)
Maginnis, John E.
Taylor, Robert (Croydon, N.W.)


Fletcher-Cooke, Charles
Marten, Neil
Tebbit, Norman


Fortescue, Tim
Maude, Angus
Temple, John M.


Foster, Sir John
Maudlins, Rt. Hn. Reginald
Thatcher, Rt. Hn. Mrs. Margaret


Fowler, Norman
Mawby, Ray
Thomas, John stradling (Monmouth)


Fox, Marcus
MaxweH-Hyslop, R. J.
Thompson, Sir Richard (Croydon, S.)


Fry, Peter
Meyer, Sir Anthony
Tilney, John


Galbraith, Hn. T. G.
Mills, Peter (Torrington)
Trafford, Dr. Anthony


Gibson-Watt, David
Mills, Stratton (Belfast, N.)
Trew, Peter


Gilmour, Ian (Norfolk, C.)
Miscampbell, Norman
Tugendhat, Christopher


Gilmour, Sir John (Fife, E.)
Mitchell,Lt.-Col.C.(Aberdeenshire, W)
Turton, Rt. Hn. R. H.


Glyn, Dr. Alan
Mitchell, David (Basingstoke)
van Straubenzee, W. R.


Godber, Rt. Hn. J. B.
Moate, Roger
Vaughan, Dr. Gerard


Goodhew, Victor
Molyneaux, James
Vickers, Dame Joan


Gorst, John
Money, Ernie
Waddington, David


Gower, Raymond
Monks, Mrs. Connie
Walker, Rt. Hn. Peter (Worcester)


Gray, Hamish
Monro, Hector
Wall, Patrick


Green, Alan
Montgomery, Fergus
Walters, Dermis


Grieve, Percy
More, Jasper
Ward, Dame Irene


Griffiths, Eldon (Bury St. Edmunds)
Morgan, Geraint (Denbigh)
Warren, Kenneth


Grylls, Michael
Morgan-Giles, Rear-Adm.
Weatherill, Bernard


Gummer, Selwyn
Morrison, Charles (Devizes)
Wells, John (Maidstone)


Gurden, Harold
Mudd, David
White, Roger (Gravesend)


Hall, Miss Joan (Keighley)
Murton, Oscar
Whitelaw, Rt. Hn. William


Hall, John (Wycombe)
Nabarro, Sir Gerald
Wiggin, Jerry


Hall-Davis, A. G. F.
Neave, Airey
Wilkinson, John


Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury)
Nicholls, Sir Harmar
Wolrige-Gordon, Patrick


Harrison, col. Sir Harwood (Eye)
Normanton Tom
Wood, Rt. Hn. Richard


Harvey, Sir Arthur Vers
Nott, John
Woodnutt, Mark


Hastings, Stephen
Onslow, Cranley
Wylie, Rt. Hn. N. R.


Hawkins, Paul
Oppenheim, Mrs. Sally
Younger, Hn. George


Hay, John
Orr, Capt. L. P. S.



Hayhoe, Barney
Owen, Idris (Stockport, N.)
TELLERS FOR THE AYES:


Heath, fit. Hn. Edward
Page, Graham (Crosby)
Mr. Walter and


Heseltine, Michael
Page, John (Harrow, W.)
Mr. Keith Speed.


Higgins, Terence L.
Parkinson, Cecil (Enfield, W.)








NOES


Abse, Leo
Griffiths, Will (Exchange)
O'Halloran, Michael


Ashley, Jack
Hamilton, William (Fife, W.)
0'Malley, Brian


Bagier, Gordon A. T.
Hamling, William
Oram, Bert


Barnett, Joel
Hannan, Wiliam (G'gow, Maryhill)
Orbach, Maurice


Bennett, James (Glasgow, Bridgeton)
Harper, Joseph
Orme, Stanley


Bishop, E. S.
Harrison, Walter (Wakefield)
Oswald, Thomas


Blenkinsop, Arthur
Hattersley, Roy
Owen, Dr. David (Plymouth, Sutton)


Boardman, H. (Leigh)
Healey, Rt. Hn. Denis
Parker, John (Dagenham)


Booth, Albert
Heffer, Eric S.
Parry, Robert (Liverpool, Exchange)


Boyden, James (Bishop Auckland)
Horam, John
Pavitt, Laurie


Brown, Hugh D. (G'gow, Provan)
Howell, Denis (Small Heath)
Peart, Rt. Hn. Fred


Buchan, Norman
Hughes, Rt. Hn. Cledwyn (Anglesey)
Pendry, Tom


Butler, Mrs. Joyce (Wood Green)
Hunter, Adam
Pentland, Norman


Campbell, I. (Dunbartonshire, W.)
Jenkins, Hugh (Putney)
Prentice, Rt. Hn. Reg.


Cartnichael, Neil
Jenkins, Rt. Hn. Roy (Stechford)
Prescott, John


Carter, Ray (Birmingh'm, Northfield]
) Johnson, Carol (Lewisnam, S.)
Price, J. T. (Weathoughton)


Carter-Jones, Lewis (Eccles)
Johnson, James (K'ston-on-Hull, W.)
 Probert, Arthur


Cocks, Michael (Bristol, S.)
Johnson, Walter (Derby S.)
Rhodes, Geoffrey


Cohen, Stanley
Jones, Barry (Flint, E.)
Richard, Ivor


Coleman, Donald
Jones, Dan (Burnley)
Roberts, Albert (Normanton)


Concannon, J. D.
Jones,Rt.Hn.Sir Elwyn(W.Ham,S.)
Robertson, John (Paisley)


Conlan, Bernard
Jones, Gwynoro (Carmarthen)
Roderick,CaerwynE.CBr'c'n&amp;R'dnor)


Corbet, Mrs. Freda
Judd, Frank
Ross, Rt. Hn. William Kilmarnock)


Crostand, Rt. Hn. Anthony
Kaufman, Gerald
Sheldon, Robert (Ashton-under-Lyne)


Dalyell, Tarn
Kelley, Richard
Shore, Rt. Hn. Peter (Stepney)


Davidson, Arthur
Kinnock, Neil
Skinner, Dennis


Davies, Denzil (Llanelly)
Lambie, David
Smith, John (Lanarkshire, N.)


Davies, Ifor (Gower)
Lamond, James
Spriggs, Leslie


Deakins, Eric
Lawson, George
Stallard, A. W.


Delargy, H. J.
Leadbitter, Ted
Strauss, Rt. Hn. G. R.


Dell, Rt. Hn. Edmund
Lee, Rt. Hn. Frederick
Summerskill, Hn. Dr. Shirley


Dempsey, James
Lever, Rt Hn. Harold
Thomas,Rt.Hn.George (Cardiff.W.)


Doig, Peter
Lewis, Arthur (W. Ham, N.)
Thomas, Jeffrey (Abertillery)


Dormant!, J. D.
Lewis, Ron (Carlisle)
Tomney, Frank


Douglas-Mann, Bruce
Loughlin, Charles
Tuck, Raphael


Edwards, Robert (Bilston)
Lyon, Alexander W. (York)
Urwin, T. W.


Edwards, William (Merioneth)
Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson
Wainwright, Edwin


Ellis, Tom
McElhone, Frank
Wallace, George


English, Michael
McGuire, Michael
Watkins, David


Evans, Fred
Mackie, John
Weitzman, David


Fletcher, Raymond (Ilkeston)
Maclennan, Robert
White, James (Glasgow, Pollok)


Fletcher, Ted (Darlington)
McMillan, Tom (Glasgow, C.)
Whitehead, Phillip


Foley, Maurice
McNamara, J. Kevin
Whitlock, William


Ford, Ben
MacPherson, Malcolm
Wiley, Rt. Hn. Frederick


Freeson, Reginald
Marsh, Rt. Hn. Richard
Williams, Alan (Swansea, W.)


Golding, John
Mason, Rt. Hn. Roy
Williams, W. T. (Warrington)


Cordon Walker, Rt. Hn. P. C.
Meacher, Michael



Gourlay, Harry
Mellish, Rt. Hn. Robert
TELLERS FOR THE NOES:


Grant, George (Morpeth)
Milne, Edward (Blythe)
Mr. Ernest G. Perry and Mr. James Hamilton.


Griffiths, Eddie (Brightside)
Moyle, Roland

Division No. 327.]
AYES
[10.14 a.m.


Alison, Michael (Barkston Ash)
Buck, Antony
Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carshalton)


Allason, James (Hemel Hempstead)
Bullus, Sir Eric
Elliott, R. W. (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne.N.)


Amery, Rt. Hn. Julian
Burden, F. A.
Emery, Peter


Archer, Jeffrey (Louth)
Butler, Adam (Bosworth)
Eyre, Reginald


Astor, John
Campbell, Rt.Hn.G. (Moray&amp; Nairn)
Fell, Anthony


Atkins, Humphrey
Carr, Rt. Hn. Robert
Fenner, Mrs. Peggy


Awdry, Daniel
Cary, Sir Robert
Finsberg, Geoffrey (Hampstead)


Baker, Kenneth (St. Marylebonc)
Channon, Paul
Fisher, Nigel (Surbiton)


Baker, W. H. K. (Banff)
Chapman, Sydney
Fletcher-Cooke, Charles


Batsford, Brian
Chichester-Clark, R.
Forteecue, Tim


Beamish, Col. Sir Tufton
Churchill, W. S.
Foster, Sir John


Bennett, Sir Frederic (Torquay)
Clark, William (Surrey, E.)
Fowler, Norman


Bennett, Dr.Reginald (Gosport)
Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe)
Fry, Peter


Benyon, W.
Clegg, Walter
Galbraith, Hn. T. G.


Berry, Hn. Anthony
Cooke, Robert
Gibson-Watt, David


Biffen, John
Cooper, A. E.
Gilmour, Ian (Norfolk, C.)


Biggs-Davison, John
Cormack, Patrick
Gilmour, Sir John (Fife, E.)


Blaker, Peter
Costain, A. P.
Glyn, Dr. Alan


Body, Richard
Critchley, Julian
Codber, Rt. Hn. J. B.


Bossom, Sir Clive
Crouch, David
Gorst, John


Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hn. John
d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Sir Henry
Gower, Raymond


Braine, Bernard
d'Avigdor-Go!dsmid,Maj,-Gen.Jamcs
Gray, Hamish


Bray, Ronald
Dodds-Parker, Douglas
Green, Alan


Brewis, John
Drayson, G. B.
Grieve, Percy


Brocklebank-Fowler, Christopher
du Cann, Rt. Hn. Edward
Griffiths, Eldon (Bury Et. Edmunds)


Brown, Sir Edward (Bath)
Dykes, Hugh
Gummer, Setwyn


Bruce-Gardyne, J.
Eden, Sir John
Gurden, Harold


Buchanan-Smith, Alick(Angus,N&amp;M)
Edwards, Nicholas (Pembroke)
Hall, Miss Joan (Keighley)







Half, John (Wycombe)
Marten, Neil
Russell, Sir Ronald


Hall-Davis, A. G. F.
Maude, Angus
St. John-Stevas, Norman


Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury)
Mawby, Ray
Scott, Nicholas


Harrison, Col. Sir Harwood (Eye)
Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J.
Scott-Hopkins, James


Harvey, Sir Arthur Vere
Meyer, Sir Anthony
Sharpies, Richard


Haselhurst, Alan
Mills, Peter (Torrington)
Shaw, Michael (Sc'b'gh&amp; Whitby)


Hastings, Stephen
Mills, Stratton (Belfast, N.)
Shelton, William (Clapham)


Hawkins, Paul
Miscampbell, Norman
Simeons, Charles


Hay, John
Mitcheil,Lt.-Col.C.(Aberdeenshire,W)
Smith, Dudley (W'wick&amp; L'mington)


Hayhoe, Barney
Mitchell, David (Basingstoke)
Soref, Harold


Heseltine, Michael
Moate, Roger
Spence, John


Higgins, Terence L.
Motyneaux, James
Sproat, Iain


Hiley, Joseph
Money, Ernie
Stainton, Keith


Hill, John E. B. (Norfolk, S.)
Monks, Mrs. Connie
Stewart-Smith, D. G. (Belper)


Hill, James (Southampton, Test)
Monro, Hector
Stodart, Anthony (Edinburgh, w.)


Holland, Philip
Montgomery, Fergus
Stoddart-Scott, Col. Sir M.


Hornby, Richard
More, Jasper
Stokes, John


Hornsby-Smith,Rt.Hn.Dame Patricia
Morgan, Geraint (Denbigh)
Stuttaford, Dr. Tom


Howell, David (Guildford)
Morgan-Giles, Rear-Adm.
Sutcliffe, John


Howell, Ralph (Norfolk, N.)
Morrison, Charles (Devizes)
Tapsell, Peter


Hunt, John
Mudd, David
Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne)


Hutchison, Michael Clark
Murton, Oscar
Taylor, Frank (Moss Side)


Iremonger, T, L.
Nabarro, Sir Gerald
Taylor, Robert (Croydon, N.W.)


James, David
Neave, Airey
Tebbit, Norman


Jenkin, Patrick (Woodford)
Nicholls, Sir Harmar
Temple, John M.


Jessel, Toby
Noble, Rt. Hn. Michael
Thatcher, Rt. Hn. Mrs. Margaret


Johnson Smith, G. (E. Grinstead)
Normanton, Tom
Thomas, John Stradling (Monmouth)


Jones, Arthur (Northants, S.)
Nott, John
Thompson, Sir Richard (Croydon, S.)


Jopling, Michael
Onslow, Cranley
Tilney, John


Joseph, Rt. Hn. Sir Keith
Oppenheim, Mrs. Sally
Trafford, Dr. Anthony


Kaberry, Sir Donald
Orr, Capt. L. P. S.
Trew, Peter


Kellett, Mrs. Elaine
Owen, Idris (Stockport, N.)
Tugendhat, Christopher


Kershaw, Anthony
Page, Graham (Crosby)
Turton, Rt. Hn. R. H.


Kimball, Marcus
Page, John (Harrow, W.)
Vaughan, Dr. Gerard


King, Evelyn (Dorset, S.)
Parkinson, Cecil (Enfield, W.)
Vickers, Dame Joan


King, Tom (Bridgwater)
Percival, Ian
Waddington, David


Kinsey, J. R.
Peyton, Rt. Hn. John
Walder, David (Clitheroe)


Kirk, Peter
Pike, Miss Mervyn
Walker, Rt. Hn. Peter (Worcester)


Kitson, Timothy
Pink, R. Bonner
Wall, Patrick


Knight, Mrs. Jill
Pounder, Rafton
Walters, Dennis


Knox, David
Price, David (Eastleigh)
Ward, Dame Irene


Lambton, Antony
Prior, Rt. Hn. J. M. L.
Weatherill, Bernard


Lane, David
Proudfoot, Wilfred
Wells, John (Maidstone)


Langford-Holt, Sir John
Pym, Rt. Hn. Francis
White, Roger (Graveeend)


Legge-Bourke, Sir Harry
Qucnnell, Miss J. M.
Wiggin, Jerry


Le Marchant, Spencer
Raison, Timothy
Wilkinson, John


Lloyd, Ian (P'tsm'th, Langstone)
Reed, Laurance (Bolton, E.)
Wolrige-Cordon, Patrick


Longden, Gilbert
Rees, Peter (Dover)
Wood, Rt. Hn. Richard


Loveridge, John
Rees-Davies, W. R.
Woodhouse, Hn. Christopher


McAdden, Sir Stephen
Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon
Woodnutt, Mark


McCrindle, R. A.
Ridley, Hn. Nicholas
Worsley, Marcus


McLaren, Martin
Ridsdale, Julian
Wylie, Rt. Hn. N. R.


Maclean, Sir Fitzroy
Roberts, Michael (Cardiff, N.)
Younger, Hn. George


McNair-Wrison, Michael
Roberts, Wyn (Conway)



McNair-Wilson, Patrick (NewForest)
Rodgers, Sir John (Sevenoaks)
TELLERS FOR THE AYES:


Maddan, Martin
Rossi, Hugh (Hornsey)
Mr. Victor Goodhew and


Madel, David
Rost, Peter
Mr. Keith Speed.


Maginnis, John E.
Royle, Anthony





NOES


Abse, Leo
Corbet, Mrs. Freda
Freeson, Reginald


Ashley, Jack
Crosland, Rt. Hn. Anthony
Golding, John


Bagier, Gordon A. T,
Dalyell, Tam
Gordon Walker, Rt, Hn. P. C.


Barnett, Joel
Davidson, Arthur
Gourlay, Harry


Bennett, James (Glasgow, Bridgeton)
Davies, Denzil (Llanelly)
Grant, George (Morpeth)


Bidwell, Sydney
Davies, Ifor (Gower)
Griffiths, Eddie (Brightside)


Bishop, E. S.
Deakins, Eric
Griffiths, Will (Exchange)


Blenkinsop, Arthur
Delargy, H. J.
Hamilton, William (Fife, W.)


Booth, Albert
Dell, Rt. Hn. Edmund
Hamling, William


Boyden, James (Bishop Auckland)
Dempsey, James
Harnnan, William (G'gow, Maryhill)


Brown, Hugh D. (G'gow, Provan)
Doig, Peter
Harper, Joseph


Buchan, Norman
Dormand, J. D.
Harrison, Walter (Wakefield)


Butler, Mrs. Joyce (Wood Green)
Douglas-Mann, Bruce
Hattersley, Roy


Campbell, I. (Dunbartonshire, W.)
Edwards, Robert (Bilston)
Healey, Rt. Hn. Denis


Carmichael, Neil
Edwards, William (Merioneth)
Heifer, Eric S.


Carter, Ray (Birmingh'm, Northfield)
Ellis, Tom
Horam, John


Carter-Jones, Lewis (Eccles)
English, Michael
Houghton, Rt. Hn. Douglas


Cocks, Michael (Bristol, S.)
Evans, Fred
Howell, Denis (Small Heath)


Cohen, Stanley
Fletcher, Raymond (Ilkeston)
Hughes, Rt. Hn. Cledwyn (Anglesey)


Coleman, Donald
Fletcher, Ted (Darlington)
Jenkins, Hugh (Putney)


Concannon, J. D.
Foley, Maurice
Jenkins, Rt. Hn. Roy (Stechford)


Conlan, Bernard
Ford, Ben
Johnson, Carol (Lewisham, S.)







Johnson, dames (K'ston-on-Hull, W.)
Marquand, David
Roderick,Caerwyn E.(Br'c'n&amp;R'dnor)


Johnson, Walter (Derby, S.)
Mason, Rt. Hn. Roy
Ron, Rt. Hn. William (Kilmarnock)


Jones, Barry (Flint, E.)
Meacher, Michael
Sheldon, Robert (Ashton-under-Lyne)


Jones, Dan (Burnley)
Mellish, Rt. Hn. Robert
Shore, Rt. Hn. Peter (Stepney)


Jones,Rt.Hn.Sir Elwyn(W.Ham,S.)
Milne, Edward (Blyth)
Skinner, Dennis


Jones, Gwynoro (Carmarthen)
Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe)
Smith, John (Lanarkshire, N.)


Judo, Frank
Moyle, Roland
Spriggs, Leslie


Kaufman, Gerald
O'Halloran, Michael
Stallard, A. W.


Kelley, Richard
O'Malley, Brian
Strauss, Rt. Hn. G. R.


Kinnock, Neil
Oram, Bert
Summerskill, Hn. Dr. Shirley


Lambie, David
Orbach, Maurice
Thomas,RtHn.George (Cardiff,W.)


Lamondal, James
Orme, Stanley
Thomas, Jeffrey (Abertillery)


Lawson, George
Oswald, Thomas
Tomney, Frank


Leadbitter, Ted
Owen, Dr. David (Plymouth, Sutton)
Tuck, Raphael


Lee, Rt. Hn, Frederick
Parker, John (Dagenham)
Urwin, T. W.


Lever, Rt. Hn. Harold
Parry, Robert (Liverpool, Exchange)
Wainwright, Edwin


Lewis, Arthur (W. Ham, N.)
Pavitt, Laurie
Wallace, George


Lewis, Ron (Carlisle)
Peart, Rt. Hn. Fred
Watkins. David




Weitzman, David


Loughlin, Charles
Pendry, Tom
White. James (Glasgow, Pollok)


Lyon, Alexander W. (York)
Pemtland, Norman
Whitlock, William


Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson
Perry, Ernest G.
whitlock, William


McElhone, Frank
Prentice, Rt. Hn. Reg.
Willey, Rt. Hn. Frederick




Williams, Alan (Swansea, W.)


McGuire, Michael
Probert, Arthur
Williams, W. T. (Warrington)


Mackie, John
Rhodes, Geoffrey



McMillan, Tom (Glasgow, C.)
Richard, Ivor
TELLERS FOR THE NOES:


McNamaira, J. Kevin
Roberts, Albert (Normanton)
Mr. Ernest Armstrong and


MacPherson, Malcolm
Robertson, John (Paisley)
Mr. James Hamilton.

Division No. 328.]
AYES
[10.27 a.m.


Alison, Michael (Barkston Ash)
Edwards, Nicholas (Pembroke)
Hutchison, Michael Clark


Allason, James (Hemel Hempstead)
Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carshalton)
Iremonger, T. L.


Amery, Rt. Hn. Julian
Elliott, R. W. (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne,N.)
James, David


Archer, Jeffrey (Louth)
Emery, Peter
Jenkin, Patrick (Woodford)


Astor, John
Eyre, Reginald
Jessel, Toby


Atkins, Humphrey
Farr, John
Johnson Smith, G. (E. Grinstead)


Awdry, Daniel
Felt, Anthony
Jones, Arthur (Northants, S.)


Baker, Kenneth (St. Marylebone)
Fenner, Mrs. Peggy
Jopling, Michael


Baker, W. H. K. (Banff)
Finsberg, Geoffrey (Hampstead)
Joseph, Rt. Hn. Sir Keith


Batsford, Brian
Fisher, Nigel (Surbiton)
Kellett, Mrs, Elaine


Beamish, Col. Sir Tufton
Fletcher-Cooke, Charles
Kershaw, Anthony


Bennett, Sir Frederic (Torquay)
Fortescue, John
Kimball, Marcus


Bennett, Dr. Reginald (Gosport)
Foster, Sir John
King, Evelyn (Dorset, S.)


Benyon, W.
Fowler, Norman
King, Tom (Bridgwater)


Berry, Hn. Anthony
Fry, Peter
Kinsey, J. R.


Biffen, John
Galbraith, Hn. T. C.
Kirk, Peter


Biggs-Davison, John
Cibson-Watt, David
Kitson, Timothy


Blaker, Peter
Gilmour, Ian (Norfolk, C.)
Knox, David


Body, Richard
Gilmour, Sir John (Fife, E.)
Lambton, Antony


Bossom, Sir Clive
Clyn, Dr. Alan
Lane, David


Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hn. John
Godber, Rt. Hn. J. B.
Langford-Holt, Sir John


Braine, Bernard
Goodhew, Victor
Legge-Bourke, Sir Harry


Bray, Ronald
Gorst, John
Le Marchant, Spencer


Brewis, John
Gower, Raymond
Lloyd, Ian (P'tsm'th, Langstone)


Brocklebank-Fowler, Christopher
Gray, Hamish
Longden, Gilbert


Brown, Sir Edward (Bath)
Green, Alan
Loveridge, John


Bruce-Gardyne, J,
Grieve, Percy
McAdden, Sir Stephen


Buchanan-Smith, Alick(Arigus,N&amp;M)
Griffiths, Eldon (Bury St. Edmunds)
McCrindle, R. A.


Bullus, Sir Eric
Cummer, Selwyn
McLaren, Martin


Burden, F. A.
Garden, Harold
Maclean, Sir Fitzroy


Butler, Adam (Bosworth)
Hall, Miss Joan (Kelghley)
McNair-Wilson, Michael


Campbell, Rt.Hn.C.(Moray&amp;Nalm)
Halt, John (Wycombe)
McNair-Wilson, Patrick (NewForest)


Carr, Rt. Hn. Robert
Hall-Davis, A. G. F.
Maddan, Martin


Cary, Sir Robert
Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury)
Maginnis, John E.


Channon, Paul
Hannam, John (Exeter)
Marten, Neil


Chapman, Sydney
Harrison, Col. Sir Harwood (Eye)
Maude, Angus


Chichester-Clark, R.
Harvey, Sir Arthur Vene
Mawby, Ray


Churchill, W. S.
Haselhurst, Alan
Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J.


Clark, William (Surrey, E.)
Hasting*, Stephen
Meyer, Sir Anthony


Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe)
Hay, John
Mills, Peter (Torrington)


Clegg, Walter
Hayhoe, Barney
Mills, Stratton (Belfast, N.)


Cooke, Robert
Heseltine, Michael
Miscampbell, Norman


Cooper, A. E.
Higgins, Terence L.
Mitchell, Lt.-Col'.C.(Aberdeenshire, W)


Costain, A. P.
Hiley, Joseph
Mitchell, David (Basingstoke)


Critchley, Julian
Hill, John E. B. (Norfolk, S.)
Moate, Roger


Crouch, David
Hill, James (Southampton, Test)
Molyneux, James


d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Sir Henry
Holland, Philip
Money, Emle


d'Avigdor-Goldsmid,Mai.-Gen.James
Hordern, Peter
Monks, Mrs. Connie


Dodds-Parker, Douglas
Homby, Richard
Monro, Hector


Drayson, G. B.
Hornsby-Smith.Rt.Hn.Dame Patricia
Montgomery, Fergus


du cann, Rt. Hn. Edward
Howell, David (Guildford)
More, Jasper


Dykes, Hugh
Howell, Ralph (Norfolk, N.)
Morgan, Geraint (Denbigh)


Eden, Sir John
Hunt, John
Morgan-Giles, Rear-Adm.







Morrison, Charles (Devizes)
Ridsdale, Julian
Tebbit, Norman


Mudd, David
Roberts, Michael (Cardiff, N.)
Temple, John M.


Murton, Oscar
Roberts, Wyn (Conway)
Thatcher, Rt. Hn. Mrs. Margaret


Nabarro, Sir Gerald
Rodgers, Sir John (Sevenoaks)
Thomas, John Stradling (Monmouth)


Neave, Airey
Rossi, Hugh (Hornsey)
Thompson, Sir Richard (Croydon, S.)


Nicholls, Sir Harmar
Host, Peter
Tilney, John


Noble, Rt. Hn. Michael
Royle, Anthony
Trafford, Dr. Anthony


Normanton, Tom
Russell, Sir Ronald
Trew, Peter


Nott, John
St. John-Stevas, Norman
Tugendhat, Christopher


Onslow, Cranley
Scott, Nicholas
Turton, Rt. Hn. R. H.


Oppenheim, Mrs. Sally
Scott-Hopkins, James
Vaughan, Dr. Gerard


Orr, Capt. L. P. S.
Sharpies, Richard
Vickers, Dame Joan


Osborn, John
Shaw, Michael (Sc'b'gh&amp; Whitby)
Waddington, David


Owen, Idris (Stockport, N.)
Shelton, William (Clapham)
Walder, David (Clitheroc)


Page, Graham (Crosby)
Simeons, Charles
Walker, Rt. Hn. Peter (Worcester)


Page, John (Harrow, W.)
Skeet, T. H. H.
Wall, Patrick


Percival, Ian
Smith, Dudley (W'wick&amp; L'mington)
Walters, Dennis


Peyton, Rt. Hn. John
Soref, Harold
Ward, Dame Irene


Pike, Miss Mervyn
Speed, Keith
Wells, John (Maidstone)


Pink, R. Bonner
Spence, John
White, Roger (Gravesend)


Pounder, Rafton
Sproat, Iain
Wiggin, Jerry


Price, David (Eastleigh)
Stainton, Keith
Wilkinson, John


Prior, Rt. Hn. J. M. L.
Stewart-Smith, D. G. (Belper)
Wolrige-Gordon, Patrick


Proudfoot, Wilfred
Stodart, Anthony (Edinburgh, w.)
Wood, Rt. Hn. Richard




Woodhouse, Hn. Christopher


Pym, Rt. Hn. Francis
Stoddart-Scott, Col. Sir M.
Woodnutt, Mark


Quennell, Miss J. M.
Stokes, John
Worsley,Marcus


Raison, Timothy
Stuttaford, Dr. Tom
Wylie, Rt. Hn. N. R.


Reed, Laurance (Bolton, E.)
Sutcliffe, John
Younger, Hn. George


Rees, Peter (Dover)
Tapsell, Peter



Rees-Davies, W. R.
Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne)
TELLERS FOR THE AYES:


Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon
Taylor, Frank (Moss Side)
Mr. Bernard Weatherill and


Ridley, Hn. Nicholas
Taylor, Robert (Croydon, N.W.)
Mr. Paul Hawkins.




NOES


Abse, Leo
Golding, John
Mason, Rt. Hn. Roy


Ashley, Jack
Gordon Walker, Rt. Hn. P. C.
Mellish, Rt. Hn. Robert


Bagier, Gordon A. T.
Gourlay, Harry
Milne, Edward (Blyth)


Barnett, Joel
Grant, George (Morpeth)
Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe)


Bennett, James (Glasgow, Bridgeton;
Griffiths, Eddie (Brightside)
Moyle, Roland


Bidwell, Sydney
Griffiths, Will (Exchange)
O'Halloran, Michael


Bishop, E. S.
Hamilton, William (Fife, W.)
O'Malley, Brian


Blenkinsop, Arthur
Hamling, William
Oram, Bert


Boardman, H. (Leigh)
Hannan, William (G'gow, Maryhill)
Orbach, Maurice


Booth, Albert
Harper, Joseph
Orme, Stanley


Boyden, James (Bishop Auckland)
Harrison, Walter (Wakefield)
Oswald, Thomas


Brown, Hugh D. (G'gow, Provan)
Hattersley, Roy
Owen, Dr. David (Plymouth, Sutton)


Buchan, Norman
Healey, Rt. Hn. Denis
Parker, John (Dagenham)


Butler, Mrs. Joyce (Wood Green)
Heffer, Eric S.
Parry, Robert (Liverpool, Exchange)


Campbell, I. (Dunbartonshire, W.)
Horam, John
Pavitt, Laurie


Carmichael, Neil
Houghton, Rt. Hn. Douglas
Peart, Rt. Hn. Fred


Carter, flay (Birmingh'm, Northfield)
Howell, Denis (Small Heath)
Pendry, Tom


Carter-Jones, Lewis (Eccles)
Hughes, Rt. Hn. Cledwyn (Anglesey)
Pentland, Norman


Castle, Rt. Hn. Barbara
Jenkins, Hugh (Putney)
Perry, Ernest G.


Cocks, Michael (Bristol, S.)
Jenkins, Rt. Hn. Roy (Stechford)
Prentice, Rt. Hn. Reg.


Cohen, Stanley
Johnson, Carol (Lewisham, S.)
Prescott, John


Coleman, Donald
Johnson, James (K'ston-on-HuH, W.)
Price, J. T. (Westhoughton)


Concannon, J. D.
Johnson, Walter (Derby, S.)
Probert, Arthur


Conlan, Bernard
Jones, Barry (Flint, E.)
Rhodes, Geoffrey


Corbet, Mrs. Freda
Jones, Dan (Burnley)
Richard, Ivor


Crosland, Rt. Hn. Anthony
Jones,Rt.Hn.Sir Elwyn(W.Ham,S.)
Roberts, Albert (Normanton)


Dalyell, Tam
Jones, Gwynoro (Carmarthen)



Davidson, Arthur
Judd, Frank
Robertson, John (Paisley)


Davies, Denzil (Llanelly)
Kaufman, Gerald
Roderick, Caerwyn E.(Br'c'n&amp;R'dnor)


Davies, lfor (Gower)
Kelley, Richard
Ross, Rt. Hn. William (Kilmarnock)


Deakins, Eric
Kirmock, Neil
Sheldon, Robert (Ashton-under-Lyne)


Delargy, H. J.
Lambie, David
Shore, Rt. Hn. Peter (Stepney)


Dell, Rt. Hn. Edmund
Lamond, James
Skinner, Dennis


Dempsey, James
Lawson, George
Smith, John (Lanarkshire, N.)


Doig, Peter
Leadbitter, Ted
Spriggs, Leslie


Dormand, J. D.
Lee, Rt. Hn. Frederick
Staltard, A. W.


Douglas-Mann, Bruce
Lever, Rt. Hn. Harold
Strauss, Rt. Hn. G. R.


Edwards, Robert (Bilston)
Lewis, Arthur (W. Ham, N.)
Summerskill, Hn. Dr. Shirley


Edwards, William (Merioneth)
Lewis, Ron (Carlisle)
Taverne, Dick


Ellis, Tom
Loughlin, Charles
Thomas,Rt.Hn.George (Cardiff.W.)


English, Michael
Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson
Thomas, Jeffrey (Abertillery)


Evans, Fred
McElhone, Frank
Tomney, Frank


Fletcher, Raymond (Ilkeston)
McGuire, Michael
Tuck, Raphael


Fletcher, Ted (Darlington)
McMillan, Tom (Glasgow, C.)
Urwin, T. W.


Foley, Maurice
McNamara, J. Kevin
Wainwright, Edwin


Ford, Ben
MacPherson, Malcolm
Wallace, George


Freeson, Reginald
Marquand, David
Watkins, David







Weitzman, David
Willey, Rt. Hn. Frederick
TELLERS FOR THE NOES:


White, James (Glasgow, Pollok)
Williams, Alan (Swansea, W.)
Mr. Ernest Armstrong and


Whitlock, William
Williams, W. T. (Warrington)
Mr. James Hamilton.

Division No. 329.]
AYES
[10.37.a.m.


Adley, Robert
Godber, Rt. Hn. J. B.
Mills, Peter (Tornington)


Alison, Michael (Barkston Ash)
Goodhew, Victor
Mills, Stratton (Belfast, N.)


Allson, James (Hemel Hempstead)
Gorst, John
Miscampbell, Norman


Amery, Rt. Hn. Julian
Cower, Raymond
Mitchell,Lt.-Col.C.(Aberdeenshire, W)


Archer, Jeffrey (Louth)
Gray, Hamish
Mitchell, David (Basingstoke)


Astor, John
Green, Alan
Moate, Roger


Atkins, Humphrey
Grieve, Percy
Molyneaux, James


Awdry, Daniel
Griffiths, Eldon (Bury St. Edmunds)
Money, Ernie


Baker, Kenneth (St, Marylebone)
Gummer, Selwyn
Monks, Mrs. Connie


Baker, W. H. K. (Banff)
Gurden, Harold
Monro, Hector


Batsford, Brian
Hall, Miss Joan (Keighley)
Montgomery, Fergus


Beamish, Col. Sir Tufton
Hall, John (Wycombe)
Morgan, Geraint (Denbigh)


Bennett, Sir Frederic (Torquay)
Hall-Davis, A. G. F.
Morgan-Giles, Rear-Adm.


Bennett, Dr. Reginald (Gosport)
Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury)
Morrison, Charles (Devizes)


Berry, Hn. Anthony
Hannam, John (Exeter)
Mudd, David


Biffen, John
Harrison, Col. Sir Harwood (Eye)
Murton, Oscar


Biggs-Davison, John
Harvey, Sir Arthur Vere
Nabarro, Sir Gerald


Blaker, Peter
Haselhurst, Alan
Neave, Airey


Body, Richard
Hastings, Stephen
Nicholls, Sir Harmar


Boscawen, Robert
Hawkins, Paul
Noble, Rt. Hn. Michael


Bossom, Sir Clive
Hay, John
Normanton, Tom


Bowden, Andrew
Hayhoe, Barney
Nott, John


Boyd-Carpenter, Rt, Hn. John
Heseltine, Michael
Onslow, Cranley


Braine, Bernard
Hicks, Robert
Oppenheim, Mrs. Sally


Bray, Ronald
Higgins, Terence L.
Orr, Capt. L, P. S.


Brewis, John
Hiley, Joseph
Osborn, John


Brocklebank-Fowler, Christopher
Hill, John E. B. (Norfolk, S.)
Owen, Idris (Stockport, N.)


Brown, Sir Edward (Bath)
Hill, James (Southampton, Test)
Page, Graham (Crosby)


Bruce-Gardyne, J.
Holland, Philip
Page, John (Harrow, W.)


Buchanan-Smith, Alick(Angua,N&amp;M)
Hordern, Peter
Percival, Ian


Buck, Antony
Hornby, Richard
Peyton, Rt. Hn. John


Bullus, Sir Eric
Hornsby-Smith,Rt.Hn.Dame Patricia
Pike, Miss Mervyn


Burden, F. A.
Howell, David (Guildford)
Pink, R. Bonner


Butler, Adam (Bosworth)
Howell, Ralph (Norfolk, N.)
Pounder, Rafton


Campbell, Rt.Hn.G.(Moray&amp;Nairn)
Hunt, John
Price, David (Eastleigh)


Carr, Rt. Hn. Robert
Hutchison, Michael Clark
Prior, Rt. Hn. J. M. L.


Cary, Sir Robert
Iremonger, T. L.
Proudfoot, Wilfred


Channon, Paul
James, David
Pym, Rt. Hn. Francis


Chapman, Sydney
Jenkin, Patrick (Woodford)
Quennell, Miss J. M.


Chichester-Clark, R.
Jessel, Toby
Raison, Timothy


Churchill, W. S.
Johnson Smith, G. (E. Grinstead)
Reed, Laurance (Bolton, E.)


Clark, William (Surrey, E.)
Jones, Arthur (Northants, S.)
Rees, Peter (Dover)


Clarke, Kenneth (Rusthcliffe)
Jopling, Michael
Rees-Davies, W. R.


Clegg, Walter
Joseph, Rt. Hn. Sir Keith
Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon


Cooke, Robert
Kellett, Mrs. Elaine
Ridley, Hn. Nicholas


Cooper, A. E.
Kershaw, Anthony
Ridsdale, Julian


Cormack, Patrick
Kimball, Marcus
Roberts, Michael (Cardiff, N.)


Costain, A. P.
King, Evelyn (Dorset, S.)
Roberts, Wyn (Conway)


Critchley, Julian
King, Tom (Bridgwater)
Rodgere, Sir John (Sevenoaks)


Crouch, David
Kinsey, J. R.
Rossi, Hugh (Hornsey)


d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Sir Henry
Kirk, Peter
Rost, Peter


d'Avigdor-Goldsmid,Maj.-Gen.James
Kitson, Timothy
Royle, Anthony


Dodds-Parker, Douglas
Knight, Mrs. Jill
Russell, Sir Ronald


Drayson, G. B.
Knox, David
Scott, Nicholas


du Cann, Rt. Hn. Edward
Lambton, Antony
Scott-Hopkins, James


Dykes, Hugh
Lane, David
Sharpies, Richard


Eden, Sir John
Langford-Holt, Sir John
Shaw, Michael (Sc'b'gh&amp; Whitby)


Edwards, Nicholas (Pembroke)
Legge-Bourke, Sir Harry
Shelton, William (Clapham)


Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carshalton)
Le Marchant, Spencer
Simeons, Charles


Elliott, R. W. (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne,N.)
lloyd, Ian (P'tsm'th, Langstone)
Sinclair, Sir George


Emery, Peter
Longden, Gilbert
Skeet, T. H. H.


Eyre, Reginald
Loveridge, John
Soref, Harold


Farr, John
McAdden, Sir Stephen
Speed, Keith


Fell, Anthony
McCrindle, R. A.
Spence, John


Fenner, Mrs. Peggy
McLaren, Martin
Sproat, Iain


Fidler, Michael
Maclean, Sir Fitzroy
Stainton, Keith


Finsberg, Geoffrey (Hampstead)
McNair-Wilson, Michael
Stewart-Smith, D. G. (Belper)


Fisher, Nigel (Surbiton)
McNair-Wilson, Patrick (NewForest)
Stodart, Anthony (Edinburgh, W.)


Fletcher-Cooke, Charles
Maddan, Martin
Stoddart-Scott, Col. Sir M.


Foster, Sir John
Madel, David
Stokes, John


Fowler, Norman
Maginnis, John E.
Stuttaford, Dr. Tom


Fry, Peter
Marten, Neil
Sutcliffe, John


Galbraith, Hn. T. G.
Mather, Carol
Tapsell, Peter


Gibson-Watt, David
Maude, Angus
Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne)


Gilmour, Ian (Norfolk, C.)
Mawby, Ray
Taylor, Frank (Moss Side)


Gilmour, Sir John (Fife, E.)
Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J.
Taylor, Robert (Croydon, N.W.)


Glyn, Dr. Alan
Meyer, Sir Anthony
Tebbit, Norman







Temple, John M.
Waddington, David
Wood, Rt. Hn. Richard


Thatcher, Rt. Hn. Mrs. Margaret
Walder, David (Clitheroe)
Woodhouse, Hn. Christopher


Thomas, John Stradling (Monmouth)
Walker Rt. Hn. Peter (Worcester)
Woodnutt, Mark


Thomas, Rt. Hn. Peter (Hendon, S.)
Wall, Patrick
Worsley, Marcus


Thompson, Sir Richard (Croydon, S.)
Walters, Dennis
Wylie, Rt. Hn. N. R.


Tilney, John
Ward, Dame Irene
Younger, Hn. George


Trafford, Dr. Anthony
Weatherill, Bernard



Trew, Peter
Wells, John (Maidstone)
TELLERS FOR THE AYES:


Tugendhat, Christopher
White, Roger (Gravesend)
Mr. Jasper More and


Turton, Rt. Hn. R. H.
Wiggin, Jerry
Mr. Tim Fortescue.


Vaughan, Dr. Gerard
Wilkinson, John



vickers, Dame Joan
wolrige-Gordon, Patrick





NOES


Abse, Leo
Griffiths, Eddie (Brightside)
O'Halloran, Michael


Ashley, Jack
Griffiths, Will (Exchange)
O'Malley, Brian


Bagier, Gordon A. T.
Hamilton, William (Fife, W.)
Oram, Bert


Barnett, Joel
Hamling, William
Orbach, Maurice


Bennett, James (Glasgow, Bridgeton)
Hannan, William
Orme, Stanley


Bidwell, Sydney
Harper, Joseph
Oswald, Thomas


Bishop, E. S.
Harrison, Walter (Wakefield)
Owen, Dr. David (Plymouth, Sutton)


Blenkinsop, Arthur
Hattersley, Roy
Parker, John (Dagenham)


Boardman, H. (Leigh)
Healey, Rt. Hn. Denis
Parry, Robert (Liverpool, Exchange)


Booth, Albert
Heffer, Eric S.
Pavitt, Laurie


Boyden, James (Bishop Auckland)
Horam, John
Peart, Rt. Hn. Fred


Brown, Hugh D. (G'gow, Provan)
Houghton, Rt. Hn. Douglas
Pendry, Tom


Buchan, Norman
Howell, Denis (Small Heath)
Pentland, Norman


Butler, Mrs. Joyce (Wood Green)
Hughes, Rt. Hn. Cledwyn (Anglesey)
Perry, Ernest G.


Campbell, I. (Dunbartonshire, W.)
Jenkins, Hugh (Putney)
Prentice, Rt. Hn, Reg.


Carmichael, Neil
Jenkins, Rt. Hn. Roy (Stechford)
Prescott, John


Carter, Ray (Birmingh'm, Northfield)
Johnson, Carol (Lewisham, S.)
Price, J. T. (Westhoughton)


Carter-Jones, Lewis (Eccles)
Johnson, James (K'ston-on-Hull, W.)
Probert, Arthur


Cocks, Michael (Bristol, S.)
Johnson, Walter (Derby, S.)
Rhodes, Geoffrey


Cohen, Stanley
Jones, Barry (Flint, E.)
Richard, Ivor


Coleman, Donald
Jones, Dan (Burnley)
Roberts, Albert (Normanton)


Concannon, J. D.
Jones,Rt.Hn.Sir Elwyn(W.Ham,S.)
Robertson, John (Paisley)


Conlan, Bernard
Jones, Gwynoro (Carmarthen)
Roderick, Caerwyn E.(Br'c'n&amp;R'dnor)


Corbet, Mrs. Freda
Judd, Frank
Ross, Rt. Hn. William (Kilmarnock)


Crosland, Rt. Hn. Anthony
Kaufman, Gerald
Sheldon, Robert (Ashton-under-Lyne)


Dalyell, Tam
Kelley, Richard
Shore, Rt. Hn. Peter (Stepney)


Davidson, Arthur
Kinnock, Neil
Skinner, Dennis


Davies, Denzil (Llanelly)
Lamble, David
Smith, John (Lanarkshire, N.)


Davies, Ifor (Gower
Lamond, James
Spriggs, Leslie


Deakins, Eric
Lawson, George
Stallard, A. W.


Delargy, H. J.
Leadbitter, Ted
Strauss, Rt. Hn. G. R.


Dell, Rt. Hn. Edmund
Lee, Rt. Hn. Frederick
Summerskill, Hn. Dr. Shirley


Dempsey, James
Lever, Rt. Hn. Harold
Taverne, Dick


Doig, Peter
Lewis, Arthur (West Ham, N.)
Thomas,Rt.Hn.George (Cardiff,W.)


Dormand, J. D.
Lewis, Ron (Carlisle)
Thomas, Jeffrey (Abertillery)


Douglas-Mann, Bruce
Loughlin, Charles
Tomney, Frank


Edwards, Robert (Bilston)
Lyon, Alexander W. (York)
Tuck, Raphael


Edwards, William (Merioneth)
Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson
Urwin, T. W.


Ellis, Tom
McElhone, Frank
Wainwright, Edwin


English, Michael
McGuire, Michael
Wallace, George


Evans, Fred
Mackie, John
Weitzman, David


Fletcher, Raymond (Ilkeston)
McMillan, Tom (Glasgow, C.)
White, James (Glasgow, Pollok)


Fletcher, Ted (Darlington)
McNamara, J. Kevin
Whittlock, William


Foley, Maurice
Macpherson, Malcolm
Willey, Rt. Hn. Frederick


Ford, Ben
Marquand, David
Williams, Alan (Swansea, W.)


Freeson, Reginald
Mason, Rt. Hn. Roy
Williams, W. T. (Warrington)


Golding, John
Mellish, Rt. Hn. Robert



Gordon Walker, Rt. Hn. P. C.
Milne, Edward (Blyth)
TELLERS FOR THE NOES:


Gourlay, Harry
Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe)
Mr. Ernest Armstrong and


Grant, George (Morpeth)
Moyle, Roland
Mr. James Hamilton

Division No. 330.]
AYES
[10.48 a.m.


Adley, Robert
Biggs-Davison, John
Bullus, Sir Eric


Alison, Michael (Barkston Ash)
Blaker, Peter
Burden, F. A.


Allason, James (Hemel Hempstead)
Body, Richard
Butler, Adam (Bosworth)


Archer, Jeffrey (Louth)
Boscawen, Robert
Campbell,Rt.Hn.G.(Moray&amp;Nairn)


Astor, John
Bossom, Sir clive
Carr, Rt. Hn. Robert


Atkins, Humphrey
Bowden, Andrew
Cary, Sir Robert


Awdry, Daniel
Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hn. John
Channon, Paul


Baker, Kenneth (St. Marylebone)
Braine, Bernard
Chapman, Sydney


Baker, W. H. K. (Banff)
Bray, Ronald
Chichester-Clark, R.


Batsford, Brian
Brewis, John
Churchill, W. S.


Beamish, Col. Sir Tufton
Brocklebank-Fowler, Christopher
Clark, William (Surrey, E.)


Bennett, Sir Frederic (Torquay)
Brown, Sir Edward (Bath)
Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe)


Bennett, Or. Reginald (Gosport)
Bruce-Gardyne, J.
Clegg, Walter


Berry, Hn. Anthony
Buchanan-Smith, Alick(Angus,N&amp;M)
Cockeram, Erie


Biffen, John
Buck, Antony
Cooke, Robert







Cooper, A. E.
Joseph, Rt. Hn. Sir Keith
Quennell, Miss J. M.


Cormack, Patrick
Kaberry, Sir Donald
Raison, Timothy


Costain, A. P.
Kellett, Mrs. Elaine
Reed, Laurence (Bolton, E.)


Critchley, Julian
Kershaw, Anthony
Rees, Peter (Dover)


Crouch, David
Kimball, Marcus
Rees-Davies, W. R.


d'Avigdor-Coldsmid, Sir Henry
King, Evelyn (Dorset, S.)
Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon


d'Avigdor-Goldsmid,Ma|.-Gen.James
Kinsey, J. R.
Ridley, Hn. Nicholas


Dodds-Parker, Douglas
Kirk, Peter
Ridsdale, Julian


Drayson, G. B.
Kitson, Timothy
Roberts, Michael (Cardiff, N.)


du Cann, Rt. Hn. Edward
Knight, Mrs. Jill
Roberts, Wyn (Conway)


Dykes, Hugh
Knox, David
Rodgers, Sir John (Sevenoaks)


Eden, Sir John
Lambton, Antony
Rossi, Hugh (Hornsey)


Edwards, Nicholas (Pembroke)
Lane, David
Rost, Peter


Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carshalton)
Langford-Holt, Sir John
Russell, Sir Ronald


Elliott, R. W. (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne,N.)
Legge-Bourke, Sir Harry
St. John-Stevas, Norman


Emery, Peter
Le Marchant, Spencer
Scott, Nicholas


Eyre, Reginald
Lloyd, Ian (P'tsm'th, Langstone)
Scott-Hopkins, James


Farr, John
Longden, Gilbert
Sharples, Richard


Fell, Anthony
Loveridge, John
Shaw, Michael (Sc'b'gh &amp; Whitby)


Fenner, Mrs. Peggy
McAdden, Sir Stephen
Shelton, William (clapham)


Fidler, Michael
McCrindle, R. A.
Sinclair, Sir George


Finsberg, Geoffrey (Hampstead)
McLaren, Martin
Skeet, T. H. H.


Fisher, Nigel (Surbiton)
Maclean, Sir Fitzroy
Soref, Harold


Fletcher-Cooke, Charles
McMaster, Stanley
Speed, Keith


Fortescue, Tim
McNair-Wilson, Michael
Spence, John


Fowler, Norman
McNair-Wilson, Patrick (NewForest)
Sproat, Iain


Fry, Peter
Maddan, Martin
Stainton, Keith


Calbraith, Hn. T. G.
Madel, David
Stewart-Smith, D. G. (Belper)


Gibson-Watt, David
Maginnis, John E.
Stodart, Anthony (Edinburgh, W.)


Gilmour, Ian (Norfolk, C.)
Marten, Neil
Stoddart,Scott, Col. Sir M.


Gilmour, Sir John (Fife, E.)
Mather, Carol
Stokes, John


Glyn, Dr. Alan
Maude, Angus
Stuttaford, Dr. Tom


Godber, Rt. Hn. J. B.
Mawby, Ray
Sutcliffe, Thomas


Gorst, John
Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J.
Tapsell, Peter


Gower, Raymond
Meyer, Sir Anthony
Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne)


Gray, Hamish
Mills, Peter (Torrington)
Taylor, Frank Moss Side)


Green, Alan
Mills, Stratton (Belfast, N.)
Taylor, Robert (Croydon, N.W.)


Grieve, Percy
Miscampbell, Norman
Tebbitt, Norman


Griffiths, Eldon (Bury St. Edmunds)
Mitchel,Lt.-Cot.C.(Aberdeenshire,W)
Temple, John M.


Gummer, Selwyn
Mitchell, David (Basingstoke)
Thatcher, Rt. Hn. Mrs. Margaret


Gurden, Harold
Moate, Roger
Thomas, John Stradling (Monmouth)


Hall, Miss Joan (Keighlcy)
Molyneaux, James
Thomas, Rt. Hn. Peter (Hendon,S.)


Halt, John (Wycombe)
Money, Ernie
Thompson, Sir Richard (Croydon, S.)


Hall-Davis, A. G. F.
Monks, Mrs. Connie
Tilney, John


Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury)
Monro, Hestor
Trafford, Dr. Anthony


Hannam, John (Exeter)
Montgomery, Fergus
Trew, Peter


Harrison, Col. Sir Harwood (Eye)
More, Jasper
Tugendhat, Christopher


Harvey, Sir Arthur Vere
Morgan, Geraint (Denbigh)
Turton, Rt. Hn. R. H.


Haselhurst, Alan
Morgan-Giles, Rear-Adm.
Vaughan, Dr. Gerard


Hastings, Stephen
Morison, Charles (Devizes)
Vickers, Dame Joan


Hawkins, Paul
Mudd, David
Waddington, David


Hay, John
Murton, Oscar
Walder, David (Clitheroe)


Hayhoe, Barney
Nabarro, Sir Gerald
Walker, Rt. Hn. Peter (Worcester)


Heseltine, Michael
Neave, Airey
Wall, Patrick


Hicks, Robert
Nicholls, Sir Harmar
Walters, Dennis


Higgins, Terence L.
Noble, Rt. Hn. Michael
Ward, Dame Irene


Hiley, Joseph
Normanton, Tom
Warren, Kenneth


Hill, John E. B. (Norfolk, S.)
Nott, John
Weatherill, Bernard


Hill, James (Southampton, Test)
Onslow, Cranley
Wells, John (Maidstone)


Holland, Philip
Oppenheim, Mrs. Sally
White, Roger (Grovesend)


Hordern, Peter
Orr, Capt. L. P. S.
Wiggin, Jerry


Hornby, Richard
Osborn, John
Wilkinson, John


Hornsby Smith,Rt.Hn.DamePatricia
Owen, Idris (Stockport, N.)
Wolrige-Gordon, Patrick


Howell, David (Guildford)
Page, Graham (Crosby)
Wood, Rt. Hn. Richard


Howell, Ralph (Norfolk, N.)
Page, John (Harrow, W.)
Woodhouse, Hn. Christopher


Hunt, John
Percival, Ian
Woodnutt, Mark


Hutchison, Michael Clark
Peyton, Rt. Hn. John
Worsley, Marcus


Iremonger, T. L.
Pike, Miss Mervyn
Wylie, Rt. Hn. N. R.


James, David
Pink, R. Bonner
Younger, Hn. George


Jenkin, Patrick (Woodford)
Pounder, Rafton



Jessel, Toby
Price, David (Eastleigh)
TELLERS FOR THE AYES:


Johnson Smith, G. (E. Grinstead)
Prior, Rt. Hn. J. M. L.
Mr. Hector Monro and


Jones, Arthur (Northants, S.)
Proudfoot, Wilfred
Mr. Victor Goodhew.


Jopling, Michael
Pym, Rt. Hn. Francis





NOES


Abse, Leo
Bishop, E. S.
Brown, Ronald (Shoreditch &amp; F'bury)


Ashley, Jack
Blenkinsop, Arthur
Buchan, Norman


Bagier, Gordon A. T.
Boardman, H. (Leigh)
Butler, Mrs. Joyce (Wood Green)


Barnett, Joel
Booth, Albert
Campbell, I. (Dunbartonshire, W.)


Bennett, James (Glasgow, Bridgeton)
Boyden, James (Bishop Auckland)
Carmichael, Neil


Bidwell, Sydney
Brown, Hugh D.(G'gow, Provan)
Carter, Ray (Birmingh'm, Northfield)







Carter-Jones, Lewis (Eccles)
Houghton, Rt. Hn. Douglas
Oswald, Thomas


Cocks, Michael (Bristol, S.)
Howell, Denis (Small Heath)
Owen, Dr. David (Plymouth, Sutton)


Cohen, Stanley
Hughes, Rt. Hn. Cledwyn (Anglesey)
Parker, John (Dagenham)


Coleman, Donald
Hunter, Adam
Parry, Robert (Liverpool, Exchange)


Concannon, J. D.
Jenkins, Hugh (Putney)
Pavitt, Laurie


Conlan, Bernard
Jenkins, Rt. Hn. Roy (Stechford)
Peart, Rt. Hn. Fred


Corbet, Mrs. Freda
Johnson, Carol (Lewisham, S.)
Pendry, Tom


Crosland, Rt. Hn. Anthony
Johnson, James (K'ston-on-Hull, W.)
Pentland, Norman


Dalyell, Tam
Johnson, Walter (Derby, South)
Perry, Ernest G.


Davidson, Arthur
Jones, Barry (Flint, E.)
Prentice, Rt. Hn. Reg.


Davies, Denzil (Llanelly)
Jones, Dan (Burnley)
Prescott, John


Davies, Ifor (Gower)
Jones,Rt.Hn.Sir Elwyn(W.Ham,S.)
Price, J. T. (Westhoughton)


Deakins, Eric
Jones, Gwynoro (Carmarthen)
Probert, Arthur


Delargy, H. J.
Judd, Frank
Rhodes, Geoffrey


Dell, Rt. Hn. Edmund
Kaufman, Gerald
Richard, Ivor


Dempsey, James
Kelley, Richard
Roberts, Albert (Normanton)


Doig, Peter
Kinnock, Neil
Robertson, John (Paisley)


Dormand, J. D.
Lambie, David
Roderick, Caerwyn E.(Br'c'n&amp;R'dnor)


Douglas-Mann, Bruce
Lamond, James
Ross, Rt. Hn, William (Kilmarnock)


Edwards, Robert (Bilston)
Lawson, George
Sheldon, Robert (Ashton-under-Lyrre)


Edwards, William (Merioneth)
Leadbitter, Ted
Shore, Rt. Hn. Peter (Stepney)


Ellis, Tom
Lee, Rt. Hn. Frederick
Skinner, Dennis


English, Michael
Lever, Rt. Hn. Harold
Smith, John (Lanarkshire, N.)


Evans, Fred
Lewis, Arthur (W. Ham N.)
Spriggs, Leslie


Fletcher, Raymond (Ilkeston)
Lewis, Ron (Carlisle)
Stallard, A. W.


Fletcher, Ted (Darlington)
Loughtin, Charles
Strauss, Rt. Hn. G. R.


Foley, Maurice
Lyon, Alexander W. (York)
Summerskill, Hn. Dr. Shirley


Ford, Ben
Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson
Thomas,Rt.Hn.George (Cardiff,W.)


Freeson, Reginald
McElhone, Frank
Thomas, Jeffrey (Abertillery)


Golding, John
McGuire, Michael
Tomney, Frank


Gordon Walker, Rt. Hn. P. C.
Mackie, John
Urwin, T. W.


Gourlay, Harry
McMillan, Tom (Glasgow, C.)
Wainwright, Edwin


Grant, George (Morpeth)
McNamara, J. Kevin
Wallace, George


Griffiths, Eddie (Brightside)
MacPherson, Malcolm
Weitzman, David


Griffiths, Will (Exchange)
Marquand, David
White, James (Glasgow, Pollok)


Hamilton, William (Fife, W.)
Mason, Rt. Hn. Roy
Whitlock, William


Hamling, William
Mellish, Rt. Hn. Robert
Willey, Rt. Hn. Frederick


Hannan, William (G'gow, Maryhill)
Milne, Edward (Blyth)
Williams, Alan (Swansea, W.)


Harper, Joseph
Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe)
Williams, W. T. (Warrngton)


Harrison, Walter (Wakefield)
O'Halloran, Michael



Hattersley, Roy
O'Malley, Brian
TELLERS FOR THE NOES:


Healey, Rt. Hn. Denis
Oram, Bert
Mr. Ernest Armstrong and


Heffer, Eric S.
Orbach, Maurice
Mr. James Hamilton.


Horam, John
Orme, Stanley

Division No. 331.]
AYES
[10.59 a.m.


Adley, Robert
Chichester-Clark, R.
Gilmour, Sir John (Fife, E.)


Alison, Michael (Barkston Ash)
Churchill, W. S.
Glyn, Dr. Alan


Allason, James (Hemel Hempstead)
Clark, William (Surrey, E.)
Godber, Rt. Hn. J. B.


Archer, Jeffrey (Louth)
Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe)
Goodhew, Victor


Astor, John
Clegg, Walter
Gorst, John


Atkins, Humphrey
Cockeram, Eric
Gower, Raymond


Awdry, Daniel
Cooke, Robert
Grant, Anthony (Harrow, C.)


Baker, Kenneth (St. Marylebone)
Cooper, A. E.
Gray, Hamish


Baker, W. H. K. (Banff)
Cormack, Patrick
Green, Alan


Batsford, Brian
Costain, A. P.
Grieve, Percy


Beamish, Col. Sir Tufton
Critchley, Julian
Griffiths, Eldon (Bury St. Edmunds)


Bennett, Sir Frederic (Torquay)
Crouch, David
Cummer, Selwyn


Bennett, Dr. Reginald (Gosport)
d'Avigdor-Coldsmld, Sir Henry
Gurden, Harold


Berry, Hn. Anthony
d'Avigdor-Goldsmid,Maj.-Gen. James
Hall, Miss Joan (Keighley)


Biffen, John
Dodds-Parker, Douglas
Halt, John (Wycombe)


Biggs-Davison, John
Drayson, G. B.
Hall-Davis, A. G. F.


Blaker, Peter
du Cann, Rt Hn. Edward
Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury)


Body, Richard
Dykes, Hugh
Hannam, John (Exeter)


Boscawen, Robert
Eden, Sir John
Harrison, Col. Sir Harwood (Eye)


Bossom, Sir Clive
Edwards, Nicholas (Pembroke)
Harvey, Sir Arthur Vere


Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hn. John
Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carshalton)
Haselhurst, Alan


Braine, Bernard
Elliott, R. W. (N'c'tle-u-Tyne,N.)
Hastings, Stephen


Bray, Ronald
Emery, Peter
Hay, John


Brewis, John
Eyre, Reginald
Hayhoe, Barney


Brinton, Sir Tatton
Farr, John
Heseltine, Michael


Brocklebank-Fowler, Christopher
Fell, Anthony
Hicks, Robert


Brown, Sir Edward (Bath)
Fidler, Michael
Higgins, Terence L.


Bruce-Gardyne, J.
Finsberg, Geoffrey (Hampstead)
Hiley, Joseph


Buchanan-Smith, Alick (Angus, N &amp; M)
Fisher, Nigel (Surbiton)
Hill, John E. B. (Norfolk, S.)


Buck, Antony
Fletcher-Cooke, Charles
Hill, James (Southampton, Test)


Bullus, Sir Eric
Fortescue, Tim
Holland, Philip


Burden, F. A.
Foster, Sir John
Hordern, Peter


Butler, Adam (Bosworth)
Fowler, Norman
Hornby, Richard


Campbell, Rt.Hn.G.(Moray&amp;Nairn)
Fry, Peter
Hornsby-Smith,Rt.Hn.Dame Patricia


Carr, Rt. Hn. Robert
Galbraith, Hn. T. G.
Howell, David (Guildford)


Cary, Sir Robert
Gibson-Watt, David
Howell, Ralph (Norfolk, N.)


Chapman, Sydney
Gilmour, Ian (Norfolk, C.)
Hunt, John







Hutchison, Michael Clark
Monro, Hector
Sinclair, Sir George


Iremonger, T. L.
Montgomery, Fergus
Skeet, T. H. H.


James, David
More, Jasper
Soref, Harold


Jenkin, Patrick (Woodford)
Morgan, Geraint (Denbigh)
Sproat, Iain


Jessel, Toby
Morgan-Giles, Rear-Adm.
Stainton, Keith


Johnson Smith, C. (E. Grinstead)
Morrison, Charles (Devizes)
Stewart-Smith, D. G. (Belper)


Jones, Arthur (Northants, S.)
Mudd, David
Stodart, Anthony (Edinburgh, W.)


Jopling, Michael
Murton, Oscar
Stoddart-Scott, Col. Sir M.


Joseph, Rt. Hn. Sir Keith
Nabarro, Sir Gerald
Stokes, John


Kellett, Mrs. Elaine
Neave, Airey
Stuttaford, Dr. Tom


Kershaw, Anthony
Nicholls, Sir Harmar
Sutcliffe, John


Kimball, Marcus
Noble, Rt. Hn. Michael
Tapsell, Peter


King, Evelyn (Dorset, S.)
Normanton, Tom
Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne)


King, Tom (Bridgwater)
Nott, John
Taylor, Frank (Moss Side)


Kinsey, J. R.
Onslow, Cranley
Taylor, Robert (Croydon, N.W.)


Kirk, Peter
Oppenheim, Mrs. Sally
Tebbit, Norman


Kitson, Timothy
Orr, Capt. L. P. S.
Temple, John M.


Knight, Mrs. Jill
Osborn, John
Thatcher, Rt. Hn. Mrs. Margaret


Knox, David
Owen, Idris (Stockport, N.)
Thomas, John Stradling (Monmouth)


Lambton, Antony
Page, Graham (Crosby)
Thomas, Rt. Hn. Peter (Hendon, S.)


Lane, David
Page, John (Harrow, W.)
Thompson, Sir Richard (Croydon, S.)


Langford-Holt, Sir John
Percival, Ian
Tilney, John


Legge-Bourke, Sir Harry
Peyton, Rt. Hn. John
Trafford, Dr. Anthony


Le Marchant, Spencer
Pike, Miss Mervyn
Trew, Peter


Lloyd, Ian (P'tsm'th, Langstone)
Pink, R. Bonner
Tugendhat, Christopher


Longden, Gilbert
Pounder, Rafton
Turton, Rt. Hn. R. H.


Loveridge, John
Price, David (Eastleigh)
Vaughan, Dr. Gerard




Vickers, Dame Joan


McAdden, Sir stephen
Prior, Rt. Hn. J. M. L.
Waddington, David


McCrindle, R. A.
Proudfoot, Wilfred
Walder, David (Clitheroe)


McLaren, Martin
Pym, Rt. Hn. Francis
Walker, Rt. Hn. Peter (Worcester)


Maclean, Sir Fitzroy
Quennell, Miss J. M.
Wall, Patrick


McMaster, Stanley
Raison, Timothy
Walters, Dennis


McNair-Wilson, Michael
Reed, Laurence (Bolton, E.)
Ward, Dame Irene


McNair-Wilson, Patrick (NewForest)
Rees, Peter (Dover)
Warren, Kenneth


Maddan, Martin
Rees-Davies, W. R.
Weatherill, Bernard


Madel, David
Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon
Wells, John (Maidstone)


Maginnis, John E.
Ridley, Hn. Nicholas
White, Roger (Gravesend)


Marten, Neil
Ridsdale, Julian
Wiggin, Jerry


Mather, Carol
Roberts, Michael (Cardiff, N.)
Wilkinson, John


Maude, Angus
Roberts, Wyn (Conway)
Wolrige-Gordon, Patrick


Mawby, Ray
Rodgers, Sir John (Sevenoaks)
Wood, Rt. Hn. Richard


Meyer, Sir Anthony
Rossi, Hugh (Hornsey)
Woodhouse, Hn. Christopher


Mills, Peter (Torrington)
Rost, Peter
Woodnutt, Mark


Mills, Stratton (Belfast, N.)
Russell, Sir Ronald
Worsley, Marcus


Miscampbell, Norman
St. John-Stevas, Norman
Wylie, Rt. Hn. N. R.


Mitchell, Lt. -Col. C. (Aberdeenshire, W)
Scott, Nicholas
Younger, Hn. George


Mitchell, David (Basingstoke)
Scott-Hopkins, James



Moate, Roger
Sharpies, Richard
TELLERS FOR THE AYES:


Molyneaux, James
Shaw, Michael (Sc'b'gh &amp; Whitby)
Mr. Paul Hawkins and


Money, Ernie
Shelton, William (Clapham)
Mr. Keith Speed.


Monks, Mrs. Connie
Simeons, Charles





NOES


Abse, Leo
Davies, Ifor (Gower)
Hattersley, Roy


Ashley, Jack
Deakins, Eric
Healey, Rt. Hn, Denis


Bagier, Cordon A. T.
Delargy, H. J.
Heffer, Eric S.


Barnett, Joel
Dell, Rt. Hn. Edmund
Horam, John


Bennett, James (Glasgow, Bridgeton)
Dempsey, James
Houghton, Rt. Hn. Douglas


Ridwell, Sydney
Doig, Peter
Howell, Denis (Small Heath)


Bishop, E. S.
Dormand, J. D.
Hughes, Rt. Hn. Cledwyn (Anglesey)


Blenkinsop, Arthur
Douglas-Mann, Bruce
Hunter, Adam


Boardman, H. (Leigh)
Edwards, Robert (Bilston)
Jenkins, Hugh (Putney)


Booth, Albert
Edwards, William (Merioneth)
Jenkins, Rt. Hn. Roy (Stechford)


Boyden, James (Bishop Auckland)
Ellis, Tom
Johnson, Carol (Lewlsham, S.)


Brown, Hugh D. (G'gow, Provan)
English, Michael
Johnson, James (K'ston-on-Hull, W.)


Brown, Ronald (Shoreditch &amp; F'bury)
Evans, Fred
Johnson, Walter (Derby, S.)


Buchan, Norman
Fletcher, Raymond (Ilkeston)
Jones, Barry (Flint, E.)


Butler, Mrs. Joyce (Wood Green)
Fletcher, Ted (Darlington)
Jones, Dan (Burnley)


Campbell, I. (Dunbartonshire, W.)
Foley, Maurice
Jones,Rt.Hn.Sir Envyn(W.Ham,S.)


Carmichael, Neil
Ford, Ben
Jones, Gwynoro (Carmarthen)


Carter, Ray (Birmingh'm, Northfield)
Freeson, Reginald
Judd, Frank


Carter-Jones, Lewis (Eccles)
Golding, John
Kaufman, Gerald


Cocks, Michael (Bristol, S.)
Gordon Walker, Rt. Hn. P. C.
Kelley, Richard


Cohen, Stanley
Gourlay, Harry
Kinnock, Neil


Coleman, Donald
Grant, George (Morpeth)
Lambie, David


Concannon, J. D,
Griffiths, Eddie (Brightside)
Lamond, James


Conlan, Bernard
Griffiths, Will (Exchange)
Lawson, George


Corbet, Mrs. Freda
Hamilton, William (Fife, W.)
Leadbitter, Ted


Crosland, Rt. Hn. Anthony
Hamling, William
Lee, Rt. Hn. Frederick


Dalyell, Tam
Hannan, William (G'gow, Maryhill)
Lever, Rt. Hn. Harold


Davidson, Arthur
Harper, Joseph
Lewis, Arthur (W, Ham N.)


Davies, Denzil (Llanelly)
Harrison, Walter (Wakefield)
Lewis, Ron (Carlisle)







Loughlin, Charles
Owen, Dr. David (Plymouth, Sutton)
Smith, John (Lanarkshire, N.)


Lyon, Alexander W. (York)
Parker, John (Dagenham)
Spriggs, Leslie


Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson
Parry, Robert (Liverpool, Exchange)
Stallard, A. W.


McElhone, Frank
Pavitt, Laurie
Strauss, Rt. Hn. G. R.


McElhone, Frank
Peart, Rt. Hn. Fred
Summerskill, Hn. Dr. Shirley


McGuire, Michael Mackie, John
Pendry, Tom
Taverne, Dick


McMillan, Tom (Glasgow, C.)
Pentland, Norman
Thomas,Rt.Hn.Ceorge (Cardiff,W)



Perry, Ernest G.
Thomas, Jeffrey (Abertillery)


McNamara, J. Kevin
Prentice, Rt. Hn. Reg.
Tomney, Frank


MacPherson, Malcolm

Urwin, T. W.


Marquand, David
Prescott, John
Wainwright, Edwin


Mason, Rt. Hn. Roy
Price, J. T. (Westhoughton)
Wallace, George


Mellish, Rt. Hn. Robert
Probert, Arthur
Weitzman, David


Milne, Edward (Blyth)
Rhodes, Geoffrey
White, James (Glasgow, Pollok)


Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe)
Richard, Ivor
Whitlock, William


Moyle, Roland
Roberts, Albert (Normanton)
Willey, Rt. Hn. Frederick


O'Halloran, Michael
Robertson, John (Paisley)
Williams, Alan (Swansea, W.)


O'Malley, Brian
Roderick, Caerwyn E.(Br'c'n&amp;R'dnor)
Williams, W. T. (Warrington)


Oram, Bert
Ross, Rt. Hn. William (Kilmarnock)



Orbach, Maurice
Sheldon, Robert(Ashton-under-Lyne)
TELLERS FOR THE NOES:


Orme, Stanley
Shore, Rt. Hn. Peter (Stepney)
Mr. Ernest Armstrong and


Oswald, Thomas
Skinner, Dennis
Mr. James Hamilton.

Division No. 332.]
AYES
[11.9 a.m.


Adley, Robert
Elliott, R. W. (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne,N.)
Jopling, Michael


Alison, Michael (Barkston Ash)
Emery, Peter
Joseph, Rt. Hn, Sir Keith


Allason, James (Hemel Hempstead)
Eyre, Reginald
Kaberry, Sir Donald


Archer, Jeffrey (Louth)
Farr, John
Kellett, Mrs. Elaine



Fell, Anthony
Kershaw, Anthony


Astor, John
Fenner, Mrs. Peggy
Kimball, Marcus


Atkins, Humphrey
Fidler, Michael
King, Evelyn (Dorset, S.)


Awdry, Daniel
Finsberg, Geoffrey (Hampstead)
King, Tom (Bridgwater)


Baker, Kenneth (St. Marylebone)
Fisher, Nigel (Surbiton)
Kinsey, J. R.


Baker, W. H. K. (Banff)
Fletcher-Cooke, Charles
Kirk, Peter


Batsford, Brian
Fortescue, Tim
Kitson, Timothy


Beamish, Col. Sir Tufton
Foster, Sir John
Knight, Mrs. Jill


Bennett, Sir Frederic (Torquay)
Fowler, Norman
Knox, David


Bennett, Dr. Reginald (Gosport)
Fry, Peter
Lambton, Antony


Berry, Hn. Anthony
Galbraith, Hn. T. G.
Lane, David


Biffen, John
Gibson-Watt, David
Langford-Holt, Sir John


Biggs-Davison, John
Gilmour, Ian (Norfolk, C.)
Legge-Bourke, Sir Harry


Blaker, Peter
Gilmour, Sir John (Fife, E.)
Le Marchant, Spencer


Body, Richard
Glyn, Dr. Alan
Lloyd, Ian (P'tsm'th, Langstone)


Boscawen, Robert
Godber, Rt. Hn. J. B.
Longden, Gilbert


Bossom, Sir Clive
Goodhew, Victor
Loveridge, John


Bowden, Andrew
Gorst, John
McAdden, Sir Stephen


Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hn. John
Cower, Raymond
McCrindle, R. A.


Braine, Bernard
Grant, Anthony (Harrow, C.)
McLaren, Martin


Bray, Ronald
Gray, Hamish
Maclean, Sir Fitzroy


Brewis, John
Green, Alan
McMaster, Stanley


Brinton, Sir Tatton
Grieve, Percy
McNair-Wilson, Michael


Brocklebank-Fowler, Christopher
Gummer, Selwyn
McNair-Wilson, Patrick (NewForest)


Brown, Sir Edward (Bath)
Gurden, Harold
Maddan, Martin


Bruce-Gardyne, J.
Hall, Miss Joan (Keighley)
Madel, David


Buchanan-Smith, Alick(Angus,N&amp;M)
Halt, John (Wycombe)
Maginnis, John E.


Buck, Antony
Hall-Davis, A.G.F.
Marten, Neil


Bullus, Sir Eric
Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury)
Mather, Carol


Burden, F. A.
Hannam, John (Exeter)
Maude, Angus


Butler, Adam (Bosworth)
Harrison, Col. Sir Harwood (Eye)
Mawby, Ray


Campbell, Rt.Hn.G.(Moray&amp;Nairn)
Harvey, Sir Arthur Vere
Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J.


Carr, Rt. Hn. Robert
Haselhurst, Alan
Meyer, Sir Anthony


Cary, Sir Robert
Hastings, Stephen
Mills, Peter (Torrington)


Chapman, Sydney
Hawkins, Paul
Mills, Stratton (Belfast, N.)


Chichester-Clark, R.
Hay, John
Miscampbell, Norman


Churchill, W. S.
Hayhoe, Barney
Mitchell,Lt.-col.C.(Aberdeenshire, W)


Clark, William (Surrey, E.)
Heseltine, Michael
Mitchell, David (Basingstoke)


Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe)
Hicks, Robert
Moate, Roger


Cockeram, Eric
Higgins, Terence L.
Molyneaux, James


Cooke, Robert
Hiley, Joseph



Cooper, A. E.
Hill, James (Southampton, Test)
Money, Ernie


Cordle, John
Hill, John E. B. (Norfolk, S.)
Monks, Mrs. Connie


Cormack, Patrick
Holland, Philip
Monro, Hector


Costain, A. P.
Hordern, Peter
Montgomery, Fergus


Critchley, Julian
Hornby, Richard
More, Jasper


Crouch, David
Hornsby-Smith,Rt.Hn.Dame Patricia
Morgan, Geraint (Denbigh)


d'Avigdor-Coldsmid, Sir Henry
Howell, David (Guildford)
Morgan-Giles, Rear-Adm.


d'Avigdor-Coldsmid.MaJ.-Gen.James
Howell, Ralph (Norfolk, N.)
Morrison, Charles (Devizes)


Dodds-Parker, Douglas
Hunt, John
Mudd, David


Drayson, G. B.
Hutchison, Michael Clark
Murton, Oscar


du Cann, Rt. Hn. Edward
Iremonger, T. L.
Nabarro, Sir Gerald


Dykes, Hugh
dames, David
Neave, Airey


Eden, Sir John
Jenkin, Patrick (Woodford)
Nicholls, Sir Harmar


Edwards, Nicholas (Pembroke)
Johnson Smith, C. (E. Grinstead)
Noble, Rt. Hn. Michael


Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carshalton)
Jones, Arthur (Northants, S.)
Normanton, Tom







Nott, John
Russell, Sir Ronald
Tilney, John


Onslow, Cranley
St. John-Stevas, Norman
Trafford, Dr. Anthony


Oppenheim, Mrs. Sally
Scott, Nicholas
Trew, Peter


Orr, Capt. L. P. S.
Scott-Hopkins, James
Tugendhat, Christopher


Osborn, John
Sharpies, Richard
Turton, Rt. Hn. R. H.


Owen, Idris (Stockport, N.)
Shaw, Michael (Se'b'gh &amp; Whitby)
Vaughan, Dr. Gerard


Page, Graham (Crosby)
Shelton, William (Clapham)
Vickers, Dame Joan


Page, John (Harrow, W.)
Simeons, Charles
Waddington, David


Parkinson, Cecil' (Enfield, w.)
Sinclair, Sir George
Walder, David (Clitheroe)


Percival, Ian
Soref, Harold
Walker, Rt. Hn. Peter (Worcester)


Peyton, Rt. Hn. John
Speed, Keith
Wall, Patrick


Pike, Miss Mervyn
Spence, John
Walters, Dennis


Pink, R. Bonner
Sproat, Iain
Ward, Dame Irene


Pounder, Rafton
Stainton, Keith
Warren, Kenneth


Price, David (Eastleigh)
Stewart-Smith, D. G. (Belper)
Weatherill, Bernard


Prior, Rt. Hn. J. M. L.
Stodart, Anthony (Edinburgh, W.)
Wells, John (Maidstone)


Proudfoot, Wilfred
Stoddart-Scott, Col. Sir M.
White, Roger (Gravesend)


Pym, Rt. Hn. Francis
Stokes-, John
Wiggin, Jerry


Quennell, Miss J. M.
Stuttaford, Dr. Tom
Wilkinson, John


Raison, Timothy
Sutcliffe, John
Wolrige-Gordon, Patrick


Reed, Laurance (Bolton, E.)
Tapsell, Peter
Wood, Rt. Hn. Richard


Rees, Peter (Dover)
Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne)
Woodhouse, Hn. Christopher


Rees-Davies, W. R.
Taylor, Frank (Moss Side)
Woodnutt, Mark


Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon
Taylor, Robert (Croydon, N.W.)
Worsley, Marcus


Ridley, Hn. Nicholas
Tebbit, Norman
Wylie, Rt. Hn. N. R.


Ridsdale, Julian
Temple, John M.
Younger, Hn. George


Roberts, Michael (Cardiff, N.)
Thatcher, Rt. Hn. Mrs. Margaret



Roberts, Wyn (Conway)
Thomas, John Stradling (Monmouth)
TELLERS FOR THE AYES:


Rodgers, Sir John (Sevenoaks)
Thomas, Rt. Hn. Peter (Hendon, S.)
Mr. Walter Clegg and


Rost, Peter
Thompson, Sir Richard(Croydon, S.)
Mr. Hugh Rossi.




NOES


Abse, Leo
Ford, Ben
McNamara, J. Kevin


Armstrong, Ernest
Freeson, Reginald
MacPherson, Malcolm


Ashley, Jack
Gordon Walker, Rt. Hn. P. C.
Marquand, David


Bagier, Gordon A. T.
Gourlay, Harry
Mason, Rt. Hn. Roy


Barnett, Joel
Grant, George (Morpeth)
Mellish, Rt. Hn. Robert


Bennett, James(Clasgow, Bridgeton)
Griffiths, Eddie (Brightside)
Milne, Edward (Blyth)


Bidwell, Sydney
Griffiths, Will (Exchange)
Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe)


Bishop, E. S.
Hamilton, James (Bothwell)
Moyle, Roland


Blenkinsop, Arthur
Hamilton, William (Fife. W.)
Mulley, Rt. Hn. Frederick


Boardman, H. (Leigh)
Hamling, William
O'Halloran, Micheal


Booth, Albert
Harman, William (G'gow, Maryhill)
O'Malley, Brian


Boyden, James (Bishop Auckland)
Harrison, Walter (Wakefield)
Oram, Bert


Bradley, Tom
Hattersley, Roy
Orbach, Maurice


Brown, Hugh D. (G'gow, Provan)
Healey, Rt. Hn. Denis
Orme, Stanley


Brown, Ronald(Shoreditch &amp; F'bury)
Heifer, Eric S.
Oswald, Thomas


Buchan, Norman
Horam, John
Owen, Dr. David (Plymouth, Sutton)


Butler, Mrs. Joyce (Wood Green)
Houghton, Rt. Hn. Douglas
Parker, John (Dagenham)


Campbell, I. (Dumbartonshire, W.)
Howell, Denis (Small Heath)
Parry, Robert (Liverpool, Exchange)


Carmichael, Neil
Hughes, Rt. Hn. Cledwyn (Anglesey)
Pavitt, Laurie


Carter, Ray(Birmingh'm, Northfield)
Hunter, Adam
Peart, Rt. Hn. Fred


Carter-Jones, Lewis (Eccles)
Jenkins, Hugh (Putney)
Pendry, Tom


Cocks, Michael (Bristol, S.)
Jenkins, Rt. Hn. Roy (Stechford)
Pentland, Norman


Cohen, Stanley
Johnson, Carol (Lewisham, S.)
Perry, Ernest G.


Coleman, Donald
Johnson, James (K'ston-on-Hull, W.)
Prentice, Rt. Hn. Reg.


Concannon, J. D.
Johnson, Walter (Derby, S.)
Prescott, John


Conlan, Bernard
Jones, Barry (Flint, E.)
Price, J. T. (Westhoughton)


Corbet, Mrs. Freda
Jones, Dan (Burnley)
Probert, Arthur


Crosland, Rt. Hn. Anthony
Jones,Rt.Hn.Sir Elwyn(W.Ham.S.)
Rankin, John


Dalyell, Tam
Jones, Gwynoro (Carmarthen)
Rhodes, Geoffrey


Davidson, Arthur
Judd, Frank
Richard, Ivor


Davies, Denzil (Llanelly)
Kaufman, Gerald
Roberts, Albert (Normanton)


Davies, Ifor (Gower)
Kelley, Richard
Robertson, John (paisley)


Deakins, Eric
Kinnock, Neil
Roderick, Caerwyn E.(Br'c'n&amp;R'dnor)


Delargy, H. J.
Lambie, David
Ross, Rt. Hn. William (Kilmarnock)


Dell, Rt. Hn. Edmund
Lamond, James
Sheldon,Robert(Ashton-under-Lyne)


Dempsey, James
Lawson, George
Shore, Rt. Hn. Peter (Stepney)


Doig, Peter
Leadbitter, Ted
Skinner, Dennis


Dormand, J. D.
Lee, Rt. Hn. Frederick
Smith, John (Lanarkshire, N.)


Douglas-Mann, Bruce
Lever, Rt. Hn. Harold
Spriggs, Leslie


Eadie, Alex
Lewis, Arthur (W. Ham N.)
Stallard, A. W.


Edwards, Robert (Bilston)
Lewis, Ron (Carlisle)
Strauss, Rt. Hn. G. R.


Edwards, William (Merioneth)
Loughlin, Charles



Ellis, Tom
Lyon, Alexander W. (York)
Summerskill, Hn. Dr. Shirley


English, Michael
Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson
Taverne, Dick


Evans, Fred
McElhone, Frank
Thomas,Rt.Hn.George(Cardiff,W.)


Fletcher, Raymond (Ilkeston)
McGuire, Michael
Thomas, Jeffrey (Abertillery)


Fletcher, Ted (Darlington)
Mackie, John
Tomney, Frank


Foley, Maurice
McMillan, Tom (Glasgow, C.)
Urwin, T. W.







Wainwright, Edwin
Whitlock, William
TELLERS FOR THE NOES:


Wallace, George
Willey, Rt. Hn. Frederick
Mr, Joseph Harper and


Weitzman, David
Williams, Alan (Swansea, W.)
Mr. John Golding.


White, James (Glasgow, Pollok)
Williams, W. T. (Warrington)

Division No. 333.]
AYES
[11.19 a.m.


Adley, Robert
Gilmour, Sir John (Fife, E.)
Maude, Angus


Alison, Michael (Barkston Ash)
Glyn, Dr. Alan
Mawby, Ray


Allason, James (Hemel Hempstead)
Godber, Rt. Hn. J. B.
Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J.


Archer, Jeffrey (Louth)
Goodhew, victor
Meyer, Sir Anthony


Astor, John
Gorst, John
Mills, Peter (Torrington)


Atkins, Humphrey
Cower, Raymond
Mills, Stratton (Belfast, N.)


Awdry, Daniel
Grant, Anthony (Harrow, C.)
Miscampbell, Norman


Baker, Kenneth (St. Marylebone)
Gray, Hamish
Mitchell, Lt. -Col. C.(Aberdeenshire, W)


Baker, W. H. K. (Banff)
Green, Alan
Mitchell, David (Basingstoke)


Batsford, Brian
Grieve, Percy
Moate, Roger


Beamish, Col. Sir Tufton
Griffiths, Eldon (Bury St. Edmunds)
Molyneaux, James


Bennett, Sir Frederic (Torquay)
Gummer, Selwyn
Money, Ernie


Bennett, Dr. Reginald (Gosport)
Gurden, Harold
Monks Mrs, Connie


Berry, Hn. Anthony
Hall, Miss Joan (Keighley)



Biffen, John
Hall, John (Wycombe)
Montgomery, Fergus


Biggs-Davison, John
Hall-Davis, A. G. F.
More, Jasper


Blaker, Peter
Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury)
Morgan, Geraint (Denbigh)


Body, Richard
Hannam, John (Exeter)
Morgan-Giles, Rear-Adm.


Boscawen, Robert
Harrison, Col. Sir Harwood (Eye)
Morris, Charles (Devizes)


Bossom, Sir Clive
Harvey, Sir Arthur Vera
Mudd, David


Bowden, Andrew
Haselhurst, Alan
Murton, Oscar


Boyd-Carpenter, Rt, Hn. John
Hastings, Stephen
Nabarro, Sir Gerald


Braine, Bernard
Hawkins, Paul
Neave, Airey


Bray, Ronald
Hay, John
Nicholle, Sir Harmar


Brewis, John
Hayhoe, Barney
Noble, Rt. Hn. Michael


Brinton, Sir Tatton
Heseltine, Michael
Normanton, Tom


Brocklebank-Fowler, Christopher
Hicks, Robert
Nott, John


Brown, Sir Edward (Bath)
Higgins, Terence L.
Onslow, Cranley


Bruce-Gardyne, J.
Hiley, Joseph
Oppenheim, Mrs. Sally


Buchanan-Smith, Atick(Angus,N&amp;M)
Hill, John E. B. (Norfolk, S.)
Orr, Capt. L. P. S.


Buck, Antony
Hill, James (Southampton, Test)
Osborn, John


Bullus, Sir Eric
Holland, Phillip
Owen, Idris (Stockport, N.)


Burden, F. A.
Hornby, Richard
Page, Graham (Crosby)


Butler, Adam (Bosworth)
Hornsby-Smith,Rt.Hn.Dame Patricia
Page, John (Harrow, W.)


Campbell, Rt.Hn.G.(Moray&amp;Naim)
Howell, David (Guildford)
Parkinson, Cecil (Enfield, W.)


Carr, Rt. Hn. Robert
Howell, Ralph (Norfolk, N.)
Percival, Ian


Cary, Sir Robert
Hunt, John
Peyton, Rt. Hn. John


Chapman, Sydney
Hutchison, Michael Clark
Pike, Miss Mervyn


Chataway, Rt. Hn. Christopher
Iremonger, T. L.
Pink, R. Bonner


Chichester-Clark, R.
James, David
Pounder, Rafton


Churchill, W. S.
Jenkin, Patrick (Woodford)
Powell, Rt. Hn. J. Enoch


Clark, William (Surrey, E.)
Johnson Smith, G. (E. Grinstead)
Price, David (Eastleigh)


Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe)
Jones, Arthur (Northants, S.)



Clegg, Walter

Prior, Rt. Hn. J. M. L.


Cockeram, Eric
Jopling, Michael
Proudfoot, Wilfred


Cooke, Robert
Joseph, Rt. Hn. Sir Keith
Pym, Rt. Hn. Francis


Cooper, A. E.
Kaberry, Sir Donald
Quennell, Miss J. M.


Cordle, John
Kellett, Mrs. Elaine
Raison, Timothy


Cormack, Patrick
Kershaw, Anthony
Reed, Laurance (Bolton, E.)


Costain, A. P.
Kimball, Marcus
Rees, Peter (Dover)


Critchley, Julian
King, Evelyn (Dorset, S.)
Rees-Davies, W. R.


Crouch, David
King, Tom (Bridgwater)
Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon


d'Avigdor-Goldtmld, Sir Henry
Kinsey, J. R.
Ridley, Hn. Nicholas


d'Avigdor-Goldsmid,Maj. -Gen. James
Kirk, Peter
Ridsdale, Julian


Dodds-Parker, Douglas
Kitson, Timothy
Roberts, Michael (Cardiff, N.)


Drayson, G. B.
Knight, Mrs. Jill
Roberts, Wyn (Conway)


du Cann, Rt. Hn. Edward
Knox, David
Rodgers, sir John (Sevenoaks)


Dykes, Hugh
Lambton, Antony
Rossi, Hugh (Hornsey)


Eden, Sir John
Lane, David
Rost, Peter


Edwards, Nicholas (Pembroke)
Langford-Holt, Sir John
Russell, Sir Ronald


Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carshalton)
Legge-Bourke, Sir Harry
St. John-Stevas, Norman


Elliott, R. W. (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne,N.)
Le Marchant, Spencer
Scott, Nicholas


Emery, Peter
Lloyd, Ian (P'tsm'th, Langstone)
Scott-Hopkins, James


Eyre, Reginald
Longden, Gilbert
Sharpies, Richard


Farr, John
Loveridge, John
Shaw, Michael (Sc'b'gh &amp; Whitby)


Fell, Anthony

Shelton, William (Clapham)


Fenner, Mrs. Peggy
McAdden, Sir Stephen





Simeons, Charles


Fidler, Michael
McCrindle, R. A.



Finsberg, Geoffrey (Hampstead)
McLaren, Martin
Sinclair, Sir George


Fisher, Nigel (Surbiton)
Maclean, Sir Fitzroy
Skeet, T. H. H.


Fletcher-Cooke, Charles
McMaster, Stanley
Soref, Harold


Forteseue, Tim
McNair-Wilson, Michael
Sproat, Iain


Foster, Sir John
McNair-Wilson, Patrick (New Forest)
Sainton, Keith


Fowler, Norman
Maddan, Martin
Stewart-Smith, D. G. (Belper)


Fry, Peter
Madel, David
Stodart, Anthony (Edinburgh, W.)


Galbraith, Hn. T. G.
Maginnis, John E.
Stoddart-Scott, Col. Sir M.


Gibson-Watt, David
Marten, Neil
Stokes, John


Gilmour, Ian (Norfolk, C.)
Mather, Carol
Stuttaford, Dr. Tom







Sutcliffe, John
Tungendhat, Christopher
Wiggin, Jerry


Tapsell, Peter
Turton, Rt. Hn. R. H.
Wilkinson, John


Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne)
Vaughan, Dr. Gerard
Wolrige-Gordon, Patrick


Taylor, Frank (Moss Side)
Vickers, Dame Joan
Wood, Rt. Hn. Richard


Taylor, Robert (Croydon, N.W.)
Waddington, David
Woodhouse, Hn. Christopher


Tebbit, Norman
Walder, David (Clitheroe)
Woodnutt, Mark


Temple, John M.
Walker, Rt. Hn. Peter (Worcester)
Worsley, Marcus


Thatcher, Rt. Hn. Mrs. Margaret
Wall, Patrick
Wylie, Rt. Hn. N. R.


Thomas, John Stradling (Monmouth)
Walters, Dennis
Younger, Hn. George


Thomas, Rt. Hn. Peter (Hendon, S.)
Ward, Dame Irene



Thompson, Sir Richard (Croydon, S.)
Warren, Kenneth
TELLERS FOR THE AYES:


Tilney, John
Weatherill, Bernard
Mr. Hector Monro and


Trafford, Dr. Anthony
Wells, John (Maidstone)
Mr. Keith Speed.


Trew, Peter
White, Roger (Gravesend)





NOES


Abse, Leo
Griffiths, Eddie (Brightside)
Mulley, Rt. Hn. Frederick


Armstrong, Ernest
Griffiths, Will (Exchange)
O'Halloran, Michael


Ashley, Jack
Hamilton, James (Bothwell)
O'Malley, Brian


Bagier, Gordon A, T.
Hamilton, William (Fife, W.)
Oram, Bert


Barnett, Joel
Hamling, William
Orbach, Maurice


Bennett, James (Glasgow, Bridgeton)
Hannan, William (G'gow, Maryhill)
Orme, Stanley


Bidwell, Sydney
Harrison, Walter (Wakefield)
Oswald, Thomas


Bishop, E. S.
Hattersley, Roy
Owen, Dr. David (Plymouth, Sutton)


Btenkinsop, Arthur
Healey, Rt. Hn. Denis
Pannell, Rt. Hn. Charles


Boardman, H. (Leigh)
Heffer, Eric S.
Parker, John (Dagenham)


Booth, Albert
Horam, John
Parry, Robert (Liverpool, Exchange)


Boyden, James (Bishop Auckland)
Houghton, Rt. Hn. Douglas
Pavitt, Laurie


Bradley, Tom
Howell, Denis (Small Heath)
Peart, Rt. Hn. Fred


Brown, Hugh D. (G'gow, Provan)
Hughes, Rt. Hn. Cledwyn (Anglesey)
Pendry, Tom


Brown, Ronald (Shoreditch &amp; F'bury)
Hunter, Adam
Pentland, Norman


Buchan, Norman
Jenkins, Hugh (Putney)
Perry, Ernest G.


Butler, Mrs. Joyce (Wood Green)
Jenkins, Rt. Hn. Roy (Stechford)
Prentice, Rt. Hn. Reg.


Campbell, I. (Dunbartonshire, W.)
Johnson, Carol (Lewisham, S.)
Prescott, John


Carmichael, Neil
Johnson, James (K'ston-on-Hull, W.)
Price, J. T. (Westhoughton)


Carter, Ray (Birmingh'm, Northfield
Johnson, Walter (Derby, S.)
Probert, Arthur


Carter-Jones, Lewis (Eccles)
Jones, Barry (Flint, E.)
Rankin, John


Castle, Rt. Hn. Barbara
Jones, Dan (Burnley)
Rhodes, Geoffrey


Cocks, Michael (Bristol, S.)
Jones, Rt.Hn.SirElwyn(W. Ham, S.)
Richard, Ivor


Cohen, Stanley
Jones, Gwynoro (Carmarthen)
Roberts, Albert (Normanton)


Coleman, Donald
Judd, Frank
Robertson, John (Paisley)


Concannon, J. D.
Kaufman, Gerald
Roderick, Caerwyn E.(Br'c'n&amp;R'dnor)


Conlan, Bernard
Kelley, Richard
Ross, Rt. Hn. William (Kilmarnock)


Corbet, Mrs. Freda
Kinnock, Neil
Sheldon, Robert (Ashton-under-Lyne)


Crosland, Rt. Hn. Anthony
Lambie, David
Shore, Rt. Hn. Peter (Stepney)


Dalyell, Tam
Lamond, James
Skinner, Dennis


Davidson, Arthur
Lawson, George
Smith, John (Lanarkshire, N.)


Davies, Denzil (Llanelly)
Leadbitter, Ted
Spriggs, Leslie


Davies, Ifor (Cower)
Lee, Rt. Hn. Frederick
Stallard, A. W.


Deakins, Eric
Lever, Rt. Hn. Harold
Strauss, Rt. Hn. G. R.


Delargy, H. J
Lewis, Arthur (W. Ham, N.)
Summerskill, Hn. Dr. Shirley


Dell, Rt. Hn. Edmund
Lewis, Ron (Carlisle)
Taverne, Dick


Dempsey, James
Loughlin, Charles
Thomas,Rt.Hn.George(Cardift,W.)


Doig, Peter
Lyon, Alexander W. (York)
Thomas, Jeffrey (Abertillery)


Dormand, J. D.
Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson
Tomney, Frank


Douglas-Mann, Bruce
McElhone, Frank
Urwin, J. W.


Eadie, Alex
McGuire, Michael
Wainwright, Edwin


Edwards, Robert (Bilston)
Mackie, John
Wallace, George


Edwards, William (Merioneth)
Maclennan, Robert
Weitzman, David


Ellis, Tom
McMillan, Tom (Glasgow, C.)
White, James (Glasgow, Pollok)


English, Michael
McNamara, J. Kevin
Whitlock, William


Evans, Fred
MacPherson, Malcolm
Willey, Rt. Hn. Frederick


Fletcher, Raymond (Ilkeston)
Marquand, David
Williams, Alan (Swansea, W.)


Fletcher, Ted (Darlington)

Williams, W. T. (Warrington)


Foley, Maurice
Mason, Rt. Hn. Roy



Ford, Ben
Mellish, Rt. Hn. Robert
TELLERS FOR THE NOES:


Freeson, Reginald
Milne, Edward (Blyth)
Mr. Joseph Harper and


Gordon Walker, Rt. Hn. P. G.
Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe)
Mr. John Golding.


Gourlay, Harry
Moyle, Roland



Grant, George (Morpeth)

Division No. 334.]
AYES
[11.29 a.m.


Adley, Robert
Barber, Rt. Hn. Anthony
Boscawen, Robert


Alison, Michael (Barkston Ash)
Batsford, Brian
Bossom, Sir Clive


Allason, James (Hemel Hempstead)
Beamish, Col. Sir Tufton
Bowden, Andrew


Amery, Rt. Hn. Julian
Bennett, Sir Frederic (Torquay)
Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hn. John


Archer, Jeffrey (Louth)
Bennett, Dr. Reginald (Gosport)
Brains, Bernard


Astor, John
Berry, Hn. Anthony
Bray, Ronald


Atkins, Humphrey
Bitten, John
Brewis, John


Awdry, Daniel
Biggs-Davison, John
Brinton, Sir Tatton


Baker, Kenneth (St. Marylebone)
Blaker, Peter
Broklebank-Fowler, Christopher


Baker, W. H. K. (Banff)
Body, Richard
Brown, Sir Edward (Bath)







Bruce-Gardyne, J.
Hayhoe, Barney
Nott, John


Bryan, Paul
Heath, Rt. Hn. Edward
Onslow, Cranley


Buchanan-Smith, Alick(Arigus,N&amp;M)
Heseltine, Michael
Oppenheim, Mrs. Sally


Buck Antony
Hicks, Robert
Orr, Capt. L. P. S.


Bullus, Sir Erie
Higgins, Terence L.
Osborn, John


Burden, F. A.
Hiley, Joseph
Owen, Idris (Stockport, N.)


Butler, Adam (Bosworth)
Hill, John E. B. (Norfolk, S.)
Page, Graham (Crosby)


Campbell, Rt.Hn.G.(Moray&amp;Nairn)
Hill, James (Southampton, Test)
Page, John (Harrow, W.)


Carr, Rt. Hn. Robert
Holland, Philip
Parkinson, Cecil (Enfield, W.)


Cary, Sir Robert
Hornby, Richard
Percival, Ian


Channon, Paul
Hornsby-Smith,Rt.Hn.Dame Patricia
Peyton, Rt. Hn. John


Chapman, Sydney
Howell, David (Guildford)
Pike, Miss Mervyn


Chataway, Rt. Hn. Christopher
Howell, Ralph (Norfolk, N.)
Pink, R. Bonner


Chichester-Clark, R.
Hunt, John
Pounder, Rafton


Churchill, W. S.
Hutchison, Michael Clark
Powell, Rt. Hn. J. Enoch


Clark, William (Surrey, E.)
Iremonger, T. L.
Price, David (Eastleigh)


Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe)
James, David
Prior, Rt. Hn. J. M. L.


Clegg, Walter
Jenkin, Patrick (Woodford)
Proudfoot, Wilfred


Cockeram, Eric
Johnson Smith, G. (E. Grinstead)
Pym, Rt. Hn. Francis


Cooke, Robert
Jones, Arthur (Northants, S.)
Quennell, Miss J. M.


Cooper, A. E.
Jopling, Michael
Raison, Timothy




Rawlinson, Rt. Hn. Sir Peter


Cordle, John
Joseph, Rt. Hn. Sir Keith
Reed, Laurence (Bolton, E.)


Corfield, Rt. Hn. Frederick
Kaberry, Sir Donald
Rees, Peter (Dover)


Cormack, Patrick
Kellett, Mrs. Elaine
Rees-Davies, W. R.


Cos tain, A. P.
Kershaw, Anthony
Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon


Critchley, Julian
Kimball, Marcus
Ridley, Hn. Nicholas


Crouch, David
King, Evelyn (Dorset, S.)
Ridsdale, Julian


Davies, Rt. Hn. John (Knutsford)
King, Tom (Bridgwater)
Roberts, Michael (Cardiff, N.)


d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Sir Henry
Kinsey, J. R.
Roberts, Wyn (Conway)


d'Avigdor-Goldsmid,Maj.-Gen.James
Kirk, Peter
Rodgers, Sir John (Sevenoaks)


Dodds-Parker, Douglas
Kitson, Timothy
Rossi, Hugh (Hornsey)


Douglas-Home, Rt. Hn. Sir Alec
Knight, Mrs. Jill
Rost, Peter


Drayson, G. B.
Knox, David
Russell, Sir Ronald


du Cann, Rt. Hn. Edward
Lambton, Antony
St. John-Stevas, Norman


Dykes, Hugh
Lane, David
Scott, Nicholas


Eden, Sir John
Langford-Holt, Sir John
Scott-Hopkins, James


Edwards, Nicholas (Pembroke)
Legge-Bourke, Sir Harry
Sharpies, Richard


Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carshalton)
Le Marchant, Spencer
Shaw, Michael (Sc'b'gh &amp; Whitby)


Elliott, R. W. (N'c' tle-upon-Tyne,N.) Emery, Peter
Lloyd, Ian (P'tsm'th, Langstone)
Shelton, William (Clapham)


Eyre Reginald
Longden, Gilbert
Simeons, Charles


Farr, John
Loveridge, John
Sinclair, Sir George


Fell, Anthony
McAdden, Sir Stephen
Skeet, T. H. H.


Fenner, Mrs. Peggy
McCrindle, R. A.
Soref, Harold


Fidler, Michael
McLaren, Martin
Speed, Keith


Finsberg, Geoffrey (Hampstead)
Maclean, Sir Fitzroy
Sproat, Iain


Fisher, Nigel (Surbiton)
McMaster, Stanley
Stainton, Keith


Fletcher-Cooke, Charles
Macmillan, Maurice (Farnham)
Stewart-Smith, D. G. (Belper)


Fookes, Miss Janet
McNair-Wilson, Michael
Stodart, Anthony (Edinburgh, W.)


Fortescue, Tim
McNair-wilson, Patrick (NewForest)
Stoddart-Scott, Col. Sir M.


Foster, Sir John
Maddan, Martin
Stokes, John


Fowler, Norman
Madel, David
stuttaford, Dr. Tom


Fry, Peter
Maginnis, John E.
Sutcliffe, John


Calbraith, Hn. T. G.
Marten, Neil
Tapsell, Peter


Gibson-Watt, David
Mather, Carol
Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne)


Gilmour, Ian (Norfolk, C.)
Maude, Angus
Taylor, Frank (Moss Side)


Gilmour, Sir John (Fife, E.)
Maudling, Rt. Hn. Reginald
Taylor, Robert (Croydon, N.W.)


Glyn, Dr. Alan
Mawby, Ray
Tebbit, Norman


Godber, Rt. Hn. J. B.
Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J.
Temple, John M.


Goodhart, Philip
Meyer, Sir Anthony
Thatcher, Rt. Hn. Mrs. Margaret


Goodhew, Victor
Mills, Peter (Torrington)
Thomas, John Stradling (Monmouth)


Gorst, John
Mills, Stratton (Belfast, N.)
Thomas, Rt. Hn. Peter (Hendon, S.)


Cower, Raymond
Miscampbell, Norman
Thompson, Sir Richard (Croydon, S.)


Grant, Anthony (Harrow, C.)
Mitchell, Lt. -Col. C.(Aberdeenshire,W)
Tilney, John


Gray, Hamish
Mitchell, David (Basingstoke)
Trafford, Dr. Anthony


Green, Alan
Moate, Roger
Trew, Peter


Grieve, Percy
Molyneaux, James
Tugendhat, Christopher


Griffiths, Eldon (Bury St. Edmunds)
Money, Ernie
Turton, Rt. Hn. R. H.


Grylls, Michael
Monks, Mrs. Connie
Vaughan, Dr. Gerard


Gummer, Selwyn
Monro, Hector
Vickers, Dame Joan


Gurden, Harold
Montgomery, Fergus
Waddington, David


Hall, Miss Joan (Keightey)
More, Jasper
Walder, David (Clitheroe)


Hall, John (Wycombe)
Morgan, Geraint (Denbigh)
Walker, Rt. Hn. Peter (Worcester)


Hall-Davis, A. G. F.
Morgan-Giles, Rear-Adm.
Wall, Patrick


Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury)
Morrison, Charles (Devizes)
Walters, Dennis


Hannam, John (Exeter)
Mudd, David
Ward, Dame Irene


Harrison, Col. Sir Harwood (Eye)
Murton, Oscar
Warren, Kenneth


Harvey, Sir Arthur Vera
Neave, Airey
Wells, John (Maidstone)


Haselhurst, Alan
Nicholls, Sir Harmar
White, Roger (Gravesend)


Hastings, Stephen
Noble, Rt. Hn. Michael
Whitelaw, Rt. Hn. William


Hay, John
Normanton, Tom
Wiggin, Jerry







Wilkinson, John
Woodnutt, Mark
TELLERS FOR THE AYES:


Wolrige-Gordon, Patrick
Worsley, Marcus
Mr. Bernard Weatherill and


Wood, Rt. Hn. Richard
Wylie, Rt. Hn. N. R.
Mr. Paul Hawkins.


Woodhouse, Hn. Christopher
Younger, Hn. George





NOES


Abse, Leo
Grant, George (Morpeth)
Mulley, Rt. Hn. Frederick


Armstrong, Ernest
Griffiths, Eddie (Brightside)
O'Halloran, Michael


Ashley, Jack
Griffiths, Will (Exchange)
O'Malley, Brian


Bagier, Gordon A. T.
Hamilton, James (Bothwell)
Oram, Bert


Barnett, Joel
Hamilton, William (Fife, W.)
Orbach, Maurice


Benn, Rt. Hn. Anthony Wedgwood
Hamling, William
Orme, Stanley


Bennett, James (Glasgow, Bridgeton)
Hannan, William (G'gow, Maryhill)
Oswald, Thomas


Bidwell, Sydney
Harrison, Walter (Wakefield)
Owen, Dr. David (Plymouth, Sutton)


Bishop, E. S.
Hattersley, Roy
Pannell, Rt. Hn. Charles


Blenkinsop, Arthur
Heeley, Rt. Hn. Denis
Parker, John (Dagenham)


Boardman, H. (Leigh)
Heffer, Eric S.
Parry, Robert (Liverpool, Exchange)


Booth, Albert
Horam, John
Pavitt, Laurie


Boyden, James (Bishop Auckland)
Houghton, Rt. Hn. Douglas
Peart, Rt. Hn. Fred


Bradley, Tom
Howell, Danis (Small Heath)
Pendry, Tom


Brown, Hugh D. (G'gow, Provan)
Hughes, Rt. Hn. Cledwyn (Anglesey)
Pentland, Norman




Perry, Ernest G.


Brown, Ronald (Shoreditch &amp; F'bury)
Hunter, Adam
Prentice, Rt. Hn. Reg.


Buchan, Norman
Jenkins, Hugh (Putney)
Prescott, John


Butter, Mrs. Joyce (Wood Green)
Jenkins, Rt. Hn. Roy (Stechford)
Price, J. T. (Westhoughton)


Campbell, I. (Dunbartonshire, W.)
Johnson, Carol (Lewisham, S.)
Probert, Arthur


Carmichael, Neil
Johnson, James (K'ston-on-Hull, W.)
Rankin, John


Carter, Ray (Birmingh'm, Northfield)
Johnson, Walter (Derby, S.)
Rhodes, Geoffrey


Carter-Jones, Lewis (Eccles)
Jones, Barry (Flint, E.)
Richard, Ivor


Castle, Rt. Hn. Barbara
Jones, Dan (Burnley)
Roberts, Albert (Normanton)


Cocks, Michael (Bristol, S.)
Jones,Rt.Hn.Sir Etwyn(W.Ham,8.)
Robertson, John (Paisley)


Cohen, Stanley
Jones, Gwynoro (Carmarthen)
Roderick,Caerwyn E.(Br'c'n&amp;R'dnor)


Coleman, Donald
Judd, Frank
Ross, Rt. Hn. William (Kilmarnock)


Concannon, J. D.
Kaufman, Gerald
Sheldon, Robert (Ashton-under-Lyne)


Conlan, Bernard
Kelley, Richard
Shore, Rt. Hn. Peter (Stepney)


Corbet, Mrs. Freda
Kinnock, Neil
Skinner, Dennis


Crosland, Rt. Hn. Anthony
Lambie, David
Smith, John (Lanarkshire, N.)


Dalyell, Tam
Lamond, James
Spriggs, Leslie


Davidson, Arthur
Lawson, George
Stallard, A. W.


Davies, Denzil (Llanelly)
Leadbitter, Ted
Strauss, Rt. Hn. G. R.


Davies, Ifor (Gower)
Lee, Rt. Hn. Frederick
Summerskill, Hn. Dr. Shirley


Deakins, Eric
Lever, Rt. Hn. Harold



Delargy, H J.
Lewis, Arthur (W. Ham N.)
Taverne, Dick


Dell, Rt. Hn. Edmund

Thomas, Rt. Hn. George (cardiff, W.)


Dempsey, James
Lewis, Ron (Carlisle)
Thomas, Jeffrey (Abertillery)


Doig, Peter
Loughlin, Charles
Tomney, Frank


Dormand, J. D.
Lyon, Alexander W. (York)
Urwin, T. W.


Douglas-Mann, Bruce
Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson
Wainwright, Edwin


Eadie, Alex
McElhone, Frank
Wallace, George


Edwards, Robert (Bilston)
McGuire, Michael
Weitzman, David


Edwards, William (Merioneth)
Mackie, John
White, James (Glasgow, Pollok)


Ellis, Tom
Maclennan, Robert
Whitlock, William


English, Michael
McMillan, Tom (Glasgow, C.)
Willey, Rt. Hn. Frederick


Evans, Fred
McNamara, J. Kevin
Williams, Alan (Swansea, W.)


Fletcher, Raymond (Ilkeston)
MacPherson, Malcolm
Williams, W. T. (Warrington)


Fletcher, Ted (Darlington)
Marquand, David



Foley, Maurice
Mason, Rt. Hn. Roy
TELLERS FOR THE NOES:


Ford, Ben
Mellish, Rt. Hn. Robert
Mr. Joseph Harper and


Freeson, Reginald
Milne, Edward (Blyth)
Mr. John Golding.


Gordon Walker, Rt. Hn. P. C.
Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe)



Gourlay, Harry
Moyle, Roland